K.L.

I'm in real need to add to this discussion. To me both of you have been offensive. I get this quit a bit in my life, where one gentile will challenge another gentile and tell the jew to shut up. It's not intensional I'm mature enough to know that, but the treatment is the same. The Jew is left out of the Gentile's Church. One Calling "Pentecost" a Gentile movement is an error. "Pentecost" (pentēkostē in greek) means "fiftieth". It is the Hebrew feast of weeks. Seven weeks from the feast of First Fruits (Ressurection Sunday) to the Feast of Weeks. Yeshua rose on the Feast of First Fruits because he is the first fruits, as is the Barley. The Spirit of God (Rauch Hakodesh) came down during the feast of weeks, on this appointed time. Which is what the Law says the feasts are, appointed times. The Feast of Weeks is a Feast of the First Fruits of the Wheat. There is so much to this understanding, but I'm not amongst friendly territory. There is so much vinegar in "gentile" believers to remain in "control". It is in the opinion of scripture that by your acceptance to God through his son Yeshua, you are no longer a member of the world (nations-Genitles) but one in the Body of Yeshua. You have been grafted into the Hebrew vine, not the Hebrew grafted into the Gentile vine. (I mean Hebrew, Yahweh, not talmud Jew.) What about the sacrifical law? Should we start sacrificing? Isn't that the way it was said? What about the sacrifical and ceremonial laws? Paul did it. Acts 21:18-27 (ceremony of purification). The sacrifice? Is not Yeshua our perfect sacrifice? Has his sacrifice destroyed the need of a sacrifice? So if the sacrifical law is dead, then we have no need of Yeshua's sacrifice. No it is very much alive, as is our need of Yeshua's sacrifice. What better atonement can you give and for what sin is greater then those forgiven at the sacrifice. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Truth is The Spirit of the Law. To make foolish statments that the "Church age" is something new, you expose how little you know of scripture, especially that of the Law. Paul makes it very clear! Yet you twist his words like your twisting other scripture 2Pe 3:15-17 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him; (16) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. (17) Then beloved, you knowing beforehand, watch lest being led away by the error of the lawless you fall from your own steadfastness. Replacement Theology is an offense to Scripture, God, and all Hebrew Believers. This wasn't just friendly banter. K.L.

I am new to Worthy Boards, and detest chat rooms and bulletin boards.... I have been converted. I was amazed to read such diverse ideas, and directions others go in their studies, that I wouldn't have even bothered. But reading the passion from these brothers challenges me to research and study more... of course I find them to be wrong, but at least it made me study more (that was a joke by the way) My wife says my life is full of controversy of scripture. And she just thinks I'm enjoying being yelled at... but I have never experienced anything close to this here... yet. When I begin a study, it usually takes about a year before people are bold enough to dig in and prove me wrong. Here it's a matter of minutes. And nothing can be personal, since we really don't "know" eachother. Heb 10:24-25 And let us consider one another, to incitement of love and of good works, (25) not forsaking the assembling together of ourselves, as is the custom of some, but exhorting, and by so much more as you see the Day drawing near. I'm sure Yeshua (Jesus) is preparing a Worthy Boardroom in glory! Thankyou. K.L.

I hope you're not serious when you say "what good does knowing Greek and Hebrew really do?" I'm not a greek minded man, but I am a Hebrew minded man, and the language itself gives great insight where english can't do justice. The question isn't which translation is the Holiest, it's which translation is the safest. My "argument" isn't even connected to the King James Version or any other version. They are translations to the best of their abilities. I know how hard it is to translate from Hebrew to english, I do it all the time. I'm forced to explain the word than to just give a good english conterpart. Sometimes there just isn't one. But to debate on which translation said it right, you'd have to go back to the original language text and figure it out if it's right or not, otherwise you're just assuming it's right. I'm hoping you weren't serious, but just alittle heated, and I understand that. It's a good place to be passionate in. K.L. Let me try to explain what I meant. You are correct in that if you know Hebrew and Greek and have the original manuscripts you will have a greater understanding of the Word. I don't dispute that. My point is that even if you do know Hebrew and Greek, if you don't have a copy of the original Textus Receptus in your possession, it doesn't help your understanding of the true Word of God. It would be the same as if someone translated a book originally written in Spanish to English, and I knew Spanish. If the original Spanish language book was unavailable to me, my knowledge of the language doesn't help me understand the English version anymore than someone that doesn't speak Spanish. There are a lot of people that know Hebrew and Greek yet don't have the original T.R., so how does that knowledge help their understanding of scripture? That is my question. The true word of God is not formatted for any language. The word of God is a life force, by his word life came into being. The English language Bible is not a true word of God. Scripture is the written words from God spoken to the people of Israel to be written for all generations. Written in Hebrew. With the Strict law not to change even one stroke. The modern Hebrew text is constantly being confirmed by findings such as the dead sea scrolls etc. And there for they are in existance in the original state, so says the scolars. The difference between "original" and a copy is one of copying from text to text, letter to letter, and the other is translating from language to language. Hebrew WILL improve your understanding of scripture a thousand times over. And this understanding will caring over into any language, greek, english, german etc. For example; Jesus and Yeshua. Jesus has no meaning after going through greek (Iēsous) to latin(Iesus) to english(Jesus). But Yeshua, the Hebrew name for Jesus is also the word Salvation (Long form "Yahweh Saves"). The deeper meaning is obvious through the Hebrew. Even such errors already a heated debate is the usage of "Easter" in the King James in Acts 12:4 in place of "pascha" in the Greek. Many argue that two different Greek translations are the cause and that "Easter" would be the correct translation. Putting it through a Hebrew eye, King Harod is King of the Jews. And He arrested Peter to please the Judians. Why would he offend them by making them wait until after a pagan holy day was over. These were zealots for tradition. That would have distroyed King Herod. In my King James version, I just simply cross it out and put in the correction. If Pastors are not studying the Hebrew and Greek, do you feel more secure, or less secure that truth is being presented? K.L.

I hope you're not serious when you say "what good does knowing Greek and Hebrew really do?" I'm not a greek minded man, but I am a Hebrew minded man, and the language itself gives great insight where english can't do justice. The question isn't which translation is the Holiest, it's which translation is the safest. My "argument" isn't even connected to the King James Version or any other version. They are translations to the best of their abilities. I know how hard it is to translate from Hebrew to english, I do it all the time. I'm forced to explain the word than to just give a good english conterpart. Sometimes there just isn't one. But to debate on which translation said it right, you'd have to go back to the original language text and figure it out if it's right or not, otherwise you're just assuming it's right. I'm hoping you weren't serious, but just alittle heated, and I understand that. It's a good place to be passionate in. K.L.

Chrit's Free Servant, make sure to post when your husband and yourself go to talk these folks. I'm positive you'll have the prayer behind you from all of us. Your posts even show how much God is maturing you through this. You've sought counsel but hold firmly to scripture. Some of the points I've read is that this couple's fruit was obviously wicked, but your hopeful heart wanted to see them accept a life of Jesus. By their fruit you knew they were from a bad tree. In your spirit you knew the error and ignored it. I don't mean to be harsh, but regardless of demons, drugs, fornication etc. dealing with the symptoms is only going to delay and discourage the lost. Deal with the core. The gospel has to be clear. "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand" Turn and FOLLOW Jesus. It is a requirement by God to be completely devoted in pursuing God's commands. If they will not accept this, spend no more time with them. You see what scripture says and especially how Jesus challenges us in Matt 7. These words should not be limited to this couple, but challenge everyone in your study on these standards. Jesus challenged his disciples, and many left. Our calling is to speak and live the gospel unto death, if anyone hesitates let them leave, in hopes they see the darkness of the world, and return fully. K.L.

Why did I waste my time reading this thread! The question started out with, which translation is right about Goliath. Stating a contradiction has been found. A good explaination was given as to how from the masoric text it can be read differently, since there is not spacing between words in the text. Thatshouldmakealotofsinceastohowhonostmistakeshappen. And if you want to know which "translation" is God's Translation. I will say Hebrew. If you are conserned as to what you're missing, and truly desire to know more about God's word and character, you would be learning it right now. Stop quarelling over endless and pointless debates and start putting your efferts to good works. We all have free access to the learn Hebrew, and become scholars with out ever leaving our home. Don't be shamed anymore because of your lack of knowledge, and don't be puffed up because of knowledge. It is a tool to be able to dig deeper into the heart of your creator YHWH (and to those who are now offended that I say YHWH read your Scripture, instead of your talmud) There I feel better... K.L.

For what ever is worth, I'll put ditto marks under amdntsr's comment. Action must be done. Your "Bible Study" is your fellowship, your congregation, your church, don't excuse this as just a side show. When scripture says to cast those who pursue evil out of your congregation, that is what is meant. Please Do not allow evil into the presence of Holiness. It is NOT YOUR responsibility to "Save" anyone. That belongs to Yeshua. Story; A close friend of mine grew up also in a demonic house. Since his earliest memory, he remembers being attacked, frightened etc by them. To him they were pure evil. But to his mother, she saw them too, but as "lost souls looking for the light". They appear differently to people. My friend is a strong Godfearing man, but his mother is not, although she claimed christ, she believed in lies. This tolerance to these Spirits literally tortured, tormented, and destroyed his family. He spent 18 years of his life this way. His advice would be very stern, as his patience with tolerance is none. And there is no other ministry then to preach, disciple, and live out the gospel. There is no such biblical thing as Spiritual Warfare Ministry. K.L.

wow. Other One, is that your website your quoting? Fascinating. Will be studying that one the side. Shiloh357 Thankyou for that. This actually gives me two questions then. If anyone knows if the Jordan River is a calm river all year or is there a time that would be safest to baptize? The fall being Yeshua's birthday as thought, would be a dry season or rainy season? The Fall start of his Ministry makes since in light of a more cooler and wet possibly spring. But it still doesn't place Yeshua's ministry to 3 1/2 years. Last night in fact I opened it up to a group and presented the argument and we made our best effort to lengthen his ministry as much as possible by scripture. The best was 2 1/2 years if John's second "Passover" was really a "Passover" or a wrong translation to "feast". Through scripture alone. How can you get 3 1/2 years. (This is open to anyone not just Shiloh357). I'm also very skeptical of "church fathers"so I don't put hardly any weight to their opinions. Also Luke states Yeshua was beginning his 30th year. That would make him 29 (maybe he was baptized on his birthday ) K.L.

Friendship is not dating. As for making my son think girls are bad, not at all. In fact my five year has already picked out his wife in school and TOLD her she was going to marry him. She said, Ok. My son watches my wife and I, and I need to make sure that looks to be the most attractive deal in life. If he wants that, he'll need to know how. K.L.

This is an old post, but I'm new to the forum so I'm responding to it now. I have to disagree where you say, "In order to be Jewish, you have to reject Christ as savior". Jesus and all his disciples were jews...100%. Abraham believed in God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. David was a man after God's own heart. I believe that when they died, they went through Jesus...he was the judge. "No one goes to the father, but through me" I will agree with you Adonaicole, but I have a strong feeling its not the blood of the flesh he's referring to, but the cultural traditions of Jews. I personally love the law. Everything about it is perfect. Yeshua explained the Spirit of the Law, the Spirit of Truth. He sent this Spirit to live in us, to also internally guide, instruct, comfort, and convict us. The Spirit of the Father does not wonder from Father, but confirms the Father. I'm trying to formulate kind words to express my frustration on referring to Jews as all being orthodox. Orthodoxy does not make you a Jew. Blood makes you Jew. A Jew remains a Jew whether Orthodox, Christian, Catholic, or Atheist. Orthodox Jews can not be saved to be Orthodox. Yes, you must deny Yeshua as the Messiah to become Orthodox. I know Gentiles who fell in love with tradition, and denied Yeshua to follow doctrines made by man, and became Orthodox. So its not just Jews who fall. Be careful of Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is a direct line from the Pharisees. They are proud of that. And you can read Yeshua words against them. K.L.

Oh yea Cindydiane welcome to Worthy Boards. Nice to meet you and hope to read more from you. K.L.

Yea. Tess you are talking about courting. Your list is perfect for courtship, which in my world is the only acceptable method. Dating to us is teasing with regret. At age.... first off, I tell people I'm around 30 so of course I'm older then that, Male, have an awsome wife and two very strong headed children (they get that from their mother). At age 14 there is no way I would put my son through that. I tell him that if he has an interest in a girl whom he wishes to spend the rest of his life with, and be a partner, then begin the courting process under the guarded eyes of both fathers. As fathers we want success. Like any good investment it must be closely watched and steered in the right direction. This starts and 18 IF he can prove to be able to provide for her by both father's standards (with reality in mind). A great friend of ours told us about his son when he was 18 thanked his mom for not allowing him to date. He'd say it sucked but he honostly liked not having to be involved in that "she likes you" "so are you going to date her" "who do you like best" etc. He's married now, with absolutly no baggage or regrets. Give him the best reason why he can't date anyone, its not that he doesn't like her, its just my parents won't let me until I'm 18. Nate (the son's name) became the most sought after kid around. I still hear of storys of girls waiting for him to turn 18. God's Speed to you! K.L.

If CNN said it, it must be true..tsk...tsk. Silentprayer, you mentioned about the Church of Christ not playing musical instruments, so correct me if I'm wrong, the church is not against instruments just not using them on Sunday. Correct? Now I remember being told this about a particular denomination but can't remember which, but they also do not play instruments, because they consider that to be work, and don't want to place a burden on anyone on their sabbath. is that true for the Church of Christ? If so, that makes alot of sense. K.L.

Okay besides Yod. SOME Of us weren't so "LUCKY". K.L.

You are so on to something Being very familar with our "situation" the biggest hurdle is western mind verses eastern mind. Amercian's mindset is based and rooted in Jeffersonian Democracy. Which simple means, westerns view of moral code, here being the Scriptures. There it's the Koran. It is "American Ignorance" as they call it, that gets us killed. The majority of what we preach, and teach about our own beliefs are not even founded in scripture but based off of American Philosophy, which is based on Greek Philosophy, which claims is devinely inspired from God (above scripture). K.L.

Ok Shiloh357! Sorry this took longer to respond then I thought, but I was challenged to see if Rabbi Yochanan was right or not. SO I studied this thoroughly and here is what I found and discovered. As for time of year Yeshua starts his ministry, the reading Yeshua makes was in Isaiah 61:1-2, and is actually NOT in any of the Haftarah portions. Believe it or not (in fact don't believe me- mayber I missed it) Isaiah 61:1-9 is not read at all. The gospel of Luke also states that Yeshua searched the Isaiah scroll for the passage, so it wasn't even set to be read. I was also going to mention Yeshua being around 30, but Luke's post beat me to it (I won't have thought to use red ) Matthew and Mark are both very very close to eachother, so I will mention only Matthew. Luke also is in line which confirms that all four gospels are written in chronological order. Matthew's telling seem to stay around the Galil region where Luke's ventures into the Hill Country. The Three gospels spend a good amount of time recounting the trip from Galil to Jerusalem which I assume it is because the whole gang was with Yeshua for that. Since it seems John, Peter, and James seems to stay with Yeshua since the big fish catch, John's recount would include alot more. No where is Matthew Mark or Luke give any indication as of time frame except, "that sabbath", or "two days later" and adding those up you could assume that they were talking only about a span of 3 to 4 months. But certainly not 3 1/2 years. The only time line was have is John's and the extra Sabbath which I discribed earlier only places his ministry to 2 years, not 3 1/2. Now with out spending weeks on this, my response is that no where in the gospels can I find that would suggest a 3 1/2 year ministry. SO.. I'm going to return the challenge to you Shiloh357 to either confirm or prove otherwise this assumed truth of Yeshua's time in ministry as shown through scripture. This isn't a challenge to see whose right and whose wrong, its what's truth and what's philosophy. Did you notice Isaiah 61:1-2 talks about "the year of the LORD'S good pleasure".... TO TRUTH!! K.L.

Ready for this? Rabbi Yohannan Balack is the culprit, but I can not disagree with him. So blame him... here it goes. Open you Bibles to the Gospel of John. It is out of the book Yeshua is seen to go for 3 1/2 years. But there is a mistake. If you are not studied in Law you won't find it. Joh 6:1-5 After these things, Jesus went away over the Sea of Galilee, the Tiberian Sea. (2) And a great crowd followed Him, for they saw His miraculous signs which He did on the sick ones. (3) And Jesus went up into the mountain and sat there with His disciples. (4) And the Passover was near, the feast of the Jews. (5) Then Jesus lifting up His eyes and seeing that a great crowd is coming to Him, He said to Philip, From where may we buy loaves that these may eat? Joh 6:16-17 And when it became evening, His disciples went down on the sea. (17) And entering into the boat, they were going across the sea to Capernaum. And darkness had already occurred, and Jesus had not come to them. Joh 7:1-2 And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He did not desire to walk in Judea, because the Jews were lusting to kill Him. (2) And the Jewish Feast of the Tabernacles was near. Now you'll have to read Chapter 6 and 7 to understand that there is NO WAY Yeshua whom followed the law would have NOT gone to Jerusalem. Then chapter 7 states the feast of Tabernacles. Thats 7 months later! But chapter 7 starts with "And after these things..." Now in John 5:1 "After these things, there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem." talks about an unnamed feast. And moving ahead to John 10:22 "And the Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem, and it was winter. " We see Yeshua at Hanakha, which isn't even a Law Feast, but a dedication. Everything up to chapter 6 is in order, but then we lose about 1 or 2 years between Chapter 6 and 7 OR that festival could have been the Day of Atonement (Yom Kipper) and Chapter 5 unnamed feast could have been Rosh Hashanah. If this is the case, then John actually flows very well and dates Yeshua's Ministry starting prior to Passover, and ending a little over on Year at his last Passover. Why is this important? Prophecy! Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year; ye shall take it from the sheep, or from the goats; Yeshua the Passover Lamb, male of the first year, without blemish. K.L.

I know a thousand sad stories like this One particular person in Richmond Virginia has not been able to speak with his mom or dad in almost 30 years. They even shun the grandkids. I'm afraid it comes down to the dollars gentile christians spend in Israel. Yod is right about Jews to Jews. Orhodoxy is tolerant but not accepting. Orthodox are usually those who are throwing the stones (literally), but its to more then just Christians. They are also very abusive against the Karites as well. What's a Karite? Kara is the ancient hebrew word for Scripture, now TNK (Tanakh) is used. The Pharisee (orthodox) came to them to accept the oral law, but they refused because Moses was commanded to write down ALL things. So not to be left out, they called themselves "Karites", meaning Scripture only.

Heb 9:13-18 For if the blood of bulls and goats, and ashes of a heifer sprinkling those having been defiled, sanctifies to the purity of the flesh, (14) by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God! (15) And because of this He is Mediator of a new covenant, so that, death having occurred for redemption of transgressions under the first covenant, those being called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance. (16) For where a covenant is, the death of him having covenanted must be offered. (17) For a covenant is affirmed over those dead, since it never has force when he who has covenanted is living. (18) From which neither the first covenant was dedicated without blood. Please do not take scripture out of context. Mat 5:17-18 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill. (18) Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass. Please do not take scripture out of context. Rom 10:2-9 For I testify to them that they have zeal to God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to the righteousness of God. (4) For Christ is the end of Law for righteousness to everyone that believes. (5) For Moses writes of the righteousness which is of the Law: "The man doing these things shall live by them." Lev. 18:5 (6) But the righteousness of faith says this: "Do not say in your heart, Who will go up into Heaven?" (that is, to bring down Christ); (7) or, "Who will go down into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) (8) But what does it say? "The Word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the Word of faith which we proclaim) Deuteronomy 30:12-14. (9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Please do not take scripture out of context Just a little lesson on words. Did you know the word Righteousness in Hebrew "tsed-aw-kaw' refers to justice. The word for righteousness means law biding, following law. But words are words. How about scripture Deu 6:25 And it shall be righteousness unto us, if we observe to do all this commandment before the LORD our God, as He hath commanded us.' "the New Testament Testator died" and has become our end to righteousness. You want to know how to become righteous? Yeshua. Now what. Do what righteousness requires. Live as a righteous person should live. Be like Yeshua. He followed the Law. And until "the heavens and earth pass away, and all things are fulfilled" I will continue following Yeshua as my guide. because he did not come to take away the law, but to be its fulfillment. As Paul so eloquently stated, Yeshua is what law abiding people wish to accomplish, and now lawless man can obtain it first through Yeshua. Praise God. Yod, Shiloh357, lets not forget, we were all there once. K.L.

Tari, do you know what you believe? of course you do, we all know what we ourselves believe. But does your belief and that of the RCC match? What do you know about scripture? Or about the RCC? Do you beleive in the santification and salvation through Eucharist? Which goes directly contrary to Jesus' own words? In case other readers don't know, let me give a report on what the RCC believes to be Jesus Christ. The Eucharist is one of the seven Catholic sacraments that "confer sanctifying grace and assist souls in attaining union with God." According to the Second Vatican Council the Eucharist is the "source and summit of Christian life". http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/arch...sm/p2s2c1a3.htm The Catholic Church teaches that the Eucharist is really, truly, and substantially the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ under the appearances of bread and wine. It rejects as heresy the belief that the Eucharist merely symbolizes Christ or commemorates His suffering and death. As liturgy states during Mass. Eucharistic union with God is a primary component in the Catholic conception of prayer life, in which one progresses first along the purgative way, e.g., confessing sins before receiving communion, a tradition dating from the earliest period of the Church. Later, one passes along to the illuminative and unitive ways. Through the Eucharist, the Catholic faithful seeks to "live by Christ, as Christ lives by the Father", a direct contradiction to scripture. The Catholic Church teaches that at the Consecration of the Mass (when the priest says "This is my Body" and "This is my Blood"), the "substance" (essential reality) of the bread and wine is changed into that of the Body and Blood of Christ, while the "accidents" (attributes or appearances, such as taste, texture, size, smell, etc.) remain unchanged. This change is called transubstantiation. Transubstantiation does not be a symbolic change such as allegorical, but as a chemical change from one substance to another. Only able to happen outside of the natrural relm. I quote the RCC here: "Because the Eucharist is really and truly Christ Himself under the appearances of bread and wine, Roman Catholics worship the Eucharistic species. The Eucharist is stored in the tabernacle of every Catholic church and Catholics genuflect as a sign of respect when entering Its presence. The consecrated elements may be used to give a special blessing, called Eucharistic Benediction. " Now again. What Jesus do you follow? The Catholic Jesus Eucharist, or the scriptural Jesus Christ? To the Protestants and Reformers, are you still following after false doctines? Let us always be on guard and ready when truth reveals herself. Deu 12:29-31 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest in to dispossess them, and thou dispossessest them, and dwellest in their land; (30) take heed to thyself that thou be not ensnared to follow them, after that they are destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying: 'How used these nations to serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.' (31) Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God; for every abomination to the LORD, which He hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters do they burn in the fire to their gods. K.L.

I'm not very interested in studying cults, so from a study buddy of mind who once was Roman Catholic states vatican's Code name is 'Mystery Babylon.' I won't doubt it. I know when ever I get debated on my opposition to that cult, they never seem to refute any of the charges against them ie the woman dressed in scarlet (pope's robe) and purple (cardnals robe) among everything else, but charges me saying if " the springs of Catholic tradition are as poisoned as you say, why do you drink from them when you need to slake your spiritual thirst?" Of corse I am a devout Karite and have no participation with reseblences, denominations or multiplcations with catholicism, and they usually are left with nothing to say. I attack catholics like I attack atheists. I love em to death, only becasue Yeshua did. Protecting wrong doctine is like protecting a virus. K.L.

Now it was explained to me by a Rabbi like this... Prior to the fall of Israel to Babylon, there where two kingdoms, Israel, and Judah. Israel was not following after the law, but Judah was (Judah then became the whole again leaving Israel out). In Judah many tribes were there, but since Judah was considered the major tribe (kings come from Judah) "Jew" became a sort of citizenship recognition to the kingdom of Judah. K.L.

What would you say to Mat 5:17-20 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill. (18) Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass. (19) Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. (20) For I say to you, If your righteousness shall not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of God, never! K.L.

I shall do one thing all of you choose not to. In this whole thread not ONE of you sought what Yeshua said... who is your Messiah? Paul? Mat 5:17-20 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill. (18) Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass. (19) Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. (20) For I say to you, If your righteousness shall not exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of God, never! If Messiah is correct (dare I ask) then the law stands as is. To those who debate blindly, study! Please!! The law is a beautiful work of divine art. You want to know Yeshua? Learn his Laws, embrace his laws. "But what of the sacrificial laws... those don't need to be kept." 1st, there is no Temple to make sacrifice, so I guess that would be a wasted debate. Next, Yeshua is our sacrifice, for what sin do we need atonement for? So the law stands, Yeshua is our sacrifice, and to say the law is dead, is to say Yeshua is no longer necessary. Concerning Paul, I know many Messianic's do not like Sh'aul. My response, grow up. Sh'aul is only confusing to those who have no understanding, as Peter warned 2Pe 3:15-16 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him; (16) as also in all his epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the unlearned and unsettled pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. To those who say Paul preached against being a lawbidding christian, consider this Act 21:20-27 And hearing, they glorified the Lord, and said to him, You see, brother, how many myriads there are of Jews that have believed, and all are zealous ones of the Law. (21) And they were informed about you, that you teach falling away from Moses, telling all the Jews throughout the nations not to circumcise their children, nor to walk in the customs. (22) What then is it? At all events, a multitude must come together, for they will hear that you have come. (23) Then do this, what we say to you: There are four men who have a vow on themselves; (24) taking these, be purified with them, and be at expense on them, that they may shave the head. And all shall know that all what they have been told about you is nothing, but you yourself walk orderly, keeping the Law. (25) And as to the believing nations, we joined in writing, judging them to observe no such thing, except to keep themselves from both idol sacrifice, and the blood, and a thing strangled, and from fornication. (26) Then taking the men on the next day, having been purified with them, Paul went into the temple, declaring the fulfillment of the days of the purification, until the offering should be offered for each one of them. (27) But when the seven days were about to be completed, having seen him in the temple, the Jews from Asia stirred up all the crowd, and they laid hands on him, Now know that if you fight, your fighting with the Messiah. Wrestle with God, that is a good thing. K.L.

What a discussion! If anyone has in their heart the motive to kill themselves, for whom are they living for, that would bring such despair? If you live for Yeshua, he brings you hope. If you live for the world (yourself included) you will have despare. We are dead to this world and alive in Yeshua... there is no room for both. Either your ALIVE in him, or dead. K.L.