Trust & Obey

This is a common misunderstanding with those who do not hold the pre-trib view. The "Day of the Lord' and the rapture of the church are 2 different things. The passage above speaking of "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is in reference to the 2nd Coming of Christ. It is important to note that during the 2nd Coming Jesus returns with His Church to the earth! Here is the view of Christ's 2nd Coming from the book of Revelation: Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. You see, Christ returns with His Bride at the 2nd Coming, He isn't coming for His bride. And, this is in perfect accordance with Jewish custom, as my Jewish brothers and sisters on this board will affirm. In Jewish custom, a young man would build an addition to his father's house for him and his bride-to-be. After he finished building it his father would give him permission by sounding a trumpet the man (bridegroom) would go to fetch his woman (bride). After they were married, the bridegroom and bride would go off into the newly constructed bride chamber for 7 days. At the end of 7 days the Bridegroom would bring his Bride out to meet the rest of the family and community. This has HUGE significance. Because, Jesus is our Bridegroom and we are His Bride. Just like in Jewish custom, Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us: Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Jesus is preparing a place for us. Soon, Jesus will come and "receive us unto Himself." This will happen at the beginning of the Tribulation period and we, the Church, will be off the the Lord for... 7 years.... just like in Jewish custom. Oh, you may say, I thought Jewish custom was for 7 days??? True, but remember: Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. God works in sevens. Seven days in a week. Jewish calendars operate by "weeks of years," or groups of 7. Similar to our "decades" which consist of 10 years. So, after we are off with our Lord for 7 years he will then emerge from Heaven with us (Rev 19:11-14) to "show us off to the community (in this case, the world)," just like in Jewish tradition. I could write about the pre-trib rapture for hours one end. But, I'll leave you with a few examples, or types of the rapture in the Bible. In the book of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego are forced to go through the fiery furnace. And, indeed they do go through it and God preserves them in it. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego become an OT picture, or type, of Israel being preserved through the Tribulation. But, where is Daniel in all of this? Daniel is mysteriously absent during this very significant time. Daniel indeed is absent. And, he (Daniel) is a picture, or type, or the Church being absent during the Great Tribulation (GT). Another picture we are given of this... In the flood, Noah was sealed in the ark and preserved through the period of God's judgment of the earth. Noah becomes a type/picture of Israel being preserved through the GT. But, where is the Church's picture of not being present during God's judgment (in this case, it was the flood). Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Just before the flood came upon the earth in Gen. chap 7, God miraculously "translates" Enoch before ever dying! Enoch is a type and picture of the Church being "raptured" or "taken" by God before judment. Remember guys/gals, we are never told to watch for Antichrist, we are told to be on the lookout for Jesus Christ. If Jesus doesn't come for His church until AFTER the GT, then there is no sense of urgency and expectancy, for it that were true we could simply count the days until the end of the GT that Daniel gives us. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. The idea that "Jesus could come at any time" is an idea that Jesus conveyed all throughout His ministry. Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. ... Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. ... Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Mar 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. ... Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. A quick note of mention here. Jesus says to be sure not to get weighed down with drunkenness and cares of this life so that His return for His Church is a surprise to us. My question: In the GT it will be a time of suffering and turmoil for all. God will be pouring out His judgments... do you really think it would be possible during this horrendous time to be concerned with "cares of this life?" Obviously, the phrase Jesus used of "lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life" conveys the idea that it will be "business as usual." Finally, it says "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Why would Jesus tell us to pray that we "may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" if there is no way to escape it all?

The "rapture" is a biblical doctrine found in 1 Thes. 4: 1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. The word "rapture" does not exist in the english version of the Bible. But, it does exist in the Latin Vulgate in the form of rapturos. It literally means "to take by force." In the KJV it is translated "caught up." In the passage above Paul clearly taught that some believers will not die a physical death. A generation of believers will be transformed "in the blink of an eye" into their heavenly bodies. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (die a physical death), but we shall all be changed (into our heavenly bodies), 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The debate isn't really whether or not it is going to happen. The debate is about when it is going to happen. I hold the position that it happens before the Great Tribulation begins. There are many, many reasons for this and it's late so I don't want to get too deep into it. But, one thing I'll point out is what Paul says above in 1 Thes. 4:18. Immediately after telling the Thessalonian church this he says "Wherefore comfort one another with these words." The idea of the rapture is supposed to be "comforting." If the rapture happens at the end of the Great Tribulation, where is the comfort? How comforting is it to go throught the Tribulation and then get raptured when it is all over? How comforting is it to know that you are going to experience the bowls, vials, and trumpet judgments? If you are post-trib then you do not have any comfort from the promise to be caught up, and you will sense this any time you talk with a post-tribber they are almost "anti-rapture" to a passion. And, with good reason, for if you believe you will have to endure the worst 3.5 years of human history then the rapture is 3.5 years too late. This is a topic of great interest to me and I've put in a lot of time studying the issue. It is an exciting doctrine in these end times. You can go into the Eschatology forum and see 3 pinned threads there about the rapture. A thread for each of the 3 main views... Pre-trib (the most popular and, might I add, biblically accurate, and VERY comforting), mid-trib (still comforting), post-trib (not comforting in the least).

Tishri, I hope I didn't miscommunicate. I never said to "keep your ideas to yourself." Please share them. That is what this board is for. God bless!

Jesus did say, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear!" Well, you and I have ears to hear. Hear! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The outline of the book of Revelations is found in chapter 14 if anyone is interested...It's written a special way (so your "endtimes" timeline is right there if ya want to look at it) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I thought the outline was in chapter 1? Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (past), and the things which are (present), and the things which shall be hereafter (future); Past, present, future. Chronolgoical. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> but people smarter than me have figured out that that section begins at chapter 14...interesting huh? I know I had a list somewhere of other books( of the Bible) written that way ...I'll go look for it <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tishri, I think we should all be coming to our own conclusions on scripture. We cannot just take an author's "word for it." Study the book of Revelation yourself, without the use of commentaries. Read through it a few times and get a grip on it before you introduce the ideas of others. If you just dive into someone else's opinion on it you are simply being indoctrinated. God bless.

300 million of us don't pay most of the taxes. Keep playing with the numbers. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Some pay double and some pay much more some pay less and some noneat all, but that is the average and our family is about average so it is what we pay, and that is where I was going, just speaking for myself and my wife saying it is ok for us. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think his point was that you could probably chop off 100-125 million right off the top because they are children. Then, another 25 million are welfare... then another 10 million don't file or pay taxes, etc. , etc. So, it ends up being about 100 million people paying.

Fluffy, don't forget that Israel gained the land and expanded their border in defense after being attacked by literally all of her neighbors. Go take the treaty talk to the Arabs. They're the ones who violate every condition, promise, and cease-fire ever entered in to.

And your point is?

I hope you live there then.

Jesus did say, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear!" Well, you and I have ears to hear. Hear! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The outline of the book of Revelations is found in chapter 14 if anyone is interested...It's written a special way (so your "endtimes" timeline is right there if ya want to look at it) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I thought the outline was in chapter 1? Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (past), and the things which are (present), and the things which shall be hereafter (future); Past, present, future. Chronolgoical.

I was being humorous, but what I said was true the same time. My wife goes away frequently for days at a time and I play "Mr. Mom." I do the cooking, cleaning, changing diapers, washing clothes, etc. and would quit my day job in New York minute to do it full time. As a matter of fact, my house is the cleanest when I am home alone with the kids. I have a little bit of a stronger work ethic than my wife and I life to clean things up promptly, rather than letting a mess sit around for 3 or 4 hours before addressing it. It is a much more fulfilling thing to spend your days with your children then it is in the business world... for me, anyways. Sure, there can be tough moments, but the good definitely outweighs the bad. Plus, she never has to be concerned about money, deadlines, or anything else. She even tells me how great it is that everyone is just "handled."

Suzanne, that is a wonderful testimony. God bless.

Great topic, angels. I expect my wife to be 100% submissive to me as long as it is in accordance with the word of God. In order for things to run smoothly there cannot be a battle between the headship in the home. Honestly, I think the woman has it pretty good. I take care of everything and all she has to do is: a) take care of the children b) take care of the home What a wonderfully stress-free life that is. But, I do help with the chores and the kids because I enjoy it. My wife and I do Bible studies together in the evening and that really helps to keep us in unison. God bless.

In the parable of the Prodigal Son... did the Prodigal Son ever, at any time, cease to be the son of his father? Could he have ceased to be the son of his father? Those who are truly saved are kept by Jesus Christ, Himself, and the power of God. Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Those who "appear to have been saved," but then "appear to walk away" were never truly saved to begin with. Jesus illustrated that in the parable of the sower. 3 of the 4 soils appeared to be good soil. There was a positive response out of 3 of them, yet only 1 of them produced fruit. Only 1 of the soils had saving faith, even though 2 others showed initial signs of salvation. So, even though it may appear that someone gets saved, that isn't always the case. They could have rocky or thorny soil.

The point is that salvation happens instantaneously when you are indwelt and sealed with the Holy Spirit. There are practical aspects that need to be worked out, like sanctification and development of godly character, but this is not salvation. True believers WILL endure to the end because they are sealed with the Spirit. So, it isn't persevering that earns us salvation, rather it is perseverance that PROVES we are saved. But, I do understand your position as I am very familiar wtih this topic. There are legitimate arguments on both sides of the aisle which is why this is such a debated topic. But, I think that if you study it closely you'll see that salvation is all of God, and none of us. God bless.

Jesus did say, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear!" Well, you and I have ears to hear. Hear!

An interesting passage to consider is this encounter with Jesus. In this encounter Jesus was plainly asked what the "works of God" were: Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.[/b[ Jesus answer was "to believe on Him (Jesus) that He (God) hath sent." Jesus didn't give him a long list of rules and regulations. The "work of God" is belief and faith. That is the whole thing. Simply believe.

Hey, Fluffy The evidence given on the website are the actual advertisements from Ford promoting homosexuality and perversion, in general. How can you debate that? Are those ads phonies that the "biased website" created for defamation?

All of the evidence that Ford does support is is on that www.boycottford.com website. It really isn't debateable. But, I understand your position. All companies support something that is ungodly. We are in the world, after all.

Caroline, the commandments Jesus is speaking of is "love," as I've pointed out before. Please read Galatians Ch.3 a couple of times and ponder it. God bless. Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

WSB, the letters to the 7 churches actually have multiple applications. Although the letter was indeed written to a specific church in that day, it has historical and present day applications. Each church represents a period of church history, and each letter also refers to a specific portion of the body of Christ. I have an article by Chuch Missler that I'm going to paste below because I think it is a great summary of the issue:

Yes. THere is also a website on this by the AFA. www.boycottford.com

Let me add one into the mix. Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Our works have nothing to do with our salvation. We saved simply based upon God's loving mercy towards us.

Jesus is Lord. In that I think we all agree.

I believe that if someone is legitimately saved, they cannot lose it <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'll give an AMEN to what pastoreric just said and let him answer. The one thing I request here is that others that read this and disagree with the position of OSAS do not turn this thread into a Calvin/Arminius debate. We already have one of those pinned in the Doctrinal Forum.

Great insight, Sam. When the apostle Paul introduced himself in his epistles he often used the term "a servant." Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Phi 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; The term for servant here in the Greek is doulos. The doulos was a "bond-servant." That is, they were a servant by choice. The doulos did not own any property, have any rights, and did not even have control or possession of their own children. Everything belonged to their master/lord and was at the disposal of them. The master could decide to sell the children of the servant, if he so desired. That is what it means to be a servant of God. We are a doulos. We have chosen to become slaves of Jesus Christ. We trust everything into His hands do as He wills.