His Ambassador

I don't believe the Lord accepts or rewards us according to how much we love Him. That is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture as a condition of salvation. I also think to try to put our feelings for the Lord into lofty terms makes us look like braggers. And trying to measure our "love" for Him puts that love in the category of romantic love and that we cannot due because that is not the type of relationship we have with Jesus. I don't have a romantic relationship with my Lord. I have a "gratitude" relationship and find great happiness when chooses to bless me imperfect sinner that I am.

It's interesting that a lot of people like to use that verse and fail to acknowledge the fact that God DOES allow divorce for adultery and desertion. Why is that?

I find debating the age of the Earth as if one's salvation depended on it ridiculous.. The Bible say "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. The Earth was void and without form and darkness was on the face of the deep." It does not say when the beginning was. I believe God caused the Earth to become that way and that the dinosaurs existed on the Earth before God caused it to be that way. The following verses show God speaking into existence the things we know today (sun, sky, fish, foul, land, man, etc). We have come to call that "creation". That word is not found in those verses. But of all the things God brought into existence at that time the Earth was not one of them. God was "re-creating" the Earth and adding to it those things mentioned in Gen. 1:3 and beyond. This time God will destroy the heavens and the Earth and created an entirely new one where we will spend eternity with Him (Rev. 20, 21). So kudos for Pat. He's right on.

Your point? Your original statement included this: The resurrection of the dead (usually called the "first resurrection") has already occurred in the spiritual realm. The point is that this statement is not scriptural. The first resurrection is not in the spiritual realm as you stated and furthermore I have never read in scripture of a spiritual resurrection. Where is it mentioned? The Bible does not say WHERE the first resurrection takes place. YOUR assumption is that it takes place in the physical realm. The scriptures indeed do say where the first resurrection takes place and each of those passages that I posted speak of the resurrection of the bodies of the saints. And that is what Paul is teaching in 1 Cor 15:42-49 when he specifically says So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. And earlier in 15:12-14 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Now v20-25 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. V35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” back to those already shown in v42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. So we see the scriptures do state when the first resurrection takes place and that is what is being shown here and spoken of in Revelation. We see that the resurrection is always talking about the resurrection of the body. And besides, there never is a 2nd resurrection every mentioned in scripture. The resurrection of Jesus is always spoken of but the first resurrection is always talking about of the bodies of the saints. It your obligation to show where you get that the first resurrection means what you said, which is contrary to what the scriptures actually say about the first resurrection. I Thes. 4:16 "And the dead in Christ shall rise first."

So if our Spirits leave our bodies directly to go to God, why does Solomon say that our Spirits travel to him at the moment of physical death? Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. This does not say WHEN the spirit returns. And why does Paul say that the Spirit may be "saved in the day of Christ" if it resurected? This means that spirit will be among the saved when Jesus returns. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:5 Why would Paul bother stating that women should care that their Spirits be holy if their Spirits are ressurected and in heaven? You're getting a little desperate here. This is talking about women's conduct. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. 1 Corinthians 7:34 If the Spirit is in Heaven, why does Paul state that it is in our hearts? Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest (seal) of the Spirit in our hearts. 2 Corinthians 1:22 This is talking about the seal of the HOLY Spirit. You need to be careful to know what EXACTLY the Scripture you use is saying.

In ages past when God spoke to people and they shared it they were not told to "prove" what they were saying. If you'll notice I have carried on a discussion. I think your problem (and the problem of many Christians) is that what I've shared is different from what you have been taught. Frankly, you can't "prove" what you've been taught. All you can do is say "this is what X number of Biblical teacher have said it means." I'm not disallowing anyone to comment. I just haven't been called to prove it or argue about it. You are very presumptuous. You assume that I have been reading your posts. I have not. I did, however, through scanning the threads, came across where you refused to explain what you mean or back it with scripture. This is what I speak to. Again, this is a discussion forum where people discuss thoughts and ideas. I do not need to explain what I mean. It's right there in plain English. It can be backed with the same Scripture the rapture cult uses for their rapture theory. Why come to a discussion forum when you don't want to discuss? Are you here to reveal your mysteries to us and then leave us hanging? Is this the brotherly love Jesus taught you? Are you kidding? I have discussed. If you're "hanging" talk to God about it. Don't you hear from Him? God I have complete confidence in. Your claims to have special revelations is what I am having trouble with. Check the underlined words in bold above. Yes, I talk with God and He has not mentioned you at all ... Talk to Him about what He has revealed to me not about ME. I am not important. I am just a poor sinner saved by grace and His humble servant. I have been talking to him for many years. Yet, the point is, when I come forth with something He has pointed out, I include an explanation to what He has shown me, and this is what I was suggesting you do. Why do you find it so hard to share what you believe about you revelations? I have shown you what He told me. There's nothing to "explain". It's printed in plain English. Is English not your first language?

When you say "Nothing I've said contradicts Scripture only what your teachers have added to it" you say it without having provided the Scriptural support that you claim that your "revelation" has. I will present my view and support it with Scripture, and it is my hope that you will do likewise. Every believer has died with Christ and has been raised up with him to walk in newness of life. This process of resurrection is not instantaneous and is called Sanctification - the process by which we are made (while still on this earth) more and more like unto Christ: Romans 6:3-11 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life... Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: This process will not be completed while we are yet on this earth because of the sin principle in us: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23 After we die, however, the sin principle will be destroyed, and we will be raised with incorruptible bodies at the final resurrection: 1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. However, before this corporeal resurrection, I would suggest that the spirits of the believers await this ultimate resurrection in Paradise. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43 Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. I have provided the same Scriptural support the members of the rapture cult have provided - none. Because the order of events and time for the "rapture" is not found in Scripture. The "where" of "The dead in Christ will rise....." is not found in Scripture. Many have posted here as if I personally attacked their entire belief system. All I have done is share what God has shown me about where the resurrection of the dead took place. If that shakes your entire belief system then you'd better re-check what you believe. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. Perhaps you should look at more then just your bible, into the Greek also. It is there and if your version of the bible excludes it, what good is your version if it excludes His words? The dead in Christ have already risen directly into the spiritual realm and are now in Paradise with the Lord. Those of us who are alive when the Lord returns will be caught up with Him. A believer who dies today goes directly to be with the Lord in Paradise.

Good point. Spirits are immortal - why on earth would they need to be ressurected? It is the body that must be ressurected and glorified. The first resurrection has taken place. The dead in Christ were resurrected from their bodies directly into the spiritual realm and are now in Paradise with the Lord. A Believer who dies today goes directly to Paradise to be with the Lord and does not sleep in the grave.

Your point? Your original statement included this: The resurrection of the dead (usually called the "first resurrection") has already occurred in the spiritual realm. The point is that this statement is not scriptural. The first resurrection is not in the spiritual realm as you stated and furthermore I have never read in scripture of a spiritual resurrection. Where is it mentioned? The Bible does not say WHERE the first resurrection takes place. YOUR assumption is that it takes place in the physical realm.

Your point?

When you say "Nothing I've said contradicts Scripture only what your teachers have added to it" you say it without having provided the Scriptural support that you claim that your "revelation" has. I will present my view and support it with Scripture, and it is my hope that you will do likewise. Every believer has died with Christ and has been raised up with him to walk in newness of life. This process of resurrection is not instantaneous and is called Sanctification - the process by which we are made (while still on this earth) more and more like unto Christ: Romans 6:3-11 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life... Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: This process will not be completed while we are yet on this earth because of the sin principle in us: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23 After we die, however, the sin principle will be destroyed, and we will be raised with incorruptible bodies at the final resurrection: 1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. However, before this corporeal resurrection, I would suggest that the spirits of the believers await this ultimate resurrection in Paradise. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43 Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. I have provided the same Scriptural support the members of the rapture cult have provided - none. Because the order of events and time for the "rapture" is not found in Scripture. The "where" of "The dead in Christ will rise....." is not found in Scripture. Many have posted here as if I personally attacked their entire belief system. All I have done is share what God has shown me about where the resurrection of the dead took place. If that shakes your entire belief system then you'd better re-check what you believe.

In ages past when God spoke to people and they shared it they were not told to "prove" what they were saying. If you'll notice I have carried on a discussion. I think your problem (and the problem of many Christians) is that what I've shared is different from what you have been taught. Frankly, you can't "prove" what you've been taught. All you can do is say "this is what X number of Biblical teacher have said it means." I'm not disallowing anyone to comment. I just haven't been called to prove it or argue about it. You are very presumptuous. You assume that I have been reading your posts. I have not. I did, however, through scanning the threads, came across where you refused to explain what you mean or back it with scripture. This is what I speak to. Again, this is a discussion forum where people discuss thoughts and ideas. I do not need to explain what I mean. It's right there in plain English. It can be backed with the same Scripture the rapture cult uses for their rapture theory. Why come to a discussion forum when you don't want to discuss? Are you here to reveal your mysteries to us and then leave us hanging? Is this the brotherly love Jesus taught you? Are you kidding? I have discussed. If you're "hanging" talk to God about it. Don't you hear from Him? God I have complete confidence in. Your claims to have special revelations is what I am having trouble with. Check the underlined words in bold above. Yes, I talk with God and He has not mentioned you at all ... Talk to Him about what He has revealed to me not about ME. I am not important. I am just a poor sinner saved by grace and His humble servant.

The saints that come with Jesus when He comes to set up His Millennial Kingdom are those who have already died.

Can you present Scripture to substantiate this claim? I'm not challenging in a negative way - just curious. Are you refering to our being "seated with Christ in the heavenly places"? (Ephesians 2:6) There is none that specifically says the trumpet will sound in the spiritual realm. As I said God revealed that to me through a prophetess back in the 80s. I am concerned with this line of thinking. 2 Pet. 1:19-21 19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[b] 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. It's not my interpretation, It's God's. Ask Him. So you are saying you are the voice of God? A modern day Prophet with new revelation? You are trying every way you can think of to insult me but it's not going to work. I am neither the voice of God nor a prophet. Just a Believer sharing what God has shown me. That's all I'm going to say on this subject. His Ambassador if you cannot support your position with Scripture I suggest you discontinue this interpretation you say is God's. I'm not trying to insult you. I'm trying to show you the fallacy of your thinking using Scripture as in previous posts... Post #52 for example: Experience (or someone's revelation) should never trump Scripture. I pray you can see this. God bless, GE Nothing I've said contradicts Scripture only what your teachers have added to it. I have been a Believer since 1949 and have developed a deeper relationship with God then I ever thought possible. Don't suppose to be more Spiritually mature than me.

Can you present Scripture to substantiate this claim? I'm not challenging in a negative way - just curious. Are you refering to our being "seated with Christ in the heavenly places"? (Ephesians 2:6) There is none that specifically says the trumpet will sound in the spiritual realm. As I said God revealed that to me through a prophetess back in the 80s. I am concerned with this line of thinking. 2 Pet. 1:19-21 19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[b] 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. It's not my interpretation, It's God's. Ask Him. So you are saying you are the voice of God? A modern day Prophet with new revelation? You are trying every way you can think of to insult me but it's not going to work. I am neither the voice of God nor a prophet. Just a Believer sharing what God has shown me. That's all I'm going to say on this subject.

What are you afraid of? It has noting to do with the Gospel. The Gospel if found in John 3:16.

Can you present Scripture to substantiate this claim? I'm not challenging in a negative way - just curious. Are you refering to our being "seated with Christ in the heavenly places"? (Ephesians 2:6) There is none that specifically says the trumpet will sound in the spiritual realm. As I said God revealed that to me through a prophetess back in the 80s. I am concerned with this line of thinking. 2 Pet. 1:19-21 19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed,[a] which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,[b] 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God[c] spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. It's not my interpretation, It's God's. Ask Him.

In ages past when God spoke to people and they shared it they were not told to "prove" what they were saying. If you'll notice I have carried on a discussion. I think your problem (and the problem of many Christians) is that what I've shared is different from what you have been taught. Frankly, you can't "prove" what you've been taught. All you can do is say "this is what X number of Biblical teacher have said it means." I'm not disallowing anyone to comment. I just haven't been called to prove it or argue about it. You are very presumptuous. You assume that I have been reading your posts. I have not. I did, however, through scanning the threads, came across where you refused to explain what you mean or back it with scripture. This is what I speak to. Again, this is a discussion forum where people discuss thoughts and ideas. I do not need to explain what I mean. It's right there in plain English. It can be backed with the same Scripture the rapture cult uses for their rapture theory. Why come to a discussion forum when you don't want to discuss? Are you here to reveal your mysteries to us and then leave us hanging? Is this the brotherly love Jesus taught you? Are you kidding? I have discussed. If you're "hanging" talk to God about it. Don't you hear from Him?

Just because some Christians believe in the rapture (myself included) does not mean that they/we are a cult. Christians will always have different viewpoints on spiritual matters because of our limited perception of the eternal. Exactly.

In ages past when God spoke to people and they shared it they were not told to "prove" what they were saying. If you'll notice I have carried on a discussion. I think your problem (and the problem of many Christians) is that what I've shared is different from what you have been taught. Frankly, you can't "prove" what you've been taught. All you can do is say "this is what X number of Biblical teacher have said it means." I'm not disallowing anyone to comment. I just haven't been called to prove it or argue about it. You are very presumptuous. You assume that I have been reading your posts. I have not. I did, however, through scanning the threads, came across where you refused to explain what you mean or back it with scripture. This is what I speak to. Again, this is a discussion forum where people discuss thoughts and ideas. I do not need to explain what I mean. It's right there in plain English. It can be backed with the same Scripture the rapture cult uses for their rapture theory.

A Christian can and should prove he is right by using God's Word - the Bible. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12 You can't "prove" what you believe regarding the subject of this thread with the Bible.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure... Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. I didn't add to His word, God did.

In ages past when God spoke to people and they shared it they were not told to "prove" what they were saying. If you'll notice I have carried on a discussion. I think your problem (and the problem of many Christians) is that what I've shared is different from what you have been taught. Frankly, you can't "prove" what you've been taught. All you can do is say "this is what X number of Biblical teacher have said it means." I'm not disallowing anyone to comment. I just haven't been called to prove it or argue about it.

There is a serious problem with this reasoning. Let me explain. Let's say that I attend Grace Church in TimBuckTwo. Suddenly I recieve (or think that I recieve) a revelation from God telling me that I need a Mercedes-Benz and that the congregation must provide the funds to pay for it. I present my revelation to the leadership and they are understandably incredulous. They ask me to substantiate my claim by providing Scripture to show how they can trust that what I am saying is from God. I reply that I am there simply to inform them of the revelation I recieved from God and that they must pray to God for substantiation. I don't think that this is a good way of working things - especially because it doesn't have precedence in Scripture. We have a Revelation from God - the Bible. Any new revelation must conform or be shown to conform to God's existing revelation to man. Your example is ridiculous. What I shared is in Scripture. God just added the where it happened.

Hmm... Well, just make sure that you're not using this (I have not been called to "convince") as a way of getting around having to substantiate your claims. Our relationship with God is one of faith not science. If you want what I shared substantiated ask God. He is capable of talking to you if you listen.