wordsower

Bless him Jesus with great health, he is such a blessing.

Deafcanada, Welcome to worthy boards! I don't think there is any such scripture. I think this would be one of the mysteries we just don't know about. I agree the left behind books are fictional, but I dont' see anything wrong with reading them, sure beats Stephen King or some other garbage like that!

Deuteronomy 12 Deuteronomy is the book Jesus quoted most from in the NT. The name Deuteronomy means "second law" There is a lot to gather from this book and I wont interpret, only highlight some key verses. 1"These are the statutes and judgments which you shall be careful to observe in the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you to possess, all the days that you live on the earth. 2You shall utterly destroy all the places where the nations which you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. 3And you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and burn their wooden images with fire; you shall cut down the carved images of their gods and destroy their names from that place. 4You shall not worship the LORD your God with such things. 5"But you shall seek the place where the LORD your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go. 6There you shall take your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, your vowed offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. 7And there you shall eat before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice in all to which you have put your hand, you and your households, in which the LORD your God has blessed you. 8"You shall not at all do as we are doing here today every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes 9for as yet you have not come to the rest and the inheritance which the LORD your God is giving you. 10But when you cross over the Jordan and dwell in the land which the LORD your God is giving you to inherit, and He gives you rest from all your enemies round about, so that you dwell in safety, 11then there will be the place where the LORD your God chooses to make His name abide. There you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, and all your choice offerings which you vow to the LORD. 12And you shall rejoice before the LORD your God, you and your sons and your daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levimte who is within your gates, since he has no portion nor inheritance with you. 13Take heed to yourself that you do not offer your burnt offerings in every place that you see; 14but in the place which the LORD chooses, in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command you. 15"However, you may slaughter and eat meat within all your gates, whatever your heart desires, according to the blessing of the LORD your God which He has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, of the gazelle and the deer alike. 16Only you shall not eat the blood; you shall pour it on the earth like water. 17You may not eat within your gates the tithe of your grain or your new wine or your oil, of the firstborn of your herd or your flock, of any of your offerings which you vow, of your freewill offerings, or of the heave offering of your hand. 18But you must eat them before the LORD your God in the place which the LORD your God chooses, you and your son and your daughter, your male servant and your female servant, and the Levimte who is within your gates; and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God in all to which you put your hands. 19Take heed to yourself that you do not forsake the Levite as long as you live in your land. 20"When the LORD your God enlarges your border as He has promised you, and you say, "Let me eat meat,' because you long to eat meat, you may eat as much meat as your heart desires. 21If the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, then you may slaughter from your herd and from your flock which the LORD has given you, just as I have commanded you, and you may eat within your gates as much as your heart desires. 22Just as the gazelle and the deer are eaten, so you may eat them; the unclean and the clean alike may eat them. 23Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life; you may not eat the life with the meat. 24You shall not eat it; you shall pour it on the earth like water. 25You shall not eat it, that it may go well with you and your children after you, when you do what is right in the sight of the LORD. 26Only the holy things which you have, and your vowed offerings, you shall take and go to the place which the LORD chooses. 27And you shall offer your burnt offerings, the meat and the blood, on the altar of the LORD your God; and the blood of your sacrifices shall be poured out on the altar of the LORD your God, and you shall eat the meat. 28Observe and obey all these words which I command you, that it may go well with you and your children after you forever, when you do what is good and right in the sight of the LORD your God. Beware of False Gods 29"When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.' 31You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. 32"Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

Shiloh, You are confusing the New Jerusalem with the new earth. Don't have time to post all of those scriptures here right now. You also confuse Israel with the church. Exodus 31:12-18, God makes this very clear. "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." You're going to say you're Jewish, but in Christ there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, we are one and we are His body. But it also seems during this time God will re-institute animal sacrifice, Hosea 3:4 and Zechariah 14:21. So, under your reasoning we must sacrifice now also. When God prophesied of the day when he would pour out his Spirit, it was said, "This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing

Is 66, speaking to Israel, again, and speaking of the new earth during the millineum. Saints will be ruling and reigning with Christ but citizens of heaven, dwelling in the mansions prepared for us. From one moon to another and one Sabbath to another is everyday, as from today til next Saturday is everyday in between. Remember, Israel will mourn when they see Him returning with His saints and that is just the beginning of them. It means if you accepted the reality of Christ, you also understand that He fulfilled the Sabbath as the whole law. "To whom has the strong arm of the Lord been revealed??" If it has been revealed to you, then you understand that He took that arm to "push" Jesus down to earth, made a little lower than the angels and you believe. You understand the shadows and types and the Reality. If a person does not see this, they are still under the law.

A spiritual Sabbath Rest is perpetual, a physical Sabbath rest is a little hard to fathom since we will not tire or sleep or have nighttime.

Not only vegan, but it says every creature, sigh. I just know that they wont listen unless the Holy Spirit gets through to them. See my site.

What if THEY are Jewish or Messianic or Adventist or 7th day Baptists or Muslims or Hindu or Buddist or atheist? What then? ANYWAYS, don't most people eat out AFTER church? Ridiculous, but I still love ya

Shiloh, I honestly have not. I was TRYING to show the sunday church people the 7th day Sabbath and God showed me that the rest is in Jesus, not a day. Anyone who does not have Jesus still has just the day but with Jesus, He is all the rest you need, but you may certainly hold to a physical rest. Paul seemed quite astounded when he said he realized that the law was spiritual! I think that is the part you are missing, the spirit and truth separated from the natural. Natural will end, spiritual endures. My natural man died with Christ. Anywho........Suzanne still thinks we don't love people if we eat out on Sunday, regardless of the fact that Sunday isn't the Sabbath, so that seems like a much bigger issue than me resting "Today" in Jesus.

Shiloh, Read and try to understand:(I borrowed some of this from something a friend wrote long ago because I couldn't say it better myself) Resting on a particular day is not a bad thing. When a person has been an Adventist, however, the Sabbath will always have a different meaning than it does for most other people, even if they say it's not necessary for salvation. Paul said he could eat anything, even meat offered to idols, because he knew the idols were nothing. But he said that when a person was accustomed to idols, meat offered to idols had a different meaning because their conscience is defiled. (1 Corinthians 8) Also, in Acts 15 the council of Jerusalem said they had only four recommendations for Gentile Christians, "to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality." (Acts 15:29) The reason the Gentiles were told not to eat meat offered to idols was not that the meat was intrinsically sinful. Rather, the Gentiles had a whole cascade of memories and associations that would come alive if they did certain things associated with their pagan religion, including eating meat offered to idols. That didnt bother Paul; he had never worshiped idols. Ceremonially blessed meat did not affect him in any way. But the Gentiles had reactions hard-wired into their consciences. Adventists have the same connection to the Sabbath. I realize that I'm speaking rather strongly here, but Adventism does have a demonic spirit aswsociated with it. Because it was founded on a lie with a false prophet and elders who knowingly created doctrines based on her visions instead of strictly on the Bible, because the early Adventists were unrepentant when they set dates for Christ's return, Satan has a claim on the church. It was not founded on the gospel. God is not responsible for deception. Satan has a claim on the church, and the Sabbath has a supernatural hold on Adventists. Because it was the shadow of the coming Messiah, it was a powerful deception for Satan to instill into this entire church. No matter what Adventists say, the Sabbath is deeply ingrained in them in a way they cannot explain. It has a spiritual hold on them. It becomes first and foremost, far above Jesus or grace or the blood or any good news. The Sabbath is an idol to the Adventist church. They care more about whether or not you watch tv on the Sabbath than your relationship with Christ, as if they knew what that would look like anyways. I realized I could not observe the day with a new attitude. We had to completely let it go because it is associated with a whole cascade of memories and deep spiritual reactions and associations in an Adventist's or former Adventist's conscience. For those of us who have kept the Sabbath as Adventists, the seventh day must be jettisoned completely. The way it was treated in our past made it part of a spiritual bondage, and we must let it go. I am sure that people react differently to different things and there is a reason Paul wrote Romans 14. It is quite clear there that your position and mine are both acceptable and we need to both be fully convinced in our own mind. We are all individuals and individually dealt with by the Holy Spirit according to His purpose. I just want you to try to see where I come from. I do see where you come from and support you 100%. We are both gonna see glory!

Ray, You don't have to take it at church. Jesus has made us a kingdom of priests and you can just get some juice and crackers and read the word and take it at home as often as you wish. I have taken it at home and at work and church. Don't ditch the church for this reason. My church offers communion every week privately if you just ask a deacon they will give it to you but we too, have it corporately, usually at the evening service, I think mostly because there are a lot of guests in the morning services and they don't want people taking communion if they don't know what they are doing. Be careful of offenses.

Shiloh, My question was sincere and I'd appreciate a sincere answer. I realize that it is not burdensome for you because you don't have to sit in your tent all day and eat manna. No mixing wool and linen, no building fires on the Sabbath, sacrificing animals daily for sins, cleasing rituals, etc...........yes, the law was burdensome if it was kept to the letter. My question is, if it is not kept to the letter, what is the point? Yod?

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. All those that do not endure never got that point....there is no where else but Jesus. He is all in all!

I don't think anyone says the power is in the hankerchief. Just as there is none in annointing oil. The power is of God. The prophet Elijah told the widow to give him her last cake. Reason would have said he was crazy, but she believed and gave it to him in faith and God increased her food. It's more about what you believe God will do, than the symbols used. We need to leave more room for bearing with eachother in love. Some are ignorant in the faith but God loves them just as much as He does us.

Yod, Can I ask a sincere question? Who really observes the Jewish Sabbath as it was commanded, with no travelling, carrying, spitting, leaving the tent, etc........? If you observe it without all of the bondage, is that really observing it? And then, what exactly is the point? The bondage part of it was intended to be bondage. That was part of the plan. What was the purpose for the Sabbath?

Some say Moses is an example of a sin unto death. He struck the rock, which symbolized Christ and God took him out. You can read the story and decide for yourself. I've heard people use this in saved people that have strayed and gone their own way and God takes them out before they do anymore damage here. I'm not sure on that one.

Yahsway, I correspond with angry Adventists all the time, so I don't get easily offended. Presently my mother is on a quest to show me how deceived I am. Regarding the Sabbath, I'll just post here part of my testimony. I am not one that will say the Sabbath was changed or deleted. My conviction is that it was fulfilled in Christ. I was invited to my neighbor's "Sunday" church (oh horrors) three years ago and I just loved it, I hadn't really had much contact with church or God since I grew up and went on my own, the SDA church really messed me up there, I was quite mad at God, if there was a God. That was my state. It was a little Pentecostal church. The first day I knew there was something different about these people. They were real, they were happy, the were so genuine and I was not used to that in church. After attending a few weeks I knew I had to convince these people to shut down on Sunday and observe the Sabbath, after all, they were sincere, right? I got my Bible out and looked up every scripture I could find under sabbath, then commandment, then law. As I read the words before me I couldn't believe my eyes! I was reading about faith and grace and old covenent and new covenent and laws of Moses and Commandments left after the cross and I prayed, "God, show me the sabbath so that I can enlighten these people. Lord, they're good people and they need the truth, help me out here!" I still read what I thought to be saying I am under grace and not works or the law. I was at work on a Tuesday before lunch and got the dreaded call from daycare that my son was sick and I had to pick him up. I seldom miss work and I never like to be out, but I had to go home. I picked my son up and he was sick! I prayed for the Lord to make him well so I could go to work the next morning, I had faith and I got up Wednesday at the regular time to get ready and he was still sick. I took the opportunity to study my Bible some more. This went on for the rest of the week. At some point in the week I changed my prayer to: "God, I want to do your will, these scriptures seem to be pointing me to something I've never been taught and I need to know this is your will. Whatever your will is, I want to do it." He led me to scripture after scripture explaining to me so plainly that Jesus died on the cross to save me from my sin and the ordinances of the law and that was the only thing that could save me! I felt like a million pounds had been lifted off of me and I was so happy and excited, I just had to call everyone and tell them! I called my cousin who recently started going back to the SDA church about my revelation and she assured me that I still had to keep the 4th commandment despite the grace. I knew it didn't say in there anywhere that I had to go to church on Sunday, so was she right? I searched some more and prayed and found Hebrews 4:4-9: For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; and again in this place: They shall not enter My Rest." Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and to those whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, he He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. WOW!!!! It wasn't a day, it was a permanent peace, a rest like you can never know until you've been saved by grace! I noticed it was capitalized too. I prayed, "Lord, let me know without a shadow of a doubt that it is true!" Next, he sent me to Hebrews 10:32&35: ( But recall the former days in which after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and enduring possesion for yourselves in heaven. Therefore, do not cast away your confidence which has great reward.) I can not describe to you what I felt when I read those verses, every hair on me stood up, every chill bump came up and the presence of God was so strong I can not find words to describe it. I'm so glad to have found common ground with Yod. He is probably the first Sabbatarian I have met that I feel really thinks I'm ok with God either way and I feel the same about him. God knows I would do absolutely anything for Him and if I truly believed He wanted me to observe the Sabbath I'd do it in a second. I'd stand on my head all day if that is what He asked. I'm fully convinced in my mind and I know He loves me and I'm safe with Him! Sabra

Shiloh, I'm not condoning the man in any way. He was a terrible man, he deserves what he gets as does Hitler and any other dictator/murderer. Vengeance is Mine says the Lord, I will repay. Don't take me out of context. Jesus said, love your enemies, bless those that curse you, pray for those that despitefully use you. Take it up with Him.

John MacArthur is ok and I used to listen to him everyday but he is a little on the extreme conservative side. He has said somethings that I thought sounded a lot like works doctrines to me and on this one I say: Why doesn't he just preach and mind his own business and stop trying to tear the Church apart. All of this divisive talk wears me out and it's just gossip. He hasn't gone individually to every large church and critiqued them, he is being too general. I guess if his church membership grew to thousands and he had to build a larger sanctuary he'd just send people away and say, "sorry, we gotta keep it small."

What constitues a day when there is no time? What happens when there is no sun or moon because the Lord is the light? Note that the Light was created before the sun and the moon. Note that the 7th day has no evening and morning listed in the Genesis mention. The Sabbath God rested on was not supposed to end. It was not for God. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. There was no Sabbath needed prior to man sinning, it was added until the Seed should come, and He came.

Shiloh, I love you man, but really......... Jesus was whipped, mocked, spat at, mangled, bleeding and dying He said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Can you see Arafat through God's eyes? He created him, and he rejected Him, as far as we know. What if you had a child, did everything you could to save him and he just said no thanks and there was nothing else you could do for him. It is very sad. He was a terrible man, you're right, but we have to see sinners through God's eyes and know that no sin is any worse than the next and we are just as unrighteous in ourselves. What could have changed the course of this man's life? It's such a waste.

Agreed. (but I haven't met anyone that said Sunday was the Sabbath except for Suzanne. ) Love ya Suz Well, that settles that. whew!

Romans 14 is the end of all to this subject. Let each be convinced in his own mind. That leaves plenty of room for Saturday Sunday and everyday alike. If I speak in tongues of angels and of men but have not the love of God I am nothing but a bunch of noise. Love fulfills the law. Let's just love everybody and when we get that done lets worry about all this other non-salvific stuff.

Leonard, I'll help you out. I agree that money hungry televangelist give us a bad name and they will have to answer to God for themselves. I also have really been quickened by the Holy Spirit to bear with one another in love. There are many well-meaning christians out there that have been taught wrong and are acting in ignorance and I know God honors their faith. If it's not faith, it's sin and He knows the difference. I would take the hankerchief and keep it as a reminder to pray for these people. That God would search their hearts and convict them if they are doing anything in the flesh and that He would be glorified. Who knows what could happen with a little prayer? We gotta love em all.

and you asked: Suzanne, At the risk of sounding condescending, I love you very much, but I'd be asking God what it was I wasn't seeing if He gave me that word. I hope you take that in the spirit in which it is intended, I don't think you are blind and I'm not saying that at all, but God may want to give you insight into some new manna for all of the sacrifices you have made concerning the ministry with you husband. Rev. 2:17 talks about the hidden manna that He gives for those who overcome. Ask Him if there is something He wants to show you. Blessings