elect

Welcome to the boards, Karen. "I read a good analogy about pre-destination and election. The ship (the church) is chosen by God to be His very own vessel. Christ is the Captain and Pilot of this ship. All who desire to be a part of this elect ship and its Captain can do so through a living faith in Christ, by which they come on board the ship. As long as one is on the ship, in the company with its Captian, he is among the elect. If he chooses to abandon the ship and Captain, he ceases to be one of the elect. Election is always only in union with the Captain and His ship. Predestination tells us the ships destination and what God has prepared for those remaining on it. God invites everyone to come on board the elect ship through faith in Jesus Christ." It seems that some church-people will go to any lengths, just so they can imagine away the reality of a universe in which God is in complete control over everything(including salvation). But this is our universe. Ships and boats have not been elected to be in Heaven, but people are elected- "The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth;..." "The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen." 2 Jn.1,13 Do you have a verse from the Bible to support your imagined 'good ship elect'? Maybe you are kind of new at all this christianity thing. Christians arrive at truth from the Bible .

Angels said, "Can somebody please answer my question? When is it cut off time......what is the sin what would break my relationship with God, is there anything? How often can I come back? Angels" You cannot lose eternal life. If you could, it wouldn't be 'eternal' life. It would be 'maybe' life, or 'temporary' life, or something like that. But it would not be 'eternal life'. As for a sin that would be a final turning point, or something of that nature, there are a couple verses that may give some insight- "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." 1 Jn.5.16 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;" Rev.3.7 But these would refer to Christ's sovereign choice towards the lost- not the saved- to never more give them another opportunity to hear and obey the gospel( not that these ever could obey it, but to show how righteous God is in showering mercy after mercy upon these hard-hearted sinners). The saved *are*saved forever because of the unchangable purpose of the Lord to set His everlasting love on them. He knows His own in an almighty, saving way- "You only have I known of all the families of the earth:..." Amos 3.2 'For I am the Lord, I change not; Therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Mal.3.6 "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." Lk.12.32 Such a verse would not be in God's word, if God was only offering a gift that could be rejected, or thrown away by us. Don't you see this? If my salvation was ultimately up to me, I would lose it for sure. We all would-think about it. But my salvation is in a safer place than in my hands- "According as He hath chosen us in Him(Jesus) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." Eph.1.4,5

Historically, RC's have always confounded, and confused, the two biblical doctrines of justification and sanctification. Astralis said, "By your description, Salvation is a process which begins when a person first becomes a Christian, which continues through the rest of his life, and which concludes on the Last Day. This definition allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the Biblical data by saying, "I have been saved; I am being saved; and I will be saved." It embraces all three of the aspects of salvation which are present in the biblical literature - not just take bits and pieces to say once saved, you definitely will go to heaven." The above quote is a description of sanctification , more or less . In fact their confusion on this matter has been so great, that Romish councils and popes have pronounced anathemas on all of us who dare to believe in the Bible's doctrine of justification by grace alone(if its added with 'works', it stops being grace) through faith alone. You may have noticed that the two RCs on this thread are continuously trying to mix 'good works' into the picture. "So, you're saying, you're saved if you believe AND follow Him?" Our Protestant forefathers won this battle long ago. They defined the biblical view of justification in the old Confession- "Those whom God effectually calleth He also freely justifieth; not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous: not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone: not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience, to them as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith: which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God. Rom.8.30; 3.22,24,25,27,28; 4.5-7; Tit.3.5,7; 1 Cor.1.30,31; Rom. 5.17-19; Acts 13.38,39; Eph.2.7,8;..." Assurance is based upon Justification, but we often think of our salvation as being grounded upon our sins, or obedience. When we are aware that we have sinned, we may feel shaken in our assurance of grace and salvation. Even losing assurance for a time. The old Confession defined Assurance this way- "Although hypocrites, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and estate(state) of salvation; which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God; which hope shall never make them ashamed. Job 8.13,14; Deut.29.19; Jn.8.41; Mt.7.22,23; 1 Jn.2.3; 3.14, 18,19,21,24; 5.13; Rom.5.2,5..." "This certainty is not a bare conjectual and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope; but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation, the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made, the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God: which Spirit is the earnest(down-payment) of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption. Heb 6.11,17-19; 2 Pet.1. 4,5, 10,11;...2 Cor.1.12; Rom.8.15,16; Eph.1.13,14; 4.30; 2 Cor. 1.21,22"

Is their some reason why we can't have both? Wisdom, could you give an example of what you mean by, "I've had discussions with people who always want to identify with a particular denomination without ever understanding its doctrinally beliefs." I don't understand why someone would want to be i.d.'ed as a Presbyterian, or a Baptist, without wanting this *because* of the denom's doctrines . Now, many folks are 'born' into a certain church congregation, and do not believe what the pastor is saying. They just go out of habit, and this is sad. We should always understand the doctrines of our church, and attend there because we love the truths taught to us- our spiritual food. (Not that this is the only source of our manna.) I would have to say, that the only good reason for attending any particular church is, because our souls can best be cared for under that spiritual leadership. It *is* the Lord's desire that we be submitted under the care of *some* godly elders or pastor.

Jipsah said, "Actually I find the notion of setting man's will above God's to be false and ridiculous. Not only does it make God subordinate to us in these things, able to set aside His will in order that out own will may be done, but it also precisely makes the sacrifice of Christ of no effect for those who reject Him. We Calvinists believe that ALL those for whom Christ died will come to Him. Arminians believe that He will lose most of those for whom He died. " I love your posts, Jipsah :inlove: " Why are we chosen ? There is nothing special about me. I have been a bad bad sinner, and I still have to fight to get rid of old habits." This question,above, shows some spiritual light shining here! This is the whole point of "few are chosen". If there was anything special about the christian, which moved God to select him instead of others, then salvation would not be of grace. Someone has defined grace and mercy as: Grace is getting what you *don't* deserve, mercy is *not* getting what you *do* deserve. We cannot understand why He chose us, we don't deserve Heaven. We couldn't earn Heaven. But God is so sovereign, that He planned to save every one of His saved ones. And nothing, no one can stop Him- "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest Thou?...and those that walk in pride He is able to abase." Dan.4.35-37