GoodSamaritan

You think you understand the fullness of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory? What he's saying is that we nor he understand the fullness of these states of being. Is this reasonable or are we, in our imperfect human state, able to grasp this? Not even righteous St. John had any inkling in the story of Revelations. He sees a 'mere' angel and falls on his face and starts worshipping him! I think the Pope has a point here--we have NO inkling what Hell, Heaven, and Purgatory look, taste, smell, sound, or feel like. Still, being eternally absent of God should scare us more than anything imaginable (or UN-imaginable). The Pope does not deny a physical location of Hell but says its' properties go beyond a simple locale. How can you deny that WE choose Hell? God does not choose it for us but rather, we end life in communion with Him or we reject Him totally--both OUR choice, not God's. Should we willingly turn away from Him, Hell is what we merit. Granted, the ultimate judgement is God's but His job is easy, as we have already made His judgement so. Why do I see a 'Pope denies that Hell exists!' diatribe being posted here? The Catechism is really clear about Hell. Don't forget to read the 'note' at the bottom of the ewtn article--it clears up a lot: *[Note: The original Italian says, "(Pi

Mary was as just as in need of a Savior as we all are! Ah, another Catholic shooting gallery, lovely! Funny but arguments such as the one made about Mary needing a savior as well just shows how little you know about Catholic teaching regarding her Immaculate Conception. Did ya know that the Church also says that She required salvation from Her Son? If anyone wishes to discuss the issues fully and respectfully, PM me and we can do this. This thread will soon degenerate into anti-Catholic attacks not even pertaining to doctrine as they always do around here. PM me to discuss the issues and we can then create a thread from the discussion that will hopefully teach rather than insult. God Bless and God be with you! GS

Well put, ServingHim. This Melchizedek priesthood is the key to the NT sacrfice, IMO. Here's a couple of more resources regarding this rarely mentioned but very important character: http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/eucharist/eucharist_9.htm http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.a...64&art_id=17549 GS

Once again, you make the assertion but don't tell me WHY. What assumption does the Catholic Church make that any other Christian 'denomination' does not? I certainly did not make any assumptions with regard to the saints. Remember, we went through every point on that line to make sure it was Scritpural (even though we Catholics don't hold Scripture as the SOLE rule of faith, per Scripture's command). I've got no problem with the criticism of my faith but i'll need more than you've provided with regard to Saints or any other doctrine/dogma. Just calling it 'circular' doesn't help. Look at the entire context of the verse you cite here. It's actually giving you the answer you want regarding the 'dead': Now if Christ be preached, that he arose again from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen again. And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain: and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God: because we have given testimony against God, that he hath raised up Christ, whom he hath not raised up, if the dead rise not again. For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again. And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain: for you are yet in your sins. Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. In verse 12, Paul says (paraphrasing) 'How in the world can you say that there is no resurrection of those who have left this earth? If you deny this, you deny Christ's saving power!' Verse 16 says, 'For if the dead rise not again (present tense, not future), neither is Christ risen (present tense). This is what I meant when I said yesterday that if you deny the Saints are in Heaven, you deny Christ's Resurrection and call the Apostles liars. Check out v. 35 and on: But some man will say: How do the dead rise again? Or with what manner of body shall they come? Senseless man, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die first. And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be: but bare grain, as of wheat, or of some of the rest. But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption: it shall rise in incorruption. It is sown in dishonour: it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness: it shall rise in power. It is sown a natural body: it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit. Those who are risen (and there ARE those who are risen, Scripture tells us) are given an incorruptible nature. This explains why saints are able to appear in dreams to people, appear in apparitions to people, and affect earthly things. Things do not happen as coincidence with God. Was it a coincidence that the meeting of Jesus, Elijah, and Moses took place within the view of humans? Are we or are we not supposed to imitate Christ? Well, Christ had contact with spiritual beings who were obviously alive and incorrupt. We, being of flesh, are limited in our abilities to communicate with the saints and so no two way communication takes place. You say Scripture never encourages us to petition them--this is an argument from silence. I believe the OPPOSITE to be true. Check out Job 5:1: Job 5:1: Call now! Will anyone respond to you? To which of the holy ones will you appeal? The Holy Ones in this verse are, of course, the angels, Heaven not being opened by Christ's resurrection yet. Job's three friends who are talking to him in chapter 5, are saying, "Job, you are wrong. You must not complain against God! See, you could even call on all the saints(angels are saints too) now to ask them to intercede for you, but they won't, because you are wrong!" The assumption here is that the Jews believed in petitioning the saints; it wasn't some invented doctrine but a fulfillment of the Jewish doctrine/type. Remember, in the OT, the type is always immeasurably inferior to the reality of the NT fulfillment. So it goes with the saints. First, you still haven't proven the saints (or angels, for that matter) to be dead because they are in Heaven. If you look at the OT, angels have always been intercessors between humans and God. You see instances of Isaiah's sins being forgiven when an angel touches his lips--subordinate mediation. In Baruch 3:4, Baruch asks God to 'hear the prayers of the dead of Israel'. What does this mean? Zechariah 1:8-13 shows people of Israel speaking to an angel regarding their captivity and suffering. The angel petitions God saying: 'O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem, and on the cities of Juda, with which thou hast been angry? this is now the seventieth year.' God answers the angel with: 'Cry thou, saying: Thus saith the Lord of hosts: I am zealous for Jerusalem, and Sion with a great zeal.' Is this the Heavenly intercession you're looking for? Here is a clear example of how the communion of saints works, only the NT saints are the fulfilled version of the type you see here. We're not saying that we worship saints or give them what we give God. Those of us on earth invoke the prayers of the saints in heaven, honor them as glorified Christians and seek to imitate them. They also pray for the souls in purgatory. THe veneration of saints/devotions to angels and saints no more interfere and corrupt the glory of God than does the love we have toward friends and family. It's more than merely mental inspiration. God's glory is reflected in his sons and daughters. They are venerated because God is present in them. A good analogy is the painter who is most honored when his masterpiece is complimented, because he knows such praise reflects back on himself. At any rate, i appreciate the respectful discourse we've had--i'm late for a pre-Mass rosary! God be with you all! GS The Bible never says a lot of things--it doesn't say that it is the sole rule of faith, it doesn't say that the books in it are the CORRECT books, it never says that Jesus was fully God and fully man, it doesn't tell us who wrote the Book of Acts, and it doesn't tell us that the Holy Spirit is one of the three persons of the Trinity. This does not hinder us from knowing the answers to these questions via the revelation made to the Church by Jesus. What came first, the Church or NT Scripture? Answer: the Church. During all those years that the Christian world was without an infallible canon of Scripture, the Church was in force and petitioning saints.

There's some amazing theology on that network, it's too bad many of the presenters have the charisma of a snail. Did I just say that? :x: GS

Well, you told me it's circular reasoning but didn't tell me why! I don't see it--wanna help me out, please? GS p.s. I tell my wife I'm very smart all the time and she just laughs...

You didn't refute my argument that Moses actually, physically DIED in Deuteronomy 34, yet was seen ALIVE with Jesus and Elijah at the Transfiguration. What does this prove? First, that those who have died in God's friendship arenot asleep, but very much ALIVE. Second, it proves that they do appear and intercede on earth with human witness. Now, to further prove that the saints are ALIVE, Scripture is filled with examples. You, in thinking in human terms, consider one whose body dies, to be dead. This is a flawed assumption (pardon the pun). The twenty-four elders of Revelations 5 represent the hierarchy of the people of God in heaven (just as the four living creatures represent the hierarchy of the angels of God in heaven), and here they are shown presenting our prayers to God under the symbol of incense (which is, in fact, what incense symbolizes in church, since it is a pleasing smell which rises upward). If you say that they are the prayers TO God and not to the saints, you must admit, then, that those in heaven are aware of prayers which weren't even directed to them, further proving they are alive! You also assert that this practice of praying to, and petitioning people who have left this earth, was never part of the NT Church. You give no evidence, however. This is because there IS no evidence--all the evidence is to the contrary. The first century catacombs which housed the bodies of the martyrs, contained prayer after prayer FOR the dead and TO the dead--this is a historical fact. Clement of Alexandria, a giant of the Church who was a presbyter who aided in eventually determining the canon of Scripture, did NOT think the saints were dead: "In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]). How can the choir of saints do ANYTHING if they are dead? You see, all the objections you have cited hinge on whether the saints are dead or alive. The historic church believed and taught that they were alive, Scripture sure proves they are alive, and using reason, why would someone whose body dies but is in God's favor be WEAKER in Heaven than they are on Earth. We know this to be false. Amen, but the first Christians realized that our High Priest utilizes those who receive his gifts to petition for us as well. Origen, in 233, wrote what everybody already believed and practiced: "But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]). Think logically here. What do we call a Father who fathers several different families? The Body of Christ is ONE, not many. Where does Scripture EVER stipulate that those on earth are part of a different 'Body' than those who have passed on? Romans 8 is addressing, in v 33, 'the ELECT of God'. Therefore, the love of Christ is synonymous with the Body of Christ or, as in v 33, also called 'the ELECT of God'. Eph 4:4 calls us 'One body and Spirit who is above all, through all, and in all'. What does Romans 12 tell you here: For as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ; and every one members one of another: And having different gifts, according to the grace that is given us, either prophecy, to be used according to the rule of faith; Or ministry, in ministering; or he that teacheth, in doctrine; He that exhorteth, in exhorting; he that giveth, with simplicity; he that ruleth, with carefulness; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. Let love be without dissimulation. This says that we have ONE body, not one for the 'living' and one for the 'dead'. But it also says that we are called to be intercessors in the ONE intercessor--Christ. Nowhere does it say we are NOT to intercede, rather we are to intercede BECAUSE we are in the ONE intercessor. Check out Eph 3: And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God who created all things: That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church, According to the eternal purpose which he made in Christ Jesus our Lord: This says that even before man was created, God's plan was to have the Church teach the 'manifold wisdom of God' to even the angels and those in Heaven (the Saints are in Heaven). The saints are part of the Church and, therefore, are taught by it. So when Paul exhorts ALL to 'imitate me, for I am of Christ!', the saints receive their command that Paul gives in 1 Tim:2: I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour The cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1) are to pray for us and for all men! Well, why don't you tell me why you would ask me or your spouse to pray for you. Since Christ is the sole mediator, as you put it, why would you want a friend to intercede on your behalf? Answer: Because the Word of God commands it! Refer back to the Scripture which says we are all to be mediators in the ONE mediator. This is why. Secondly, God chooses to use us, His Body, to propsper in the gifts given to us to use. Third, Scripture tells us that sin affects God's ability to hear our prayers. James 5:16 says 'the prayer of a righteous one availeth much'. If they are in Heaven, made perfect by God, I'd say the saints are much more righteous than you or I. Their prayer is stronger because they are without sin. Amen! This is why the saints were resurrected and glorified in Heaven as well. Why did people go to the Holy of Holies? To make sacrifices to God. 1 Peter 2 says: Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. We are to continue to offer sacrifices to God and God alone. Catholicism does not make sacrifices to saints or Mary. But think about what a sacrifice IS--it's an intercession to God on behalf of His people! In Catholicism, it's the priest who does this FOR us. The priest, therefore, is doing what Peter commands and what Paul commands in making intercessions for us. We've already shown that examples are in Scripture and in the everyday workings of the Christian Church--what more do you want? I've yet to see a single reference saying it was EVER contrary to Christian teaching to pray to God thru saints. Au contraire. The devil gets his head handed to him by God every time we obey Him. By saying the saints are dead, we actually take away the mediatorship and saving power of Jesus. For Jesus himself said that in the Resurrection, God was the God of the living. When He was raised, many spirits were raised and entered the city to interact with people. By saying the saints are dead and ineffectual, we deny that Christ's Resurrection was what he said it was--an intercession to the Father to make all creation among the living again. The devil WANTS us to disavow the saints because, in doing so, you disavow the one who elected them--Jesus. If you choose to take one verse and ignore the rest of Scripture, you WOULD be correct. If you take into account what transpired through Jesus in the Resurrection, then the physically dead are a different thing than the spiritually alive. You have tons of NT references to the living in Heaven, yet you still claim these souls to be dead? Under Mosaic Law, people were forbidden to conjure up spirits through mediums and such--two way contact with the dead. Prayer is, first of all, not a two way connection--we petition saints, they do not talk back. Second, we see instances of saints who were dead (Moses) come back and interact on earth. Use the full backpack, not just one verse. Hebrews 12:18-24 expounds on the differences between the OT saints and the power of the NT saints--those perfected: For you are not come to a mountain that might be touched and a burning fire and a whirlwind and darkness and storm, And the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, which they that had excused themselves, that the word might not be spoken to them. For they did not endure that which was said: and if so much as a beast shall touch the mount, it shall be stoned. And so terrible was that which was seen, Moses said: I am frighted, and tremble. But you are come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, And to the church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel. The blood of Abel? Remember when Cain had just killed Abel and God told him, 'The Blood of Abel already cries out to me!'. Well, he contrasts the OT intercession with the NT intercession of those made PERFECT. This is what happened when Jesus rose--all those spirits were made perfect and enjoyed new power of intercession. I know this is a lot to digest--reference the Scripture and think 'in the spirit' rather than through limited human perception. Don't put the power of God into a parameter just because you can't SEE, HEAR, TOUCH, or SMELL the saints. It ain't called the 'Mystical Body of Christ' for nothing... GS

consults the dead. Just provide me the verse that says the saints are dead. Every verse I've provided seems to show that they are ALIVE, not dead. So consulting the dead doesn't apply in the case that the saints, who are alive in Heaven in Revelations 5, 6, 8, 21and 22. We also see saints interceding for people on earth in 1 Sam 28:12-15, interacting with people in the Transfiguration, and actually helping a soldier in battle in 2 Macc 15:13-16. We also see Ruth in Heaven praying for and interceding for her family in the OT. How, if they are dead, can this be? Moses, in Deut 34, DIES: Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab upon mount Nebo, to the top of Phasga over against Jericho: and the Lord shewed him all the land of Galaad as far as Dan. And Moses the servant of the Lord died there, in the land of Moab, by the commandment of the Lord: And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre until this present day. How is it that Moses was speaking with Jesus at the Transfiguration then? Scripture (Romans 8:34-39) tells us that death cannot separate us from the Body of Christ. So when a saint dies, they STILL remain alive in Heaven. 1 Jn 3 says when we die we will be 'like Him and see Him as He is'. If the dead are in Heaven and are like Him, this means they are imitating him. If they are imitating Christ in Heaven, then they are praying for those on earth, not playing golf. Paul speaks of the cloud of witnesses in our corner--who are these people? You see that it's all the saints whom the author is talking about/relaying stories about in the very same book. Can you really say these saints are 'dead' or are they just gone from earth and perfected in Christ? GS

Ditto. You're in my prayers. GS

But all will sin when they come to the knowledge of Good and Evil. Babies do not have that knowledge, every man has that knowledge so all men have sinned and fallen short and need grace through the Messiah Jesus. What about mentally retarded? Physiologically, they are men but mentally, they may still be children--can they sin? Show us in Scripture where they can or cannot. It's important to make the distinction between the two types of sin talked about in Scripture--personal sin and Original Sin. They are linked but are VERY different. GS

I don't see the words "original sin" once in the bible. It was invented by early theologans, namely saint thomas aquinas. IMO, this cannot be your only standard for reading the Bible and for your ensuing belief. Look for CONCEPTS and bonafide teachings, not esoteric names for those teachings, for as doctrine develops and is defined, we see it also named. So are we to understand that you also do not believe in the Trinity? How about the Holy Spirit being God? How about the 'Incarnation'? The word 'Christianity' is not in Scripture either, so do you not believe in IT as well? Heck, even the word 'Bible' is not in the Bible. See my point? If you obsess over TITLES and not actual CONCEPTS/TEACHINGS written about, you miss key points of the Christian faith. St. Thomas did not 'invent' Original Sin, the concept. Jews and Christians alike taught and believed in this principle long before Aquinas gave it the name. If you look at the Scripture, St. Paul was teaching it in the first century in his Epistles. Augustine himself references 11 separate testimonies of the early Christians regarding this concept in his own writings--does this sound like HE himself invented this? I've seen the arguments made for Original Sin not being Scriptural, Historical, or Reasonable. They either argue from silence or just don't quite understand the full implications of Original Sin, IMO. GS

Frankly, I have no interest in tradition. I just want to understand the Bible. You can bag Tradition if you like but you'll still need to answer the question. GS

the second half, however, is strictly forbidden by scripture... we are not to communicate with mortal individuals who have died, so asking mary for help is not only pointless, it's a violation of God's commands to us. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren

Born, raised, and currently residing in: 'La Villa de la Santa Fe de San Francisco de Assisi' (for you non espanol speakers, 'The Royal City of the Holy Faith of Saint Francis of Assisi')--Santa Fe, New Mexico. GS

I think we miss the majesty of God. We really have no idea how powerful and glorious He is, because we have never seen Him. Check out how John the Apostle reacts when he sees the glorified Christ in Revelations: And in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, one like to the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the feet, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. And his head and his hairs were white as white wool and as snow. And his eyes were as a flame of fire: And his feet like unto fine brass, as in a burning furnace. And his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars. And from his mouth came out a sharp two-edged sword. And his face was as the sun shineth in his power. And when I had seen him, I fell at his feet as dead. You'd think that John may have saw Jesus and said, 'Hey Jesus! Long time no see! How sweet it is to be with you again!' But instead, he sees Jesus and fell as though dead! We often put Jesus into a box which we can understand but, IMO, we miss the majesty and the sheer radiant glory of Him because we have no way to relate to it. If an apostle, the BELOVED apostle and Jesus' cousin no less, fell as though dead, what will we do? GS