elect

muttly asked, "Are you in a mixed racial marriage? " yes. muttly asked, "what are some hard issues you face? What language/s do you speak?" I use to face hard issues, but now I don't seem to face many. I speak English :sarcasm: . He also asked, "Are you in a mixed faith marriage? " no, thank God. Now *that* would be a *genuine* mixed marraige :butbut: . muttly asked,"How are you coping? do you have advice or warnings on mixed marriages?" We are doing pretty well, thank you. Yes. If you are a christian, don't marry a romanist. Don't marry anybody who is not a Christian .

Sin is any want[lack] of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 Jn.3.4 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them... And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them." Gal.3.10,12

Will asked, "Yet all admit it is what saves us . . . but from what?" You answered this question correctly on Apr.3rd- "Salvation is from SIN".

Rosanne wrote, "There is a verse in the OT where God tells us that he dosen't go for any self-confidence. Yet,I cannot remember where this verse that God dosen't go for any self-confidence in the OT is? " "...but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at My word." Is.66.2 "The Lord maketh poor, and maketh rich: He bringeth low, and lifteth up." 1 Sam.2.7 "Though the Lord be high, yet hath He respect unto the lowly: but the proud He knoweth afar off." Ps.138.6 "It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man." Ps.118.8 "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. ...Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for Whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,..." Phil.3.3f She said, "I cannot find a verse that I have searched for for awhile now. It is where Moses tells God that he can no longer put up with the children of Israel. And,God says,"I know these people,they are stubborn stiff-necked people or something like that. Well,Moses was so fed up that he asked God to let him die already. And,what I like about God's answer is that He did'nt try to make Moses feel guilty for the way he felt or something like that. " "And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the Rock(see 1 Cor.10.4), and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice:..." Num.20.11 "I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too heavy for me. And if Thou deal thus with me, kill me, I pray Thee, out of hand,... ...I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee,..." Num.11.14f "And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation..." Ex.32.9f Moses stood 'in the gap' for Israel, and thus was a picture of Christ.

I am holy(although I don't feel holy) because of what Christ has done for my soul :inlove: . I am a Christian.

Exchristian said, "no more am I going to be "hating" in the name of Jesus Christ." Whose name will you be hating in? Do you think you are better now ? Did you think that being a christian would make you sinless? Are you sinless, now? Are you ready to go to hell? The most loving thing that anyone could tell you is, 'You must part with your love of sinning, or you must part with any comfort or joy for all eternity.' Run (do not walk), but, run to Jesus. He is your only hope. You said, "Sure, I might go to hell ..., but frankly, looking at all the christians I've met and heard, I don't think my Heaven would be there Heaven." There is only one Heaven, its described in the Bible. There is one hell, also. Is the prospect of going there acceptable to you? Unless you run to Jesus, you must go there.

The site seems to be an attack on the Authorized (KJV) Version. One printer's error does not establish a seperate version of the King James .

Yes. I am saved. Yes, the Lord took control. The saving was His doing. I didn't have a vote in it, only an 'amen' . I love my brother. Thanks for the good advice.

Blake, Thanks for the info :thumb: .

Answer to 1st q. We must distinguish between the outward calling and the inward one. When the sinner opens a Bible, and reads; or, when he goes to church(maybe twice a year), and hears the preacher telling him to repent; or, when he picks up a gospel tract, and reads it; he is receiving an outward call- "For many are called, but few are chosen." Mt.22.14 This outward calling can be, and often is, ignored by the sinner. But there is another calling in the pages of scripture. And it cannot be ignored. It has most often in history been referred to as 'effectual calling', or 'irresistible grace'. It always accomplishes the purpose that God sent it for- "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Is.55.11 "No man can come to Me, except the Father...draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn.6.44 That's a promise. No ifs, ands, or buts, about it. God said it, and that settles it. "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me;..." v.37 "...but the Spirit giveth life." 2 Cor.3.6 "Of His own will begat He us..." Jas.1.18 Not our will, but His. "And shall put My Spirit in you, and ye shall live,..."Ezek.37.14 "Yea, before the day was I am He; and there is none that can deliver out of My hand: I will work, and who shall let it?" Is.43.13 "...them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified:..." Rom.8.30 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Rom.11.29 Rather definite, isn't it? 2nd q. Hopefully the verses above show that we are entirely passive, as concerns the effectual calling. We do not act, but we are acted upon. Only after the Spirit comes into the sinner at his new birth will there be any saving faith. For faith is God's gift to the sinner- "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,...faith..." Gal.5.22 3rd q. If you are referring to John 6.29, it says that believing is "the work of God". I do not deny that believing is the work of God.

Racer asked, "Who do you think the "us" and "we" are? Do you claim this statement refers to individual people. " In reference to Eph.1, the "us' and "we" are "the saints"(v.1), those who have been "accepted in the Beloved"(v.6), those redeemed "through His blood'(v.7). They are individuals which make up 'all those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only', as the old Confession says. You added, "Yes. We are called by God. But, He may not choose to call you or me until we're 50. " Then we agree that the Lord is absolutely sovereign in calling His people!? Racer said, "Your pretty good at hiding your sarcasm with sweetness. " There is no sweetness in me, but in God's words there is(Ps.119.103). But thanks for being kind. You added, "I hope you won't be offended, but having observed both of your (yours and Karen's) posts, clearly she is the most learned. Knowledge is one thing. Discernment is another. To actually follow His Word with humility and love is a little harder than being able to quote Scripture." You are so right. I think it very kind of you to defend Karen C. Racer wrote, "And sometimes it's good if we at least attempt to follow our own advice. " "Like I said, sometimes it is wise to heed your own advice" You're right. You said, "That's funny. Clearly I'm not as impressed by jipsah as you. Just by observing his attitude, he clearly is not very knowledgeable of Scripture." We are not able to 'observe his attitude', nor judge his motives. That's the Lord's business. Ours is to seek to be an encourager of those who faithfully wield 'the sword of the Spirit'. Be careful that you do not offend one of these 'little ones that belong to Christ'. If you will be a blessing to the Lord's faithful servants, your reward shall not be forgotten . You asked, "What I know, I have been shown by the Lord. What doctrines is it you think I have bias towards." You are biased against the Bible's doctrine of Predestination and Election. You argue for a works-salvation in your posts. I think that you would despise this system of works in Rome's teachings, but you have adopted a similar 'method of salvation' in your own thinking and trusting. There is a gross inconsistency in this. You would honor the Lord more, if you would embrace the biblical doctrines of grace in salvation. Do you agree that the Lord is sovereign? Racer wrote, "It appears to me, that you are seeking to glorify jipsah" When we love the Lord, we love those who are the Lord's (1 Jn.5.1). It is our privelege to try to be an encouragement to His faithful ones. "...honour to whom honour. Owe no man anything, but to love one another:..." Rom.13.7,8 You added, "Clearly, that's what you and jipsah have set out to do.(In reference to glorifying ourselves.)" We do not glorify ourselves, but our Lord. This is the point of our discussion. If we have chosen God(before He saved us), then we would glorify ourselves. After all, many have not chosen Him. We must receive some credit ,or merit, for our salvation. Its useless to argue otherwise. The fact would remain, that we freely 'faithed Him', or made 'a decision' to give Jesus 'a chance'. But the very point which Jipsah, and I, are contending for is that we were not seeking the Lord, but He found us. He didn't choose us because we were smarter, or better, or holier, than the ungodly. I was, and am, unworthy to be be loved.- "...the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number... But because the Lord loved you, and because He would keep the oath which He had sworn..." Deut.7.6-8

I tend to agree with Ephriam. We *need* to know that Jacob, the Supplanter, was saved. We can identify with the sinner/supplanter, and it is a wondrerful comfort to know that *even* Jacob can be saved. "The God of JACOB is our refuge..! It doesn't say the God of Israel..! Israel is the NEW man..Jacob is the OLD man...! IF the God of Israel (new man)..is our refuge then we ALL need to change first before we get the blessing from God..! But thank God..that it is the OLD man..the "Jacob" type man..the unfinshed..not yet changed man..That takes refuge in God..and GOD does the changing..for us..!"

Chazn wrote, "Note: When one worships "God" it is imperitive that it be the "right" GOD." You said a mouthful there! Welcome to the boards. BTW, that was a pretty good post . Eph said, "Eph writes... the only way of salvation is through Jesus Christ.. Mormons don't place their FAITH in him...So the answer is clear..!" Ephriam strikes again. But you are right . I have a question: Can we expect to get the true scoop on Mormonism from an LDS site? or the truth about Rome from an RC site? or the correct understanding from any site that has been set up to cause us to believe that 'we all worship the same God, and we are all going to Heaven, we are all brothers and sisters(no matter what you believe),etc'.,etc.?? It may be true that we can get some value from reading these sites, but you would have to read between the lines so often in order to see what they are *really* saying .

Astralis said, "Elect, We should probably start it on a new thread if it isn't about Saved or saved then lost. It's up to you.' Its Carl's thread. He started it. Its up to him .

Karen C. wrote, "Tho one thing I do know is that all the knowledge in the world couldn't save the Pharisees. " This is not a rebuttal of your rebuttal . I'm glad that we can be in perfect agreement over some things- like the statement above . Karen added, "Yes, I KNOW all the salvation scriptures, but some people pull a 2 Peter 3:16-18" It must be wonderful to know all those scriptures. I don't think I'm there yet. "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever. Amen." 2 Pet.3.16-18 Beautiful verses! Was there some particular portion that you wanted to apply? You continued, "But 1 Corinthians 1:26:30 should bring the point home." "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:... But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:" 1 Cor. 1.26,30 These must be among my favorite verses. I notice that God's calling and God's chosen are mentioned a couple times in here. Does this mean that you now agree with the Bible's doctrines of God's calling and His chosen ones? You said, "I didn't have a "RELIGIOUS" upbringing, I thank the LORD for that. " If you mean 'a christian upbringing', I would say that you missed out on a tremendous blessing. If you are saying that unbelievers are not religious, I would have to disagree with you. Everybody has a belief system- a sort of religion- depending on how you define it. We all trust somebody. The trouble is, it usually isn't the Lord that we are trusting/believing in. Karen then said, "I read His word, believed it ALL, and was saved, delivered and changed. I've had demons cast out of me, I've been healed PHYSICALLY, mentally, and SPIRITUALLY (ALL before ever attending a church service)." This is amazing. She added, "ALL to the glory of GOD!!!! " Amen. Are you *sure* you're not becoming a Calvinist? This sounds very good to me . And then Karen C. said, "Could I come to your Church and tell them of the wonderful things the Lord has done in my life???" I can't give you permission to do that, but you can tell me. I'll be glad to praise the Lord with you . You said, "I cannot tell you how many people that I have led to Lord. (Not braggin', it's the Lord, not me) I was called to help a lady who was being demonized. I've seen a lady raised out of bed healed... Many other things that His word says shall follow those who believe:Mark 16:15-18. Yes, I even speak and pray in tongues..." Are you sure you're not bragging? When you speak 'in tongues', do these utterances have equal authority with the Bible? If they are words from God, they would be of equal authority with the word of God . I suppose this is my fault. I must have driven you to write like this. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings about knowing things :blush: Karen wrote, "As far as knowledge, well I'm currently studing for my Pastoral license...OOPS. Sorry I don't agree with your doctrine. Because if it would make me compromise what the LORD has taught me. Because I stand on Phil 3:12-15." I looked up the verses, but I didn't see anything there about women pastors . She added, "Sorry I will post no more rebuttals. " Why are you sorry? I don't mind reading your posts. You seem to have a lot to offer. I hope you won't stop posting because of something I said. We are supposed to disagree in these debates. I hope I haven't, inadvertently, been too harsh with you. I honestly tried to control myself, and to soften my first reactions to your previous posts. I probably was not too successful ??? .

Racer asked, "elect, You did a very good job addressing all of the points cited in Karen C's post. However, you neglected to cite scripture to support your disagreements with the points she put forth. Upon what verses do you base predestination on?" "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ... ...in love Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children... ...in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will:" Eph.1.3-5,10f In another place, you said, "Your attitude when speaking to Karen C was condescending and belittling. Karen is apparently just as knowledgeable about Scripture as you appear to be, and just because her beliefs were different, you were belittling. " You addressed this statement to the wrong person. I don't think that my brother said anything to Karen. If anyone was in the wrong towards her, it was me :blush: . And, I hope Karen will forgive me for saying this, but, from her posts, I doubt that she is very knowledgeable about Scripture, not as much as Jipsah . I'm not trying to belittle her. I'm sure she has many excellent qualities, and is a valuable person. But, the brutal fact is that not all of us are equally knowledgeable about the Bible's doctrine of salvation. The important thing is that we know where to find the knowledge, and have a 'teachable spirit'. What I mean by this is, we find our answers in the Bible. We don't think up ways to 'get around' what is clearly taught in the Bible. IMO, you shouldn't argue with Jipsah about this. Sure, you have been taught differently. But, look carefully at the Scriptures on this subject. Seek to honestly understand what the Lord is saying in them. Understand your own bias against these doctrines, and ask the Lord to lead you into His truth. Hopefully, we are all seeking God's glory here. His glory is the most important thing in the universe. He has designed all things to, ultimately, glorify Himself. His salvation plan *must* be one that gives all glory to Him. We can use this forum to glorify ourselves(or try to) by showing that I am right, or you are right, and others are wrong. But that will not have any lasting value to us. If we seek to reflect glory back onto our precious Master, this will last the test of time and eternity.

"Human reasoning proposes that since God is sovereign, He has everything under control, and since He knows everything, everything must be predestined in advance. This led to the idea that those predestined to be lost cannot be saved, and those predestined to be saved cannot be lost.This makes the warnings of Scripture; John 15:6, Heb. 2:1,3; 6:4-6; 10:26-29, meaningless." It is not only 'human reasoning' that 'proposes' this. The Bible clearly states it. Do you doubt that God is sovereign? What do you think that means, if not what is stated above? It is not that knowing God is sovereign 'led to the idea' of predestination. The Bible clearly teaches it. Do you doubt that this doctrine is taught in the Bible? The last sentence is incorrect. The warnings can not be meaningless, but we must understand them as a means to an end for us. But we must be careful not to read into these warnings something that is not there. Arminians do not want to believe clear statements in the Bible concerning predestination and election. But that will not make those passages go away. Attempting to 'read' ships and other things into the Bible, when no such thing is in the Bible, will not make clear Bible passages on these doctrines go away, neither. "When God created Adam and Eve He limited Himself by giving them the ability of choice. The presence of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of Eden shows that. " Nowhere does the Bible indicate that the Lord would 'limit Himself' in the salvation of His bride. We lost the ability to choose God when Adam sinned. WE are the ones who are 'limited', not the Almighty. Do you doubt this? The presence of the tree in the garden shows no such thing as God being limited. "God could have programed us so that we would always do the right thing--but we would have been puppets, machines. He wanted us to be freely responsive to His love and care. Love must be freely given or it is not love. Similarly, salvation is a gift (Eph.2:8)freely given and must be freely recieved." I do not believe that we have been made puppets nor machines by these biblical doctrines. The above statement is an example of human reasoning gone astray. It is a 'strawman'. The sentence about love(being freely given) seems to imply that we can love God first. This is flatly denied in the Bible. The statement about salvation, at the end, is not referring to the kind of gift that God gives. He doesn't just offer salvation to people, so that they can turn it down. When the Lord gives, we are passive. His giving is always complete and successful. His grace is irresistable.- "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?..." Rom.9.19,20 Do you doubt this? Can you get the picture from these verses? Is God's sovereignty in all things spelled out clear enough? Or, are you saying, 'No' to the Lord? You continued, "We can choose to accept God's way of salvation through Jesus Christ or we can reject it, Nor is a one time choice to follow Christ enough. We must continue to make daily choices and keep on following Him (Luke 9:23). " Nowhere does the Bible say this. It says exactly the opposite. We are born dead to any good choices. That is why it is so necessary that we become born-again. Only after the Spirit of Christ comes to us do we want to choose to follow Jesus, never before- "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." Jn.8.36 Do you see the order in that verse?- the Son frees us first, and then( and only then) are we made free. Why do you think the unbelievers continue living in the lifestyle of their sins? Its because they are slaves- "...Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." Jn.8.34 You added, "For individually we are not predestined to do so. What IS predestined is the WAY of salvation and the fact that the Church IS an elect, or chosen, body." The Bible says that people are predestined, not things. Groups are made up of individuals. The Church cannot be chosen without the individual people *in* the Church being elected(chosen). God's way(or plan) is decreed, and within God's Providence. Lets not get terms mixed up. This confusion will not change the clear statements, in the Bible, that individuals are elect and chosen and predestined. These verses have been shown to you before. There is no excuse for denying these biblical doctrines. "When we do believe in Jesus we enter into a fellowship with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ (1 John 1:3). God has given us a part. We must come to Him, and we must come in faith (Heb. 11:6). " We enter into fellowship, but we do not enter into co-Saviour status. Salvation happens first, before we can believe on Jesus. That is why it is of grace. Faith is a gift to us, not our gift to God. Nowhere does the Bible say that God has given us a part in saving ourselves(justification). That is works-righteousness. It is not salvation by Christ's righteousness. It is impossible to please God without faith. But the verse does not say where the faith to please Him comes from. We must come to Him. But the Bible clearly says that we cannot come before God gives first- "...Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Jn.6.65 The Lord has to give eveything to us. He gives the ability to come in faith. He even gives us the faith. We are mere beggers before Him. But most people in the churches don't like a low position like that. They want to have a vote in their salvation. Its a hard blow to our pride. Are you at Jesus' feet? "There is much biblical evidence that God often waits to act until we do our part. In the ministry of Jesus we He came to Nazareth "He could not do any miracles there, except lay His hands on a few sick people and heal them. And He was amazed at their lack of faith.(Mark 6:5-6). Many other examples can be given from Scripture and experience that God works when people ask." There is no biblical evidence of this. The passage in Mark does not mean that Christ was unable, only that He refused to honor disbelief. God is sovereign. He does whatever He wants with His own property(thats us, folks!). The Lord certainly tells us to ask. But this, in no way, means that His hands are tied, and He becomes helpless before His creatures (thats us, again, folks!). You said, " He wants us all to be "God's fellow workers"; and that means He works with us and we work with Him. Prayer is the God-chosen means to make this possible." Not in salvation. The Bible is crystal-clear that Jesus did it all alone. Do you doubt this? We cannot make our prayers heard by God until He chooses to listen. We cannot pray a 'sinner's prayer' until God opens our hearts.

Racer asked, "elect, how do you know that you are one of the 'chosen?" The way that we all may know that we belong to Jesus is by reading the Bible, and checking ourselves to see if we can 'identify' with what we read there about christians. For instance, we may read- "As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after Thee, O God. My soul thirteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?" Ps.42.1,2 We meditate upon this passage, and examine ourselves. Do we pant after God? We can do the same thing with multitudes of verses in the Bible. We can, more generally, answer to ourselves that we have an ongoing hunger and thirst for God's word, we love to attend at a true church(where our souls are being fed), we have a desire to speak to God in prayer. There are times when we pour out our heart to Him. We take hold of His promises, and even His commands are precious to us. We see something of the pit from which we have been saved, and we know what horrid sinners we are. We feel our desperate need for the Lord to fill us, and work in us His own good works. This is a partial answer, at least. I hope it helps. You kindly added, "For all you know, you might think you've been called and saved, but in fact not be. You guys just might be one of the ones He sends away and claims He never knew . . . . " Your question reminds me of some verses in Proverbs- "Open rebuke is better than secret love. Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful." Prov.27.5,6 It is kind of you to care so much for our poor souls, that you would encourage us to 'make our calling and election sure'. If I were to rest my assurance of salvation on my own ability to 'choose' Christ, and keep myself, continuing to not 'backslide' away from the Lord; I would surely be unsure of my salvation. But knowing that it was the Father who chose me, and sent Jesus Christ to die for me, and be raised again for me, and that the Father and the Son covenanted together with the Holy Spirit in my salvation, and they sent the Spirit into my heart, so that I was born again, as evidenced by my ongoing desires for Christ, my lifestyle, and the witness of my own spirit with Christ's Spirit in me, I have this sweet assurance that His promises are mine. I can see His merciful hand guiding in my life. I have this jealosy for the Lord's name and truth, that others might come to know this Sovereign God. And, if at last, it should be My Lord's will that He would choose to be glorified in sending me(a hell-deserving sinner, if ever there was one) to eternal damnation, my prayer is that I would kiss the Hand that smites me, and there proclaim that the Lord is righteous in all that He does- "...It is the Lord: let Him do what seemeth Him good." 1 Sam.3.18

Angels asked, "Few are chosen?" Yes. The words are from Mt.20.16 & 22.14 . The Bible teaches salvation by grace- meaning that the Lord has chosen whom He will save(see Eph.1.4.5). This doctrine is called 'election' in the Bible, and in church history. You added, "We all have a free will and God would love it if everybody would come to Him and accept His Salvation plan through His Son Jesus." I know that what you said is very popular among church-goers, but it has no support in the Bible. I'm sure that you could search through this thread and find other verses (besides the ones cited above ) that demonstrate to the willing hearer that the popular belief you stated is man's ideas only, and contrary to the clear testimony of Scriptures. The very idea of God's sovereignty would give us some inkling of the Lord's right to do what He will with His own- "Is it not lawful for Me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?" Mt.20.15

Jean-Claude said, "As I said in my post. The scriptures that you refer to need to be placed in their proper context. They certainly can be given a different kind of interpretation than what you give them. But how can you give a different kind of interpretation to "The gifts and callings of God are irrevocable" Rom 11:29, in any other way than what it says? How can you give a different kind of interpretation to "I know that whatever God does, He does forever. Nothing can be added to it, and nothing can be taken away from it. He does this so that man should fear before Him." Ecc 3:14 in any other way than what it says? Yet a different interpretation to theses two verses (among others) must be required if indeed the conclusions you come to as to the meaning of the scriptures you quoted in your post are correct; because if the gift of salvation, the gift of righteousness and the other gifts can be revoked, (which would be the case if one can loose their salvation) then Rom 11:29 and Ecc 3:14 must mean something else than what they say!" This is a good post and an excellent point. Munari said, "In verses 16 - 24, it seems as if Paul is saying the gifts ARE revocable " The Spirit, by Paul, is saying no such thing, as can be seen from verse one of the chapter- "...Hath God cast away His people? God forbid..." Munari's interpretation is wrong. "This of course is speaking of the Jews and Gentiles being grafted to the tree of eternal life, whom is Christ." The apostle is speaking 'as a man'(Rom.3.5), from a human view-point about what had happened in Acts 28.24-28. The Jews having rejected the Gospel, the apostle turns from them to the Gentiles. By giving the gospel to one group, and not giving it to another group, a door of salvation was being opened to the Gentile world. But no saved person lost his salvation at that time, nor ever. The Lord will not cast away His elect ones(Jew or Gentile)- "God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew..." Rom.11.2 Munari continues, "It tells us that we, who are mostly Gentiles on this board, must be cautious because if God will not spare his chosen race, the Jews, we too will not be spared if we wander off the path." The warning is to be used as a help to keep us watchful. It is not a promise, nor even an implied possibility, of anyone truly saved losing his salvation. Many think themselves in a saved state while attending 'a church' once a week. These are the ones who will , at the last, find themselves not grafted in. But there is no teaching of losing salvation here. "So, the implication is that Paul is saying that we CAN lose our salvation." Nonsense. This is what Jean-Claude must be referring to when he posted about "implications" being insufficient evidence, while clear statements are more certain. And I would certainly agree with him. Munari said, "God does not throw those broken branches away, but keeps them in case they return to life. In other words, the branches that were a part of Christ can die and then come back to him. The meaning is this, God's gift are never taken away, they are irrevocable. However, we can reject those gifts, we can not use them, we can refuse them. " This is pure guess-work. God's will is not subject to our will. "You can compare God's gift to that sweater your aunt gave you for your birthday. You can't give it back, but you can decide whether or not you want to wear it. And like some sweaters, some people view them as beautiful, other's view them as ugly. Christians view God's gifts as beautiful and use it, but we can become soured on that gift and later stop using it. " A poor comparison. Your aunt is not the sovereign ruler of Heaven and Earth. Munari said, "God's mercy is the fact that he allows us to wobble " Its not mercy, and its not a fact. But you are doing enough wobbling to do cartwheels. ???

Munari, From your posts, I would have to say, "Seek the Lord". I hope you are not insulted by that. I only want whats best for you. My opinion is of the same value as the Pope's, or anyone else- its fallible. You added, "I have a question, will good save you against your will?" I'm not sure if you wrote what you meant or if you meant to say "God", instead of "good", so, being long-winded, I'll try to answer both ways : Q. Will God save you against your will? A. The short answer is 'no'. But what do we have to do with *short* answers?! . The Lord is all-powerful, and He has an Almighty way of sweetly, but surely, making you willing- "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power,..." Ps.110.3 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Phil.2.13 "Because thy rage against Me, and thy tumult, is come up into Mine ears, therefore will I put My hook in thy nose, and My bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest." Is.37.29 Q. Will good save you? A. No. Not against, with, or instead of, our will.- "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Is.64.6

Munari asked, "how do YOU know that God knows you are saved? That's the crux. God knows who is and who isn't saved, we won't know for sure until we are in Heaven." When we are given faith to trust Him. Carl has given some excellent verses already in his last post. One of them was in 2 Cor. chap.5. If you will look that verse up, look also at the seventh verse- "(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)" 2 Cor.5.7 It is normal for us to want to walk by sight; that is, we want an absolute guarantee of Heaven for our souls. The Lord has provided, in His own way, for that assurance. But it must happen in *His* way, not the way we would dictate and demand from Him(if we could). All the work has been done for His elect children. We are even given faith to believe that Christ's sacrifice is *enough*. Now the faith that we are given is enough, but our assurance wavers. As someone said 'we often tremble upon the Rock, but the Rock never trembles under us.' Its alright if your assurance is not strong at all times. But *know* that there is no deficiency in God's plan. Read the Bible daily, pray earnestly to know His saving grace in your life. Take hold of those precious promises in the Bible. Make them your constant companions in all of life. We know that we *can* have a firm confidence that we will *be with Jesus*, because of the language of the Bible, and the trust we have in this God, that we have come to know, as a God who plans perfectly and completes His purposes without any glich. We come to know Him by the gift of His Spirit in us, and by studying to show ourselves approved unto God. This is the Lord's way. Trust Him to do all His good pleasure. Seek for the good fruit in your own life. The problem of lacking assurance is usually of our own making. We are truly our own worst enemies, in many respects. When we live in known sin, we injure, or rob ourselves of, assurance. But the other extreme is just as bad. I mean when we are trusting to our own 'contribution' to 'our salvation'. We will destroy ourselves, if we try to add anything to Christ's perfect and completed work at Calvary. If we try to add 'our faith', as a cause of salvation; or our penance, or our prayers( as a cause, or a reason, for God saving you), or *any* good work which we have done, or will do; we are defeating the purpose of Jesus' coming here(as far as we, ourselves, are concerned). That is why it is so important that you come to a right understanding of God's salvation plan, and to a Gospel that truly saves to the uttermost(even to the gutter-most), and truly gives all the glory to God- where it belongs. You cannot do this, though, while you are clinging to some doctrine of 'co-operating' with God to save you. For *that* would not be grace, and the Lord's salvation is grace- "Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord of hosts. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zarubbabe[Christ is our Zerubbabel] thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it." Zech.4.6,7 Please look up the verses that Carl has given, they will help you, if you have the Spirit.

Angels said, "Elect, thak you for ansering my question, I agree with you for 100% ,we can not play games with God, one day saved, other day lost...... my God is able to keep me until the end, and nobody can pluck me out of His hand!!" Isn't it comforting to know this truth?! And also, "How can that be if I'm forgiven already? Jesus purified me when He accepted me and the Bible says I'm a saint, is that not enough? I'm looking for heaven, not for purgetory,what do you think happens in purgetory? do we get Bible teaching? How can we be more purified then being washed in Jesus Blood?" Nothing but the Blood! Do you see how great the differences are between us and the RC's on salvation? Either Jesus saves, or He doesn't. If He saves, then He saves all the way to Heaven(do not pass purgatory, do not collect flames or punishment). If your sins are paid for, they're paid for! If they are not, the flames will *not* be temporary. Munari said, "There's some theological differences here" Thats a tremendous understatement. :sarcasm: " I do realize that "lose our salvation" is kind of rediculous when speaking about God because God knows if we are going to be saved or not from the start." Hold onto that thought, Munari . How could God know something that was uncertain? If He knows it, its certain. He knows the final end because He chooses it(Eph.1.4,5).

Karen said, "Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all " But the verses you gave do not say this . "Election... (John 3:16-17; 1 Tim 2:4-6;Titus 2:11; Heb. 2:9) becomes actual for paticular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God's gift " I'm sorry, but your verses don't say this . If what you say is true, then salvation is of works(repenting, believing, accepting). But we can never believe and repent before the Father elects us(Acts 13.48). "At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into the elect " There is no Biblical evidence for this statement . "thereby becoming one of the elect. " This is 'putting the cart before the horse', and giving the glory for salvation to man, instead of God :???: . "Thus, both God and humans have a decision in election" I'm sorry, but the verses you gave don't say this . "The election ... is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals in the body remains conditional on their personal living faith... and preserverance with Him. " Where is the Biblical proof for this double-talk? It sounds like salvation depends on our works, after all(if this were true) . "Acts, and read 27:31. Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, "EXCEPT these abide in the SHIP, ye cannot be SAVED"." This ship was smashed to pieces(Acts 27.41, 44). I hope that you are not suggesting that we all get on board a ship that doesn't exist anymore . Besides, it wasn't much of a ship to trust in. Do you want us all to drown in your imaginary ship? "on the wedding supper of the Lamb. Matt 22:1-14. How appropriate. The main thing is the wedding garment...For many are called, but few are chosen.." I'm afraid this went over my head. It doesn't say that the guests came to the servants. The servants were sent to the guests :???: . Could it be that you are seeing things in here that are not there? " I love John 14:21, He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. That is awesome!!" Please don't think that I'm saying that we can disobey the commandments. I'm not saying that. Obedience is both a fruit, and an evidence of salvation .