undone

Yer gonna make me blush. I'll take "The Atheist's Wager" for $100, Alex. (Source: Wikipedia) So, let me understand this, you are in effect saying that IF the God of the bible exists, the good works you've conducted throughout your life should account for something and hopefully spare you from eternal separation from Him. Right? Am I close?

Since we have some new non-believing friends here on Worthy since this was originally posted, I thought I'd bump this and see where it may go.

Is there anything correct about politics?

Unfortunately, many Christians remain naive to the attack our faith is under from the emergence of militant neo-atheism (Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Chris Hitchens, et al). Our atheist friend states he is not seeking God but is

to each his own

Speaking for myself, I'm not here seeking for answers that have been bugging me about spiritual matters. Sorry spblat, I just found this funny. I've seen your post above in the other thread. I must confess I enjoyed this way too much. I had a pretty bad experience on another Christian board that was primarily designed for teens. The board was open for anyone to post on and it quickly got covered up with non-believers intentionally trying to pull youngsters away from their faith. It got so bad that the people who ran it decided to shut it down. What was meant to be a place for like minded teens to congregate and share their lives/problems/questions with each other, became a nightmare. I was one of the few Christian adults (because I teach youth and support that particular ministry) who supported and participated on that board. I have no misconceptions about why most atheist/agnostics participate on Christian message boards. That said, I also shouldn't paint all of you with the same brush. For that I apologize.

AHAAA!!! The truth comes out!!! You mean you guys aren't here because you are truly seeking for answers that have been bugging you lately about spiritual matters? You mean you want US to lose faith because you guys are the keepers of the REAL truth and you're here to save us from this insanity? I'm shocked! I don't know what to think! You've actually had nefarious intentions all this time and I thought you were here for our help!!!

Actually, I answered: Forgive me, I must have passed the last part of your answer. I think I was anticipating more arguments over semantics and such that seems to happen so often. So you're saying it IS possible....

I suppose one of the reasons I posted this topic was to examine the cause and effect of this particular issue. As a body of believers, what are we doing to cause unneeded defections? I can tell you that I've asked our church youth group, on occasion, "why are you Christians?". You can instantly see question marks pop up over their heads. I then ask, "why did you get saved, if you've already done so"? Replies vary from, 'their parents made them', to 'wanted to do it before the last youth pastor left', to 'I don't know'. None of them seem to give solid answers. With this being the case, you have to believe that we are setting them up for failure when they leave the nest and head out on their own. When most of the graduate high school, they don't come to the youth group anymore, many go to liberal universities and fall prey to atheist friendly teaching and teachers. It's no wonder. They're still babies in many ways. My daughter calls from college (University of Texas - Tyler) from time to time to talk about these types of issues she comes across. The place she encounters error the most in when a group of her friends gather and start to talk about faith and religion. The latest is a discussion on whether or not Hell acutually exists. The prevailing opinion of the group was that it doesn't and they gave a list of reasons why. My daughter's like, but the bible says so and so. They dismiss her counsel and she, at the very least, is thinking, "well, they make a good point". Of course I'm all over it and correct what she's telling me. But you can see the problem. She's not going to risk losing friends in a place she otherwise would feel alone. So she let's 'em think what they want. In the meantime, we're cranking out teen after teen that understands little about why their Christians. I believe some basic apologetics needs to be a primary emphasis in our youth curriculum. I realize we're mostly concerned with getting them there, settling them down, and make them think it was cool to be there. There are some apologetic learning materials out there that most kids I've been involved with teaching that can really grab their attention and help make them think. At the very least, they need to have some of this information in their minds so that when they get confronted with error, they can recall that they heard something different from their parents or youth pastor and hold on to it, even if they can't quite remember what it was, until they can get to someone who can help them sort it out. Cause and effect. There's two basic reasons people do or don't do something. One, the lack of execution. Two, the lack of knowledge. We need to be equipping our youth with the tool of knowledge so that we eliminate that reason. They'll have to choose to execute what they've learned. That's my two cents...

I think in our state (Texas), you won't usually get a ticket. They figure you've been punished enough due to the accident. You might be able to get it dismissed with defensive driving or deferred adjudication. I'm a licensed insurance agent. Trust me, anything you can do keep negative things from showing up on you MVR only helps you manage you insurance rates. It will stay on your MVR at least 3 years, if not 5, and be there to haunt you until it falls off.

Yeah, dig it. But it goes back way farther than that. Your toilet came from an exploding star. It's all starstuff, and so are we. Let's start at the Big Bang. Eventually simple hydrogen and helium atoms form out of the hot, expanding, exploding mess within the first million years or so of the Universe's existence. These atoms begin to coalesce into denser and denser masses. Some of these masses get so dense that they become stars where hydrogen atoms start to fuse, releasing gobs of energy (light and heat) and producing more helium. Stars which use up all their hydrogen start fusing helium, and so on, producing heavier and heavier elements: lithium, beryllium, boron, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen. Some stars go supernova, monstrous runaway nuclear bombs, stellar explosions where these lighter elements are fused into all the heavier elements--including aluminum and silicon, which (among many others) make their way to the dust cloud which coalesces into our solar system, where we find them in kaolinite and other silicate minerals in the Earth. And somebody digs these minerals up and figures out how to make things out of them, and there's your toilet. Cosmic. And they say atheists don't feel awe. How could we not? FOR SALE: 40,000,000 year old toilet. (6,000 years of you are a YEC). Works great! A real bargain!

Yep...heard this before...not in those exact words, but through the attitudes and responses of many atheists I've run accross on Worthy and other boards. I bet you can find T-Shirts and bumper stickers with this printed on it at your local atheist gear shop. So Baron Holdback succeeded in holdin' back alot of innocent folks. He probably had strict Christian parents and he was going through a rebellious phase.

Taxss, Welcome to Worthy. To many people, evolution is not such a given. Upon close examination, there are holes in that can be overlooked, covered up, and/or written off as "science will figure it out someday". Many people who were taught and believed in evolution found that after they entered a profession that depended on it, learned of these holes in the story and started questioning it's validity. They found that it was not a popular to do so and they become outcasts (so to speak) from the scientific community. Whether the reason they are rejected by their peers is founded or not, doesn't mean there isn't any validity to their claims. I only bring this up because, on Worthy, you'll find a combination of views on evolution and to an outsider, like me, there are good reasons for dissent among evolutions detractors and some good reasons for people to conclude it to be valid. I hope you find what you are looking for here....

I think you'd face an uphill battle proving this. It isn't just the age of the minerals which make up the Earth that offers clear support for the scientific view, it's the fact that you can observe naturally formed structures across the globe which can be shown to have formed over geologic, not biblical, time spans. And then you're back to arguing whether (and why) God created the Earth five or ten millennia ago, meticulously crafting it to appear millions of millennia old. Thanks for your honest assessment. I truly hadn't meant it to go much further than entertaining my own curiosity. I realize one opens a whole new can of worms to carry this out to it's conclusion. I suppose I like to think there are such a large number of variables and possibilities that exist when considering a question of this magnitude that only my creator can possibly hold the answer. Thus, man, in his current state, will only scratch the surface of truth that exists in our universe. One more idea that stems from this... Would it not be true that most of if not all of the natural elements of our world would have been here since it's foundation? For example, the porcelain toilet in my bathroom was manufactured 30 years ago from raw materials that one way or another were a part of the earth since it's inception. HUH!?! HUH!?!

I think you'd face an uphill battle proving this. It isn't just the age of the minerals which make up the Earth that offers clear support for the scientific view, it's the fact that you can observe naturally formed structures across the globe which can be shown to have formed over geologic, not biblical, time spans. And then you're back to arguing whether (and why) God created the Earth five or ten millennia ago, meticulously crafting it to appear millions of millennia old. Thanks for your honest assessment. I truly hadn't meant it to go much further than entertaining my own curiosity. I realize one opens a whole new can of worms to carry this out to it's conclusion. I suppose I like to think there are such a large number of variables and possibilities that exist when considering a question of this magnitude that only my creator can possibly hold the answer. Thus, man, in his current state, will only scratch the surface of truth that exists in our universe.

But why would god create the matter of the universe and then come back later to create the earth? Why would he create an earth that looks older than it is? Was he trying to deceive us? (By the way, the dates were taken from meteorites, not the earth itself.) Undone has a viable theory there. One that never occurred to ME, truthfully, but viable nonetheless. Atheistreview, oh misguided one, let me give you a clue. God does not ever try to decieve his children; why would He? We can't understand most of His actions anyway. But they are always honest and in our best interests, even if we don't agree with them. That was my point. "God does not ever try to decieve his children", which is why it doesn't make sense that he would make the earth look older than it is. It seems like a very unparsimonious answer to the question. Okay...that aside, is the radiometric dating question possible? I'm not familiar with the radiometric dating process enough to rule this scenario out or say it's possible. Do you know? Anybody else out there familiar enough with the process to make an informed response? Still waiting....

The 18th-century French author Baron d'Holbach was one of the first self-described atheists. In The System of Nature (1770), he describes the universe in terms of philosophical materialism, strict determinism, and atheism. This and his Good Sense (1772) were condemned by the Parlement of Paris, and copies of the books were publicly burned. Thanks for this post. Did this Baron have a large following of organized believers (or "non-believers:)?

How I am supposed to know that? You only gave me enough info to find one article, and not by name. The Science article concerns resistance to science if it clashes with early childhood teachings whose lessons become intuitive. The authors specifically cite the fundamentalist resistance of evolution but I didn't find mention of the belief in heaven or "belief in a purpose" as a delusion. In fact, the copy I read did not use the word "delusion" at all. Lorax, it is so obvious you are playing the game of denial. I do recall seeing one or more articles posted in the Worthy News section where some scientist(s) or psychiatrist(s) had proclaimed belief in God, Heaven and Hell, etc. a mental illness. I used to belong to a science board, which I absolutely loved participating in, until the founder kept writing these kinds of proclamations in his blog:

But why would god create the matter of the universe and then come back later to create the earth? Why would he create an earth that looks older than it is? Was he trying to deceive us? (By the way, the dates were taken from meteorites, not the earth itself.) Undone has a viable theory there. One that never occurred to ME, truthfully, but viable nonetheless. Atheistreview, oh misguided one, let me give you a clue. God does not ever try to decieve his children; why would He? We can't understand most of His actions anyway. But they are always honest and in our best interests, even if we don't agree with them. That was my point. "God does not ever try to decieve his children", which is why it doesn't make sense that he would make the earth look older than it is. It seems like a very unparsimonious answer to the question. Okay...that aside, is the radiometric dating question possible? I'm not familiar with the radiometric dating process enough to rule this scenario out or say it's possible. Do you know? Anybody else out there familiar enough with the process to make an informed response?

Ah! I understand.... So, by your understanding, what is a violation of Canada's hate speech law? Preaching that homosexuality is sin? Referring to people like Dawkins as "militant" atheists? Referring to Christians as mentally ill? Just curious.... Hate speech is a little murky however there is a clause that allows such speech to be permitted if it's religiously motivated. As long as you don't attempt to incite violence against a group of people. Link removed by moderator I read the link. Thanks for that...

Ah! I understand.... So, by your understanding, what is a violation of Canada's hate speech law? Preaching that homosexuality is sin? Referring to people like Dawkins as "militant" atheists? Referring to Christians as mentally ill? Just curious....

Canada is generally socially progressive. We have universal health care, same sex marriage, a strong sense of multiculturalism, anti-racist policies, and bilingual government services. A lot of those things run counter to whats stated in the Bible, or at least by popular Christian leaders in the US and American culture itself. Although few are very interested in science there is an understanding that what we know about the universe runs counter to what the Bible states and as a result many Christians I've talked to simply ignore Genesis, Noah's flood, and in some cases the entire Old Testament because of it's more hateful teachings compared to those of Jesus in the New Testament. Do I think our current culture is beneficial? In my opinion the grass does seem greener on this side of the border. Do you know of any instances where you felt your rights to freely practice your faith were infringed?

Yeah I'm up north in Canada here so different culture and all. Religion here seems to be something for the older generation and is declining as they pass on. GTC, To what do you attribute this change in the Canadian culture? Do you feel this change has had or will have any negative impact on Canadian society? Positive impact? (Your opinion and/or statistical data will do). -------------------------------------------- My impression of the discussion between Lorax and AK is that Lorax feels AK is a bit paranoid. I disagree to the extent that we (as American Christians) don't want to find ourselves 10-20 years later wishing we had done all we could to protect our rights to practice our faith and teach and/or discipline our children as we see fit. I think AK is simply pointing out that we should be diligent to protect our freedom from those who would seek to take it away and justify doing so by persuading lawmakers that we (as Christians and/or other religious bodies) exhibit traits of a mental disorder because we beleive what we beleive. Dawkins and the like have the freedom to voice their opinions in this country but the minute they begin to infringe on my rights, we have a problem. Too often I feel we've been passive about letting things slide. I see nothing wrong with people such as AK who act as watchmen to keep us aware of potential dangers lurking in our future. Is he over-reacting, maybe. But I'd rather find out he and others like him were over-reacting than under-reacting to the potential erosion of our constitutional freedoms.

Signed