One Way

Would it shake your faith as a post triber to wake up one day and realize that the anti-christ was always on your television set? And that the great tribulation starts with The LORD'S two witnesses bringing the wrath of GOD down on the earth? Although I don't agree with your ultimate conclusion you are right in one aspect. Although the GT is commonly referred to as being "7 years long" and starting with the rapture of the Church (from a pre-trib perspective), this is not entirely accurate. The 7 year period is known as the 70th week of Daniel. During this final "week" (7 year period) God will deal with Israel and all of the unbelieving world that rejected Christ. The Church is nowhere in this final 7 year period. The church was not in any of the first 69 weeks, why would the church be in the final week? Something for all mid/post-tribbers to ponder. The "GT" is the latter half of this final "week." It is the last 3.5 years of history on this earth. So, the GT, itself, is not 7 years long. Rather, it is the 2nd half of this final "week" that was determined for Israel. Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Look at 9:24. Who are the 70 weeks for? They're for "thy people (the Jews) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem)." Where does the Church fit in here? Answer: we DON'T. And this is the big error of mid/post-trib doctrine. It fails to understand the very context and purpose of the 70 weeks of Daniel. If you disect this text, which I can do if someone asks me to although it might get lengthy (but, I don't mind), you will see that it prophesies the very day of the Triumphal Entry and then to the Messiah being "cut off," that is where He was crucified for our sins (thank you, Lord!). The only period not included in this passage from the time it was given until the end of the earth is "the Church dispensation." That is, from Pentecost until the rapture. Right now we are in a sort of interim period between the 69th week, which has already been fulfilled, and the 70th week which is yet to be fulfilled. This is a mystery that baffles even the angels of God (1 Peter 1:12). Not that God would save us, but that we become His very family as "sons of God" (John 1:12) and "the Bride of Christ" (Rev 21:9). The Church is a very special body, indeed, and we are all very fortunate that this is the place God chose for us to be in His plan for humanity. All praise belongs to Him and His Son, Jesus, Who gave Himself up that we might live. He (Jesus) came to pay a debt He did not owe, because we owed a debt we could not pay. Amazing love, how can it be? That you my King would die for me. Blessings...

I have to highly disagree with this, but most here won

I lean towards pre-trib

Let's disect this, piece by piece: 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Here we have the dead in Christ rising first, then those who are alive are "caught up." No problem so far. 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. This passage makes it clear that we must enter the kingdom of God in our glorified body. 2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Here we find that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Hence, when we die we are immediately ushered into the presence of the Lord. Where is Jesus? He is in heaven, and we must first obtain our glorified body before we can go to heaven (look back to 1 Cor 15:52-53). Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Okay, read Rev 20:5. It shows the believers in Christ reigning with Him during the 1,000 years. Verse 5 says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." That is a statement. It doesnt' say they have been raised... yet. It then goes on to say "This is the first resurrection." What is? Look back to verse 4. All those who have reigned with Christ are part of the 1st resurrection, not "the dead lived not again until the thousand years." How do we know? Because look at what the very next verse says: Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. It clearly statest that the 1st resurrection are those who are not subject to the 2nd resurrection. It then goes on to say, "but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." You see, the 1st resurrection is those who reign with Christ for 1,000 years. How could this be after the 1,000 reign if those in the 1st resurrection itself rule and reign with Christ during the 1,000 millenial period?!?! It's all right there... pretty clear if you disect it. Then: Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. This portion of the text is only dealing with the unconverted. For, we know that the OT believers are already with Christ. And, we know that from the resurrection of Jesus onward all believers go to be with the Lord upon their death here on earth. In Rev 20:11-15 the unbelievers are judged. The 1st resurrection is not one single act, as we have just seen. The 2nd resurrection is. For the time being, those who die without Christ go to Hades and await this event. That is why it says in Rev 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them." These places are still full. I hope this clears it up. To recap on the 1st resurrection. It cannot be "after the 1,000' reign," because we have just seen that those reigning in the 1,000 kingdom are part of the 1st resurrection (Rev 20:6). Blessings...

If the "dead in Christ" get risen, why would they need to get risen again? I don't get it. The righteous will only be raised (their glorified body) once. Remember, when it says "the dead in Christ shall rise first," this isn't saying that all previously dead believers are in soul sleep. For, we find that: 2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Believers who die in Christ immediately go to be with the Lord. This resurrection is speaking of the glorified body. Brian, this is just another misunderstanding of the text. The trumpets of Rev 8-11 are blown by angels, not God. The trump of God in 1 Thes 4 is blown by the Lord Himself. This is the same trump that Paul mentions in 1 Cor 15:52 1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Therefore, the trumpet blowings are not all the same. Don't mistake the trumpets of Rev 8-11 which are blown by angels (which is not even at the end of the GT) with the trump of God that the Lord, Himself, will blow. Blessings...

See thats the problem with the pre-trib lie, is that they confuse tribulation with God's Wrath. Do you consider the persecution of the saints Gods wrath? Jesus promised us tribulation in this world. Distress and Wrath are two differant things. Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. You are mixing Satans Wrath and persecutions as God's Wrath. Negative, just the opposite actually. You see, the persecution Jesus promised us in this world comes from just that, the world. The Great Tribulation is where God pours out His wrath. That is where the misunderstanding is. The GT is God's wrath. Jesus promised us tribulation from this world, not from God.

Well, if I give you 1 piece of gum and then give you an additional piece of gum, how many pieces of gum do you have? If you say "three," I would surmise that the problem is that you didn't learn the english language correct. Then, I would ask you to represent how many pieces you have by holding up the correct number of fingers. Now, if you hold up 1, 2, 3 fingers, then the problem is with your perception of reality. This is proven by this exercise. Pull out each piece of gum and pair it up with a finger. If, at the end of this exercise, you have a finger that is stag then you know the problem is your understanding and not reality. Blessings...

Now, this has been typical of our dialogue One Way. I just checked and I wrote 9 pms to you. I gave you an initial question and you referred me to one verse, particularly that we would escape the SINS that were to come upon the whole world. I had asked you to name any verses IN THE GOSPELS that pertain to the RAPTURE, and that is all you could come up with. Yet, I was very patient with you and answered numerous questions, while each time asking for even ONE verse, yet you REFUSED to advance ANY but the argument you had already given which was not an argument at all, for you base your conclusion on a false interpretation. Who is "spiritualizing" now? I told you I would answer all your questions if you would only allow me to guide you through the study of the scriptures, to which you rebuffed me and said that I was "boxing you in". I had stated my intentions in my very first post, but as you know it quickly went down hill and although you said you were OPEN to the truth, you rejected the myriad of verses and Greek and Hebrew definitions I provided. How very sad. Perhaps one day, the seeds I have planted will take hold and you will start reading the scriptures "for all their worth". OR perhaps someone else will take up the banner and water the seeds I have planted. In any case, God will be honored and give the increase where it is needed. Blessings, Dad Ernie LOL! It sure is funny how 2 people can be involved in the same event and have a completely different aspect of what went on. I'll not continue the back and forth with ya, Ernie. But, in closing, please elaborate on how this passage is talking about "escaping sins." Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. One only needs to go back a few versed to read what Jesus was referring to: Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. Again, you spiritualize this by saying it is in refernce to "sins" when Jesus spoke clearly of the events that would transpire. Then, you somehow conclude that Jesus' words in Revelation are less valid than the ones in the gospels. Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. "If the plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense lest you come up with nonsense." I'll let you have the last word if you want it. Blessings, as always :t:

Yes, we are. But, that time is soon coming to a close.

Nope. That was our faithful Lord Jesus. Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Blessings...

whatsitmean, for some reason the post-tribbers think that God is going to pour out His wrath on His Son's bride. Not a nice thing to do as a Father, dontcha think?

Greetings in Christ to you, too, Dad Ernie. :t: I beg to differ. You didn't "show me anything" except that you were unwilling to continue the discussion after 2 or 3 messages back and forth. If you feel so strontly that I am wrong, and that you are likewise doing the Lords work by correcting my incorrectness, shouldn't you have been a bit more patient? 2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth Now, I know that passage is in reference, in its strict context, to unbelievers, but wouldn't the principle still apply? I take the scriptures literally whenever it makes sense to do so. You do not. For example: Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. I see no reason to not take this passage literally. Yet, you spiritualize it to mean that the 2 witnesses are "two groups of people." Well, if that is the case, then these "2 groups of people" will all be killed and will all simultaneously lie in the streets of Jerusalem and be denied burial. Like I have said before, "If the plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense lest you come up with nonsense." Blessings...

I posted this in another thread, but thought that it was deserving of a more widespread audience. The Bible says that "He who has the Son has life, but he who does not have the Son does not have life." Jesus is life. If we have Jesus, then we have life. This isn't some ethereal "I hope I will be saved in the future" kind of thing. It is present tense. If you have Jesus, right here and now, then you have eternal life right here and now. Jesus said, "He who believes in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whoever believes in Me shall never die." Eternal life is now. It is really that simple. The following messages will bless you immensely as you recognize and understand the simplicity that is in Jesus Christ. You will need RealPlayer installed on your system in order to listen. Both RealPlayer and these messages are FREE to listen to. If you don't have RealPlayer you can CLICK HERE to download and install it. Part 1 -- The Free Gift of Eternal Life Part 2 -- Knowing You Have Eternal Life Blessings...

Although I agree on the danger of basing theology on fiction (Left Behind), I do concur that the pre-trib position is the only one that allows the bible to be taken literally and the only position that doesn't insist on calling God and Jesus both liars. Jesus said that he would come back as a thief... under post-trib this cannot be true. God said to Abraham that He would not judge the righteous with the wicked... under post-trib this also cannot be true. I prefer to listen to God and Jesus over anyone... including Jenkins and LaHaye But, to all my mid and post-trib brothers... This argument will be settled when we meet in the air should the Lord return in our lifetime. Otherwise, we'll see each other also in the air as we return with Jesus Christ at His 2nd coming! Blessings...

2live4christ, take a listen to these 2 very simple and uplifting messages on what life in Christ actually is. This is strictly biblical and these are a couple of messages that I think everyone should listen to. The following messages require that you have RealPlayer installed on your system. Both RealPlayer and these messages are FREE to listen to. If you don't have RealPlayer you can CLICK HERE to download and install it. Part 1 -- The Free Gift of Eternal Lifee Part 2 -- Knowing You Have Eternal Life Blessings...

And that was my point. When you go to these healing services there is only 1 person glorified. The "healer" who usually plants his "people" in the crowd for mock healings. But, Jedi, if you want to think so, then here you go.

Amen! The Church dispensation is completely independent of the 70 weeks laid out for Israel. We're talking apples and oranges here. Blessings...

Did Rochelle use hormonal contraception for any given period of time previously? I know many people who have had trouble conceiving due to the use of hormonal contraceptions used previously in life. Sometimes it is the practical areas that we overlook.

But, if you are post-trib then you will know the day as long as you can count according the writings of Daniel. This is what Jesus taught all throughout the gospels, Paul teaches on in the epistles, and Jesus proclaims in Revelation. So, it is pretty much laced all throughout the NT.

Marilyn, "Webshots" is spyware and you should remove it from your system. Sorry to be the one to deliver the news :hug:

Regarding difficult passages in God's word: "Don't give up what you know, for what you don't know." -- Chuck Smith Regarding Biblical interpretation and hermeneutics: "If the plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense lest you come up with nonsense." -- Unknown, but grand!