Mark2005

Shiloh, Every service I have ever attended includes a personal invitation for anyone to become Christian. Counselors are available to talk and pray with anyone who desires such.

Exactly why Joel is NOT approved by God. Christians in third world countries would love to know that their belief is in vain and that Christians in America go to mega churches to be told that God wants them to be healthy, wealthy and not worry about a thing Unbelievable That is NOT what Osteen teaches or has ever taught. Attend a service and you will see multi-millionaires in fine clothes sitting next to people off the street who don't have two nickels to rub together. Unlike the Night of Hope events in stadiums and arenas, the services at Lakewood are always free and no one is compelled to contribute financially.

Botz, I made that decision in 2001 at his congregation.

Joel has a unique calling that may be different from someone else's. I have listened to him --- either in person, via television or online --- for a number of years. Some of my personal experiences challenge the whole "God has a great plan for your life" message, but Joel has many good things to offer. He is similar to Jesus in that he brings God's message to his generation, just as Jesus did.

Strange but true story...... I met Joel's sister, Lisa Comes, in the early 2000s. She preaches a couple of times per month (usually on Wednesdays) and has been on staff at the church for more than 20 years. Lisa was a big influence in my life. She released her first book "You were made for more" (available at Walmart and many bookstores) just before Christmas last year and does speaking engagements all over the country, a bonafide celebrity. Last December, when my dad suffered a heart attack and I had to make an emergency trip back to Texas, I attended one of their services. I ran into Lisa afterward for the first time in at least 5 years. She recognized me and I told her what had happened. She was at a table signing copies of her new book with maybe 200-300 people in line. Yet, she stopped right there and took a couple of minutes to pray for me and my family. That really touched me and says a lot about who she and all of Joel's family are.

I don't think Joel, or his father John Osteen (who founded the church and died in 1999) ever really started out with the intent to make money or become popular. I don't think they ever sat down and decided "hey, this is what appeals to people, so let's do this". I think it is an outpouring of what they really believe. When John Osteen died in 1999, the church was certainly successful and large (8,000-seat auditorium), but not the megachurch is has become under Joel. In Joel's second year, they added a Saturday night service to accomodate the crowds. Then about five years later, purchased a larger facility. I'm not directly equating numbers with success. There are a lot of churches that may be big. If I had never met Joel, maybe I would feel less of a need to defend him. But I know he has a good heart and wants every person to be successful and happy. I will venture a guess that more people are concerned with improving their lives (in many different areas) than they are in finding some form of 'eternal life' or 'laying up treasures in heaven'. Joel understands that and tries to address their needs: how to find peace, how to have better relationships, how to live out many of Jesus' teachings, etc.

This guy is not really new. This issue has been debated for centuries. Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell everything he had and come follow him (Jesus). The ruler said "no thanks". Some will interpret this as God's call to everyone. I don't see it exactly that way. Maybe that is God's call to the people mentioned here. That is between them and God. I will not condemn them. Nor will I condemn anyone simply for being poor. On the other hand, I won't condemn someone who enjoys having a nice house, car, good job, money in the bank, etc. I personally feel that should be done in moderation and in accordance with one's needs. (Example: it would be silly of me as a single person to buy a 4-bedroom house or to spend $40,000 on a car instead of $20,000...... just my personal values). Bottom line: I'm not sure the poor are any more Christlike than the rich. Or vice versa.

I actually attended Osteen's church for quite a while, back long before they moved into their current facility. I have met he, his wife, his sister, his brother and his mother personally. You will never meet kinder, more compassionate people. I have also read a couple of his books. I am no expert on theology, but feel qualified to offer my impressions. First, please understand, that like any televised pastor, there is far more to the church than is communicated on television. They have education classes, home fellowship groups, 12-step groups and many other ways for people to get involved on a more personal level, to learn and grow. The church currently averages more than 25,000 people per week. It's more than just show up, sing a few songs, listen to a 30-minute feel good message and go home. They are one of the few churches I have ever visited that actually takes time out during the middle of the service to pray for people one-on-one. Have done so for many years. Now, in the new, bigger building, it presents more of a logistical challenge, and sometimes requires 10-15 minutes. But they do it. Anyone may come and request prayer for any reason, no questions asked. They also have an invitation for persons to become Christian at the close of each service. I can assure you Joel DOES believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, as do all the members of his family. Is Jesus the ONLY way? That's a gray area. But Jesus is certainly A WAY. Each person has a unique calling and Joel feels his calling is to uplift and encourage people, not to tear down other religions. There is a lot of negativity in the world and he tries to lift people up, bring a message that God cares about them and encourage them to trust God with their lives. He's as much pyschologist and motivational speaker as he is pastor. He admittedly would probably make a lousy Bible school teacher. He never went to seminary and probably doesn't know a word of Greek or Hebrew. If you want in-depth Bible teaching, you will likely find others who do it better. If you need to be encouraged, Joel may be your man. I have heard Joel answer direct questions about controversial topics, such as homosexuality. He will give his personal opinion, but also say he respects others who disagree and that how one treats people is far more important than winning a theology debate. He understands that there are some issues that tend to divide people and that is contrary to his calling. I have never heard Joel tell anyone they were going to hell (not a very encouraging thought), although he has mentioned hell occasionally in his sermons. He emphasizes that it is not God's will that any should perish. I have no idea --- and I suspect neither does he --- on what he believes regarding the afterlife, the idea of Jesus coming to earth, what is the unpardonable sin or Old Testament Israeli history. Others are likely more able to deal with those subjects. My one complaint might be that his messages tend to get a little predictable after a while. It's like eating ice cream for supper every day... eventually you run out of flavors to sample. That being said, he's a truly good person and I'm happy their church has grown so much over the last 12 years.

It's a fun little game, but don't read too much into it. Change up a few of the questions and perhaps all of our scores would be different.

The hatred for Muslims among Christians is almost as great as the hatred for Christians among Muslims. Each should have their own heaven.

You look at Protestant evangelical churches today. Who do they target? Families, people with money, people in positions of political influence, the rich, beautiful and talented. The more people, the more money, the bigger the buildings, the more influence in the community. No one wants the outcasts, the poor, those who suffer from illness. That's just the way the game is played in the US and Canada (maybe elsewhere, too). So, like any other group, they want to gain as many desirable followers/converts as possible. Some will claim that is why they "water down" their gospels. I suppose there is a middle ground here somewhere. If you are all "hell fire and brimstone, damn those sinners" it tends to turn people off and you don't attract as many. If you are too soft and tolerate everything, and just go for the money and people with money, people think you are nothing but a country club. I understand it is a hard line to walk.

Not YOU personally. The majority of Christians and leaders seem to delight in "damning those sinners". The hotter the flames, the better. Like it somehow justifies their position. The majority of Christians seem to have the position "God tells us we have to go out and make disciples of everyone, even the people we don't really like. Besides, the more people we get on our side, the more power and wealth and influence we have." I think most religious people --- Christians as well as other religions --- evangelize for their own benefits, not out of genuine concern for the well-being of someone else. I honestly cannot recall anyone ever saying "Mark, I love you and I want the best for you. And I believe Jesus will help you."

It just goes with the territory. You're not going to change it. So you can either 1) Resign yourself to accepting it. 2) Beat your head against a wall opposing it. 3) Relocate to some place more favorable. I was faced with a similar dilemma about 10 years ago, and I choose No. 3.

That's stretching it a bit. Are we to think Christians spread the gospel out of genuine concern for the fate of someone else? As opposed to their own agenda?

As Abraham once said in pleading for Sodom: "Will not the judge of all the earth do right?" I fully expect God to be fair. I think his justice demands it. I suspect that God could not live with himself if he punished a person unjustly. Somehow that justice gets tempered with mercy. The best way my mind can comprehend that is that the wicked are allowed to perish, to cease to exist. There are several places in Proverbs and Psalms that seem to affirm this as well. That would still satisfy the wages of sin as being death.

This bothers me.... a lot!! Even as a flawed, sometimes angry, individual, I would not throw my dog, my cat or my worst enemy into a lake of fire to cause them to suffer forever and ever. Maybe a little while, if they really do something terrible. But forever and ever? My heart is not so callous as to do that. So what kind of a God would do something like that to a human being, his highest creation, a being made in his own image? To cast them away into torment without end, forever and ever? I don't even have words for that kind of cruelty. To me, this is totally incompatible with a God of love. More likely, it is a human concept, developed thousands of years ago, as a way to scare others and keep them in line. "You better do right.... or else." Even the king needs to be afraid of something, if not in this lifetime, than the next. Thing of the torment Jesus endured while being crucified. Yet even that, as brutal as it was, lasted only for a finite period of time. Can you imagine a person being tormented like that endlessly, forever and ever? Not me.

Me thinks you should find a new place to live. In the words of one insurance company commercial: "Get to a better state"

Currently, the social justice viewpoint is that white people (specifically the usa) are the "oppressors" who need to give over their "unfair" wealth to everyone else. This is part of black liberation theology that is being preached by jeremiah wright and his ilk. The pastor that obama sat under for 20 years and whom he calls a mentor and spiritual advisor. I read the book that defines black liberation theology by jimmy cone. He states it quite clearly. Sheesh, that's not how I define social justice. Not even close. And I'm a socialist.

I was being somewhat sarcastic. I spent 2 years in a city in south Texas that was literally 10 miles from the Mexico/US border. Go to the shopping mall and you would see as many cars with Mexican license plates as American plates. I felt out of place because I spoke very little Spanish. And, yes, I did cross the border several times. Nice way to be a tourist for a day, but I had no desire to live there. So, yeah, I understand. I understand there are certain parts of the US that are basically Mexican-American. If you don't want that type of culture, don't live there, because no one person or group is going to change that fact.

Define truth.

The Grand Canyon is like 100 zillion years old, right?

I have read the OT at least 14 times through and couldn't name all the Kings of Israel without looking them up. It helped that the quiz was multiple choice. Most of the question were easy, but there were a couple I answered by process of elimination. By the way, I noticed your group is listed as seeker, and yet you did better than many of the Christians here. Are you studying theology? Only informally. Although I mulled the idea of going to Bible College once. The questions in this quiz didn't strike me as that hard. Like "Who wrote the Book of Acts? Dr. Seuss???" Who's going to pick that answer!

600 miles? On foot? That's NUTS!!

Yep, you will. Might have to take a number and get in line. A few more measures like these and Arizona might get ousted from the U.S. Of course, it could always become a part of Mexico and few would know the difference.

Wow, I got 97 percent. I agree the questions were not all that hard. If they had asked me to name all the kings of Israel, for instance, I would not have done so well.