Massorite

The name "Melchizedek, means "The Prince/King of Righteousness or The Prince/King of Peace/Salem. In the book of Hebrews chapter 7 in verse 1 it says the Melchizedek, is the priest of the Most High God, In verse 3 it says that Melchizedek is without Father or Mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of days of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. So what can we groom from all of this information? #1. First of all there is only one King of Righteous and his name is Jesus Christ. #2. We know from the word of God that Melchizedek did not have a Father or a Mother or any relatives, Which means that He was not concieved like you and I were, He was created by God without using a humasn to do it. #3. He has no beginning of days and no ending of life, which means that He has always been and will live forever, is still alive even from the days of Abraham and will never die. And to this very day still remains the Priest to the Most High God. And lastly, when we give our money up on Sunday or any other day, who are we giving it to? Non other than the Most High God. The word of God says that "if you have seen me you have seen the Father. (Words of Jesus Christ) So who was it that Abraham gave a tenth of all he took from the kings who took his brother. The Conclusion? Melchizedek was Jesus Christ who was created by God, who has alway been and always will be, who is God incarnate as we know him, who is and always has been the one and only King of Righteousness, who is and always will be the King of the city of Jerusalem which is the city of Peace, who is and always will be the Priest to the Most High God. A lot of people have trouble with this bit of truth but what the hay. I am not the paper boy, all I did was research the scriptures given to all us about Melchizedek and the bible says what it says. Who am I to argue with what the word of God says?

which means "the grave" and is "The place of Departed Souls" and there is no disguishment between Good souls or Bad souls. It is simply the place of departed souls.

The question you ask is a very common one and worthy of an answer. Unfortunatly many people blame God for what man has done and are always asking questions like yours. Here is what I know from scripture. God gave us a very special gift just like he did the angels he also created. He gave us "The Choice To Choose" and we can choose to kill or not to kill for any reason we see fit whether it be for murder or self defence. I don't believe that Adam and Eve were meant to die a death as we know it. However when Adam did not do his God given job, which was to keep watch over Eve to make sure that she kept the only law God gave them to obey, which was not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, sin, death and destruction was introduced into the perfect world that God created. So because of Adams failure to do what was right, the body began to age, become deceased and to die. And we are still suffering for what Adam failed to do. It is never God's dicision to allow children to die, but it was our choice to allow sin and destruction into the world. God didn't allow those children at Sandy Hook to die. It was the choice of one man who was mentally unstable to go out and commit mass murder. It was not the will of God to elect an anti-christ to lead the single most powerful nation on the face of the earth. It was God honoring the choice of the people just like when the people rejected God as thier leader asked God to give them a king like the rest of the world had. So God gave them what they wanted when he gave them Saul as thier King and ruler.

8 "This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.” Sorry but this is a really bad translation. In fact it is so bad that the true meaning of this verse has been completely changed from its original context. Niether the word "captives or the word train" are found, do not exist and can not be found in any of my researsch books when researching this verse. You need to throw the bible you got that verse out of away or better yet you should burn it. Because it is tainted and a long ways from being a rightly divided word from the word of God. No insult intended. Just good advice. Actually all NIV's should be burnt because they have revised the word to the point distruction. Think about it. You have to buy a special Strongs Concordance that is specifically set up for the NIV because the translation can not be used with thge original Strongs because so many words and verses have been changed. Therefore He says: "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, AND GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." This is the correct translation. As for 2 Cor. 5:6-8 I can not see at all how you get what you are getting out of this verse. If you preach "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." it is a completely false and misleading teaching because you have quoted only half of the verse. But if you quote the whole verse it simply says that "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." This verse says nothing at all about going to heaven at the moment of death

Show me some scripture that say "Steven went to heaven" We must remember that Jesus is our example and all that happened to him will happen to us which means that we will first decend into the lower reaches of the earth before we are raised from the grave. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "this day you shall be with me in paradise" now we all know that Jesus first decended and since the thief went with Christ that very death which is the day of His death, the thief went with Christ into Paradise. Desiring "to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: IS A LONG WAYS FROM BEING CLOTHED WITH OUR HEAVENLY CLOTHING. Well read this again What did Stephen see before being stoned ? - Jesus Was this not Jesus coming for him ? - sure Stephen was a educated man in the Gospel and asked Jesus to come and get him he knew his body was going to die. So the flesh died and Stephen moved out a live spirit and went to heaven and not to be naked he got an heavenly body. Why would you want to raise a dead body when you are already alive in heaven ? God has to speak a body back into existence so that ____________________________ ? what purpose ? If the body is going to be raised from the grave and then changed into a heavenly body anyway, why come back down here and be dead again and be resurrected from out of the ground, just get it while you are already up there. You said "Was this not Jesus coming for him ? - sure" and this statement is wrong. In the scriptures you are talking about Jesus isn't coming or going. The scripture says that Jesus "IS STANDING AT THE THRONE OF GOD". "Standing" is not a motion word. Again you said "Stephen was a educated man in the Gospel and asked Jesus to come and get him he knew his body was going to die". Where in the bible does it say that Jesus was asking Jesus for anything? Holy Moly if there is anybody who adds to what scripture really says it is you. Stephen never asks Jesus to come and get him at anytime. Nor does the bible ever say that Jesus came to get Stephen at any time. In fact nothing is spoken at all about where Stephen went after he died. Where are you getting this stuff? You asked a great question which gives doubt to this going to heaven the moment we die "Why would you want to raise a dead body when you are already alive in heaven?" No one including God would need to raise a dead body if that person was already living in heaven. But if one is still in the grave and not in heaven then God would need to speak that person out of the grave. Which God will do on the day of resurrection of the dead in Christ. Because no one is already in heaven. :clap: Massorite, are you advocating "Soul sleep"? What is your view on the Jehovah's Witnesses? God bless, GE There are several denominations like Jahovahs Witnesses, Church of Christ, the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists and more that did not exist before this country was settled. We came here in the first place to escape religeous persecution. But what happened in our effort/zeal to become free of persecution these new denominations picked small sections out of the word of God and made a whole denomination out it, complete with a whole set of false doctrinal beliefs. The result is that most of thier religeous beliefs are not according to the word of God but bits and pieces are. So with that in mind I am saying that I do believe in a "Soul Sleep" but not because of what the Jahovahs Witnesses believe, but because Jesus himself called death a state of sleep. Just because these off the wall denominations believe a particular doctrine doesn't mean that it is all wrong according to scripture. Because some of thier beliefs are acoding to scripture.

Still no scripture to back your statements up? You should remember that a Christian in right standing with God ALWAYS researches scripture to make sure that he/she is correct. As for me? I do heavy research in every scripture I quote and everything I say about the word of God. You said, " what is the dead in Christ ?" and the answer is 1 Th. 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." Read this verse carefully and you will see that it says nothing about going to heaven before Christ come to get us but it does say that the dead in Christ shall rise first. Christ is in us and we are in Christ. Hence when we die we are dieing while Christ is in us which make us DEAD IN CHRIST. You asked," is there anything showing dead in the grave for us?" Doesn't this verse "that the dead in Christ shall rise first"? Are we not rising from the grave at this point in time. If we are already in heaven how is it that we will raise. Bother when we die we go to the grave justr as Jesus did and when he come back we will rise from that grave to meet him in the clouds/glory of God on the day he returns. Got to go right now but I will be giving some more scripture us in the grave. Still no scripture to back your statements up? You should remember that a Christian in right standing with God ALWAYS researches scripture to make sure that he/she is correct. As for me? I do heavy research in every scripture I quote and everything I say about the word of God. You said, " what is the dead in Christ ?" and the answer is 1 Th. 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." Read this verse carefully and you will see that it says nothing about going to heaven before Christ come to get us but it does say that the dead in Christ shall rise first. Christ is in us and we are in Christ. Hence when we die we are dieing while Christ is in us which make us DEAD IN CHRIST. You asked," is there anything showing dead in the grave for us?" Doesn't this verse "that the dead in Christ shall rise first"? Are we not rising from the grave at this point in time. If we are already in heaven how is it that we will raise. Bother when we die we go to the grave justr as Jesus did and when he come back we will rise from that grave to meet him in the clouds/glory of God on the day he returns. Got to go right now but I will be giving some more scripture us in the grave. The word "grave" is actually not in the NKJV but here is what Christ say about thoses who have died. " (Mat 8:22) He said to them, "Make room, for the girl is not dead, but sleeping." And they ridiculed Him. (Mat 22:31) 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB' ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." In this verse God doesn't say that I am the God of Abraham who is dead, He says I am the God of Abraham and also says that God is not the God of the dead. So is Abraham still alive in God? Yes. (Mar 5:35) When He came in, He said to them, "Why make this commotion and weep? The child is not dead, but sleeping." (Mar 9:26) For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. (Mar 12:25) But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB' ? (Mar 12:26) He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken." (Luk 7:12) So he who was dead sat up and began to speak. And He presented him to his mother. (Luk 8:49) Now all wept and mourned for her; but He said, "Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping." (Luk 8:52) And they ridiculed Him, knowing that she was dead. (Luk 16:31) But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; (Joh 5:21) Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. (Joh 5:25) Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. (Joh 6:49) This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." (Joh 6:58)Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead. (Joh 11:14) Jesus said, "Take away the stone." Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, "Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days." (Joh 11:39) Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. (Joh 11:41) Then, six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus was who had been dead, whom He had raised from the dead. (Joh 12:1) Now a great many of the Jews knew that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead. (Joh 12:9) Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness. (Act 28:6) and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Well this should do it. When we die we are only sleeping according to Christ and are not dead. If you don,t get after all of these scriptures then you never will get it. You see brother I was not raised up in Christ by any denomination and there beliefs or disbeliefs. I get all of what I believe from scripture alone.

Still no scripture to back your statements up? You should remember that a Christian in right standing with God ALWAYS researches scripture to make sure that he/she is correct. As for me? I do heavy research in every scripture I quote and everything I say about the word of God. You said, " what is the dead in Christ ?" and the answer is 1 Th. 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." Read this verse carefully and you will see that it says nothing about going to heaven before Christ come to get us but it does say that the dead in Christ shall rise first. Christ is in us and we are in Christ. Hence when we die we are dieing while Christ is in us which make us DEAD IN CHRIST. You asked," is there anything showing dead in the grave for us?" Doesn't this verse "that the dead in Christ shall rise first"? Are we not rising from the grave at this point in time. If we are already in heaven how is it that we will raise. Bother when we die we go to the grave justr as Jesus did and when he come back we will rise from that grave to meet him in the clouds/glory of God on the day he returns. Got to go right now but I will be giving some more scripture us in the grave.

Show me some scripture that say "Steven went to heaven" We must remember that Jesus is our example and all that happened to him will happen to us which means that we will first decend into the lower reaches of the earth before we are raised from the grave. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "this day you shall be with me in paradise" now we all know that Jesus first decended and since the thief went with Christ that very death which is the day of His death, the thief went with Christ into Paradise. Desiring "to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: IS A LONG WAYS FROM BEING CLOTHED WITH OUR HEAVENLY CLOTHING. Well read this again What did Stephen see before being stoned ? - Jesus Was this not Jesus coming for him ? - sure Stephen was a educated man in the Gospel and asked Jesus to come and get him he knew his body was going to die. So the flesh died and Stephen moved out a live spirit and went to heaven and not to be naked he got an heavenly body. Why would you want to raise a dead body when you are already alive in heaven ? God has to speak a body back into existence so that ____________________________ ? what purpose ? If the body is going to be raised from the grave and then changed into a heavenly body anyway, why come back down here and be dead again and be resurrected from out of the ground, just get it while you are already up there. You said "Was this not Jesus coming for him ? - sure" and this statement is wrong. In the scriptures you are talking about Jesus isn't coming or going. The scripture says that Jesus "IS STANDING AT THE THRONE OF GOD". "Standing" is not a motion word. Again you said "Stephen was a educated man in the Gospel and asked Jesus to come and get him he knew his body was going to die". Where in the bible does it say that Jesus was asking Jesus for anything? Holy Moly if there is anybody who adds to what scripture really says it is you. Stephen never asks Jesus to come and get him at anytime. Nor does the bible ever say that Jesus came to get Stephen at any time. In fact nothing is spoken at all about where Stephen went after he died. Where are you getting this stuff? You asked a great question which gives doubt to this going to heaven the moment we die "Why would you want to raise a dead body when you are already alive in heaven?" No one including God would need to raise a dead body if that person was already living in heaven. But if one is still in the grave and not in heaven then God would need to speak that person out of the grave. Which God will do on the day of resurrection of the dead in Christ. Because no one is already in heaven. :clap:

Heaven which the adode of God would never need to be cleansed in any way. Being the place where God resides means that it is a Holy Place which in turn tells us that Heaven is and always was a sinless place with no corruption what so ever and no need to be cleansed. Otherwise God would be living in a corrupted place. The fact that Jesus emptied out Paradise of all who had died is not written anywhere in scripture which makes that whole concept a false teaching and not even worthy of any consideration. The fact of that matter is that Hell has now and always had three sections with three different name which mean three different things and Paradise has always been a seperate place from hell. The three names are Hades, Gaheena and Tartorus (Look it up if you don't believe me). Hades means "The place of departed Souls" Gaheena means "The place of Torment, and Tartorus (The word Tartorus is not written in the bible) is the Prison spoken of in the books of Peter where the Angels in chains are reserved until Judgment is made on them. IE The Great White Throne Judgement. With all of that in mind let me ask you this. Since the thief went to Paradise with Jesus was he saved or unsaved? Were the Diciples Saved or Unsaved?

He is raising their bodies from the grave, not their spirits. So their graves are not empty as their bodies remain in the ground. Where did you get the idea that the graves are empty if everyone goes to heaven when they die? Jesus, in dealing with the Saducees on the issue of the after life quotes from Exodus 3 where God told Moses "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He did not say, "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, meaning that God is the God of the living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive according to Jesus, proving that their spirits were not in the grave but were alive and animate. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and talked with Jesus on the Mount of Tranfiguration, meaning that they were still alive and their spirits were not in their graves. Show me some scripture to back that idea up. Show me some scripture that says that the body goes to heaven and the spirit stays in the grave. Because scripture tells us that the body turns back to the dust where it came from and the spirit goes back to God where it came from. Which is the opposite of what you are saying. Body stays in grave as stated spirit goes to heaven and they are reunited with a immortal incorruptible body at the harpazo 1 Thessalonians 4 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Corinthians 15 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. The body never gets reunited with the soul because no flesh shall inter into heaven. We will be like Jesus was with a glorified body that could eat fish and walk through walls. His body had enough substance to touch but it wasn't flesh.

Show me some scripture that say "Steven went to heaven" We must remember that Jesus is our example and all that happened to him will happen to us which means that we will first decend into the lower reaches of the earth before we are raised from the grave. What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "this day you shall be with me in paradise" now we all know that Jesus first decended and since the thief went with Christ that very death which is the day of His death, the thief went with Christ into Paradise. Desiring "to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: IS A LONG WAYS FROM BEING CLOTHED WITH OUR HEAVENLY CLOTHING.

And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man. Why say? . I choose to believe that Time means nothing to the person who has passed on. Time is for living man, and like everything else, man can Fight over it... I have read the Parables of Lazarus and the rich man...and have read about a man who went to the 3rd Heaven...and I have read that to be in this body is to be away from the Lord. I have also read that every day we spend in this body it is wasting away! I have read such words as "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, " .......Yes, I have read and I have Faith, that as it turns out was a gift, because I did nothing to receive that gift through my actions. Will the Faith of what I believe cause one to lose their Salvation in Christ, if it takes 100 thousand years to take place, or if it happens in the moment of being set free from the early tent we live in. Yes, why say anything beyond your belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, belief that we will be with Him... Dennis No insult intended here but maybe you should check your faith because I am in the Lord and the Lord is in me. My flesh keeps me from being profected in Jesus but I am never away from the Lord And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man. Why say? . I choose to believe that Time means nothing to the person who has passed on. Time is for living man, and like everything else, man can Fight over it... I have read the Parables of Lazarus and the rich man...and have read about a man who went to the 3rd Heaven...and I have read that to be in this body is to be away from the Lord. I have also read that every day we spend in this body it is wasting away! I have read such words as "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, " .......Yes, I have read and I have Faith, that as it turns out was a gift, because I did nothing to receive that gift through my actions. Will the Faith of what I believe cause one to lose their Salvation in Christ, if it takes 100 thousand years to take place, or if it happens in the moment of being set free from the early tent we live in. Yes, why say anything beyond your belief in the Lord Jesus Christ, belief that we will be with Him... Dennis Personnally I am in Jesus and He is in me and I am never away from the Lord. My flesh keeps me from being perfected in the Lord but that will happen when I am raised from the grave or at the moment of death.

All through the New Testament the words "Endure to the end" is spoken and when we have endured to the end and died or Christ comes we will have accomplished that which is our goal. In the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man there is conversation that takes place but none of it is spoken by Lazorus only the rich man and Abraham. Why? Lazarus had died didn't he? And if he was dead and in heaven then why wasn't he awake and taking part in the conversation? Because he was sleeping in Christ in death. In John 11:11 Jesus says that Lazarus was sleeping. But in John 11:14 Jesus says that Lazarus is dead. Why? Because Lazarus was dead in Christ and when we die in Christ we are simply in a state of sleep until Jesus raises us from the grave which is what Jesus did with Lazarus and we all know that Lazarus was raised with his body intack and needing nourishment because Jesus commands that Lazarus be given food. But when we are raised from the grave we will be raised in the glorified body just as Jesus was which will get us into heaven because no flesh shall inter into heaven. "What does Paul mean by this passage when he concludes that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?" You have made a mistake in this question by leaveing out the rest of the verse. You only quoted half of the verse so I will show the whole verse. 2 Cor. 5:8 "We are confident, well pleased RATHER TO BE absent from the body and to be present with the Lord". In this verse there is no conclusion here at all. It is a statement of fact which is saying that we as believers are confident and well pleased that we would rather be absent from our bodies and to be present with the Lord. When we quote that verse and leave out the words "rather to be" it changes the verse into a false doctrine which is to say that when we die we will be in heaven in the presents of the Lord and this verse says nothing at all about going to heaven at the moment of death. We would all rather be in the presence of the Lord verses being in the flesh. But to say that this verse is telling us that we go to heaven as soon as we die is simply wrong. There is no scrptural proof that Paradise was emptied out and there is no scripture proof that we go to heaven as soon as we die. I believe that when we die it will be just like when we lay down to go to sleep ever night. I will die and go to sleep in the presence of the Lord and the next time I open my eyes it will be as if no time has past and an angel/reaper will be helping me out of the grave just as the word of God say I will be helped by a reaper/angel out of the grave. Personally I am aways in the presence of the Lord because I can feel His presence all around me at all times.

He is raising their bodies from the grave, not their spirits. So their graves are not empty as their bodies remain in the ground. Where did you get the idea that the graves are empty if everyone goes to heaven when they die? You are operating from the fallacy that earlier doctrines mean more accurate. There is a erroneous notion among some that the closer you get to the ancient apostles and to the early church, the closer you get to the original "correct" theology or doctrinal views that is simply not true. Heresies abounded in the early church and this is recorded among the early church historians. You really cannot turn to the early church fathers for correct doctrine, as they held to many heresies and persecuted the Jews as well. Jesus, in dealing with the Saducees on the issue of the after life quotes from Exodus 3 where God told Moses "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He did not say, "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, meaning that God is the God of the living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive according to Jesus, proving that their spirits were not in the grave but were alive and animate. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and talked with Jesus on the Mount of Tranfiguration, meaning that they were still alive and their spirits were not in their graves. Show me some scripture to back that idea up. Show me some scripture that says that the body goes to heaven and the spirit stays in the grave. Because scripture tells us that the body turns back to the dust where it came from and the spirit goes back to God where it came from. Which is the opposite of what you are saying.

Every Prophet and Preacher is a messenger of God as long as they are true believers.

Living eternal life without the presents of God around me.

And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man.

Salvation is not "all about the soul". Our bodies, souls, and spirits all need to be saved and sanctified because they have all been tainted by sin. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 The spirit can be saved: ....that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:5 The body must be saved: ...Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Ephesians 5:23 (See also, Romans 8:23, Philippians 3:21) The soul must be saved: But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.Hebrews 10:39 Salvation is triune, just as God is triune. To say that one facet of salvation is more important than another would be like saying that a certain member of the Godhead is more important than another. An interesting thing to note is that our present body, is as Paul puts it, "soulish", and that our ressurected self will be "spiritual" implying that while our present body is dominated by our soul, our ressurected body will be dominated by our spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (Gr. psuchetikon, or "soulish") body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (again, Gr. psuchetikon, or "soulish"); and afterward that which is spiritual. While we are alive and walking on this earth we have a soul and a spirit and a body. But according to scripture when we die the spirit "breath of life" goes vback to God where it came from and our bodies turn back to the dust from which it came from. So the only part of us that lives on forever is our Soul which is everything that we are. "An interesting thing to note is that our present body, is as Paul puts it, "soulish", and that our ressurected self will be "spiritual" implying that while our present body is dominated by our soul, our ressurected body will be dominated by our spirit." I never run down the road of "the bible implies this or the scripture leads us to believe this or the bible appears to say this or that" because that kind of quoting in my humble opionion is a very inacurate way to interpret the word of God and can lead to some very bad false doctrinal teaching. Besides having a spiritual body is also what the glorfied body is. But we will still be able to feel pleasure or pain depending on where go when we are judged. "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.Hebrews 10:39". Just as the scripture says "Salvation is all about the soul."

First of all I see that no one has been able to show any scripture that tells us that we will go to heaven as soon as we doie. "We are confident, [i say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". The words "Willing Rather" mean just what they say. Which is to say that we would be "willing rather" to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord and has nothing to do wth telling us that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" as so many miss quote and take out of context just as You have done. "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." This verse actually says that "those who sleep in Jesus" is present tence as in "those who sleep in Jesus as of the time of the writing of this scripture" which was some 64 years after the death of Christ. Which means that those who sleep in Christ whom Paul was speaking of had not gone o heaven but were still sleeping in Christ doing just as Christ had done which was to first decend. So to say that we go to heaven as soon as we die is at oods with this verse because we would no longer be sleeping in Jesus but would enjoying the pleasures of heaven. You should re-read what I said. I said that we don't go to heaven as soon as we die. I never said that we will never go to heaven. Please don't put into my mouth what I didn't say. " Paradise was only a temporary holding area for all those who followed after God from the beginning of time up till Jesus fulfilled His obedience on the cross." Please show me some scripture that says Paradise was closed down or emptied". Because there are none. When He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out andWhen He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out and"When He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out and lead them to heaven." Show me some scripture that says " Jesus lead all who were in Paradise back to heaven with him when he acended into heaven. Because Acts ch. 1 say that only Jesus acended into heaven when he went and there is no scripture that I could find that says any different.

Going to Heaven The early church did not believe in any way, shape, or form, the idea of going to heaven as soon as we die and if one would do some biblical research one would find that there is not one single scripture that speaks of going straight to heaven on the day we die and if the Bible doesn’t speak of it, then it is not. When we die we either go to the place of burning or we go to paradise and both of these realms exist in Hades. “We maintain that after life has passed away you still remain in existence and anticipate a Day of Judgment. (In the Judgment), according to your deserts, (deeds) you are assigned to misery or to bliss. Either way, it will be forever. To be capable of this, your former substance must return to you the matter (body) and memory of the very same human being. For if you were not endowed with that sensitive bodily organization, you could fell neither good nor evil. And there would be no grounds for judgment without the presentation of the very person to whom the sufferings of judgment were due. Origen. Another gifted Christian writer was considered to be one of the greatest Christian theologians of his time and before. His name was Origen and he was born in 185 or 186 A.D. Origen was not quit seventeen when a Christian persecution was begun by the Roman Emperor Septimius Severus. Origen lived during a turbulent time when there were periodic Christian persecutions during the reigns of Emperors Severus, Maximin, and Decius. Also during his time the Roman Empire was threatened with destabilization because of the barbarian invasions that were sweeping across Europe. He was born into great Christian persecution and he died sometime in 254 or 255, while still living under great Christian persecution. In Origin’s time, Christianity had not yet established a system of theological beliefs as a basis of orthodoxy so consequently there were several different sects and each one claiming to posses the truth about the Christian faith. The largest of the different sects were the Gnostics and it is the Gnostic doctrine that Origen fought hardest against. Since there were no non-Gnostic theological systems that were as successful as the Gnostics in his day, Origen formulated one. Because of Origin’s his works and the works of many other wise theologians like him, much of what we believe today is a direct result of their efforts to keep paganism and false doctrinal teachings out of the body of Christ. However after these dedicated men had all passed away and the church became organized, there were several false doctrinal beliefs and many pagan rituals that crept back into the church. Men like Origen were instrumental in the fight against pagan worship and left field concepts like Gnosticism. Like several other early church theologians Origen also wrote “Ignorant men (uneducated believers) and unbelievers suppose that our flesh is destroyed after death to such a degree that it retains no relic at all of its former substance. However, we who believe in its resurrection understand that only a change has been produced by death…. It will again be raised from the earth. And after this it will advance to the glory of a spiritual body according to the merits of the indwelling soul. We are to believe, then, that all this bodily substance will be brought into this condition. This will be when all things will be re-established into a state of unity and when God will be “all in all” And this result must be understood as being brought about, not suddenly but slowly [in process of time] and gradually.” It also seems that Origen contradicts himself. “The apostolic teaching is that there is to be a time of resurrection from the dead, when the body which now is sown in corruption will rise in incorruption; and when that which “is sown in dishonor will rise in glory.” We know now that the flesh will not rise from the grave just as it went into the grave and even if it did, changing into the glorified body on the way up to heaven accomplishes the same task. Anyway believing that the flesh will rise from the grave just before it changes into the glorified body is not eternally significant. This belief shows that the believers of the early church not only did not believe in the ascension to heaven at the moment of death but also believed we went into the earth and stayed there until we will be called by Jesus to come forth from the grave. Again the early church got it right because there is not one single word in the bible that tells us that we will go to heaven immediately after the moment of death. “We therefore believe that the body also rose. For even if it decays, it is not in the least bit destroyed. That is because the earth that receives its remains, will preserve them. They become like seed and are wrapped up in the richer part of the earth. Thereafter, they spring up and bloom. However, the body is not raised the same thing as it is now. Rather, it becomes pure and no longer corruptible. And to everybody, its own proper soul will be given again. But the unrighteous will receive their bodies unchanged. They will not be freed from suffering and disease. They will be unglorified, with all the ills in which they died. Hippolytus. Today we know that when we die our body turns back into the dust from which God made it from and our spirit or breath of life which animates the body goes back to God where it came from. But what of the soul? What happens to the soul when our body is no longer function able and the spirit of life leaves the body? First of all the bible doesn’t speak one single word about what happens to the soul when we die and yet salvation is all about the soul. The soul is what will rise from the dead and stand before the throne of God as a multitude that no man can count and the living will change from the flesh to the glorified body and will also stand among the multitude. Hippolytus was correct when he stated that the unrighteous will still suffer all of the pain and disease which the body suffers while still in the flesh but after one has been judged to be unworthy for the glorified body it will be the soul that suffers these things because the body dies daily and will not last forever but the soul can and will suffer for eternity. The Parable of the rich man and Lazarus is proof of that concept. Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty?

This is a vain attempt to try to confuse what I said. It's childish You have missed the point I was making. You want a Christian candidate. So, you got one that calls himself a Christian. Do you believe that God is sovereign or not? The American people got what they voted for. THAT is my point. Listen, God is not playing word games. You have a choice between further judgement (another 4 yrs with Obama) or extended mercy and repentance if God allows Romney to be voted in. Do you not know that America is under judgement? America is NOT a Christian nation and the word Ichabod has already been inscribed on the doorframes of many churches. Maybe you should quit your sarcasm and get serious because things are VERY serious...both in the world and certainly in the States You have the candidates that you have because GOD has allowed them to run and now you have a CHOICE BETWEEN TWO Not voting is the least intelligent option on the table. If that is your choice, then you are not on God's side. You do not respect your country and you will let it fall even further. It's YOUR choice. God is not offering you another choice. God is not going to put a bandaid on this one. No amount of coffee smelling is going to work. It is way past the time for coffee smelling. Bottom line for me: you are free to vote any way you want but there are CONSEQUENCES for any choice you make your assertions that I have no Biblical basis for my comments shows your actual lack of knowledge concerning that subject either way, I'm not responding to your out of context comments and assertions...I do not have to defend my posts with regards to choice as you now have ample scripture references to sort through and perhaps, after studying the subject, you can find some of your own as there are plenty more Thanks This is a vain attempt to try to confuse what I said. It's childish You have missed the point I was making. You want a Christian candidate. So, you got one that calls himself a Christian. Do you believe that God is sovereign or not? The American people got what they voted for. THAT is my point. Listen, God is not playing word games. You have a choice between further judgement (another 4 yrs with Obama) or extended mercy and repentance if God allows Romney to be voted in. Do you not know that America is under judgement? America is NOT a Christian nation and the word Ichabod has already been inscribed on the doorframes of many churches. Maybe you should quit your sarcasm and get serious because things are VERY serious...both in the world and certainly in the States You have the candidates that you have because GOD has allowed them to run and now you have a CHOICE BETWEEN TWO Not voting is the least intelligent option on the table. If that is your choice, then you are not on God's side. You do not respect your country and you will let it fall even further. It's YOUR choice. God is not offering you another choice. God is not going to put a bandaid on this one. No amount of coffee smelling is going to work. It is way past the time for coffee smelling. Bottom line for me: you are free to vote any way you want but there are CONSEQUENCES for any choice you make your assertions that I have no Biblical basis for my comments shows your actual lack of knowledge concerning that subject either way, I'm not responding to your out of context comments and assertions...I do not have to defend my posts with regards to choice as you now have ample scripture references to sort through and perhaps, after studying the subject, you can find some of your own as there are plenty more Thanks OK AS YOU WISH

LOL! This is just such a straw man that it is a wonder it does not spontaneously ignite. Maybe I should sit back from my pc before it goes poof. What you are doing, is judging me by the way you believe; NOT what the Bible actually states regarding God and His interaction with this world. I call it rhetoric because it is rhetoric. It is YOUR statements I am calling rhetoric. You are either misunderstanding my posts or you are deliberately trying to change the meaning of my posts. God does not take sides. God does NOT take your side or the side of anyone. If 100 people calling themself Christian believe that God takes each and every one of their sides, that would mean that God has to change His own person for every person because 100 people are not going to agree. Why are they not going to agree? They would not agree because their minds would be clouded in judgement and discernment if they believed that God is on their side.. A person must choose God's side...this is a basic understanding of scripture. You will not find ANY verse or passage that says that God is on YOUR side because He is not on your side. EVERY SINGLE PROMISE OF GOD TO HIS CHILDREN IS CONTINGENT UPON THEIR OBEDIENCE TO HIM. Pay attention to the following verses. Joshua asks the angel of the Lord whose side he is on. The angel says NEITHER SIDE 13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?” 14“Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lordd have for his servant?” 15The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so. God CHOSE Abraham...Abraham did not choose God, but Abraham had to CHOOSE to follow God and obey Him. God CHOSE the Israelites...but they had to CHOSE to obey Him and when they did not obey Him, they had terrible consequences God ONLY enacted on the behalf of His CHOSEN people when they chose to OBEY him God says over and over in His word that His promises to us are contingent upon us CHOOSING to obey Him. Christ does not forsake us IF WE ALREADY BELIEVE IN HIM AND FOLLOW HIM. The promises of God ARE FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO OBEY HIM. 16 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. 17But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. 19This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live20and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Deut 30 Here is an article on the fact that we must choose God:http://www.crosswalk...e-11604193.html I have posted God's word....you just don't appear to recognize it. I am glad you have finally started using scriprture but using trickery with scripture is not recommended. It was the ANGEL OF THE LORD WHO SAID "NO" TO THE QUESTION NOT THE LORD HIMSELF. Now in verse 5:14 the word "NO" (NKJ) but could mean the same thing. However the reseach that I did on the word "no" in that verse did not point me toward the word "neither" so to say the word "no" is the same as the word "neither" is nothing more then an assumption on the part of the authers of your particular bible. As best as I can tell the angel is answering that last question with the word no because in verse 6-2 the Lord is not for the adversaries but is standing on the side of Joshua. Verse six proves you wrong. Not by my word but by the word of the Lord. :hmmm: :hmmm: So if we take into consideration the next few verses we will find that God speaks to Joshua and tells him ""See! I have given Jericho into your hand, it king and the mighty men of valor its king," Joshua 6-2. So you see God did take the side of Joshua after all Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, "Are You for us or for our adversaries?" Jos 5:14 So He said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, "What does my Lord say to His servant?" Jos 5:15 Then the Commander of the LORD's army said to Joshua, "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so. Jos 6:1 Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in. Jos 6:2 And the LORD said to Joshua, "See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king,"

Here we go again. First of all there will be a period of great tribulation and the antichrist will be in control of that persecution of the saints. The second fact is that the Christians are waiting for a Jewish Jesus to return to earth, the MUSLIMS ARE WAITING FOR A JEWISH JESUS TO RETURN TO EARTH, and the non-messianic JEWS are waiting on a Jewish Jesus to appear here on earth for the first time. So Bold Believer you can run that false, Preterist teaching all day long but you will never convince 1 billion+ Muslims that that thier Jewish Jesus has already been and gone. Nor will you ever convince the Jews of that same pagan belief. Second Thess. say that the antichrist will sit IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD AND CLAIM THAT HE IS GOD. THAT FACT HAS NEVER HAPPENED YET. During the Roman siege of Jerusalim the Jews fought over control of the Temple mount and there were 3 factions who were fighting for that control which made it impossible for anyone to go into the temple of God, and claim to be God just as it says is going to happen in 2 Thess. Another thing all of you all preterists fail to see is when scripture say that the time of oppression will be so bad that it will be worse than any other tribulation before it OR AFTER IT. Well guess what? There were only about 600,000 Jews in the city during the time of the siege and not all of them were killed by the Romans. Many starved or turned to cannibalism and others were killed for trying to escape the city by other Jews and those who did escape died because when the Romans gave them some food their bellies swelled up and burst because they were starving or they were killed during the battles over control of the Temple Mount etc. Now lets compare what happened in 70 A.D. to what happened to the Jews during world war 2. NOT 600,000 BUT 6,000.000.000 MILLION JEWS WERE SLAUGHTERED DURING WORLD WAR 2. LETS CONSIDER WARSAW POLAND WHERE MORE JEWS WERE STARVED AND SYSTEMATICALLY TORTURED, BEATEN, RAPED AND KILLED OVER A PERIOD OF SEVERAL YEARS THEN WERE IN JERUSALIM IN 70 A.D. OR HOW ABOUT THE GAS CHAMBERS AND DEATH CAMPS, FORCED LABOR CAMPS AND NAZI EXPERIMENTS. THEIR SKINS WERE USED FOR UPOLSTERY ON COUCHES AND LAMP SHADES. AND LETS NOT FORGET ABOUT THE ROMAN PERSECUTIONS OF THE EARLY CHURCH. THAT WENT ON FOR NEARLY 300 YEARS. NOPE BOLD BABY. HISTORY DOES NOT LINE UP WITH THAT OLD FALSE DOCTRINAL BELIEF OF PRETERISM. YOU SHOULD READ UP ON JOSEPHUS THE JEWISH HISTORIAN WHO WAS THERE DURING THE SIEGE OF JERUSALIM AND WAS THE ONLY ONE LEFT ALIVE AT MUSADA WHICH WAS THE LAST JEWISH STRONG HOLD AFTER THE CITY FELL. TO BAD YOU CAN'T LINE YOUR TEACHING UP WITH SCRIPTURE OR RECORDED HISTORY.

This is a very over simplistic view IMO. You should read what happened when Israel just had to have a king. You have two choices and believe it or not, God knows about both of them Reasoning that neither candidate is YOUR choice based on your understanding of the principals at work here, will guarantee worse than has already been experienced Asking for support from the Bible regarding choosing a candidate is mute. There were no elections in the Bible period. People also did not drive cars or shop at Wallie's either. Do you drive a car and shop outside the home? A person needs to have a grasp of the entire history of God's soverign reign as well as the liberty we have to CHOOSE Choice, IS a Biblical principal Kindly do not read more into my post than I have put in. In other words, don't assume I do not put God first It is actually Jehovah This is not a good argument for your opinion either. God is not YOUR God. That is, you cannot argue from the point of view that you must be right because YOU believe in Him in a certain way that those who take a different position than you do, do not, whereby you would be right by default. That, would not ever be true because everyone would argue that way and then our beliefs would be torn and scattered like leaves in the wind and there would be no agreement I am sure you can see the double irony in that? God is not on anyone's side. We must CHOOSE His side. Choice is the operative word here Thanks for the spell check. You are out in Left field once again. God Jahovah is my God because I have accepted him as my God. Don't you ever read scripture? God says in several places that "I will be their God and they will be my people". Hence I am one of his people and he is my God. :hmmm: God chose me to be one of his people so he could be my God. I have read the word of God from front to back some 9 times and the reason I take such a long time to read the bible is because I do research as I am reading. I never argue from the point of view that I am right. I argue from God's point of view and he is always right. There is only one God and his name is Jahovah and there is no other and there is only one way to believe in God which is the way he has instructed us to believe in Him. Which is with blind obedience and unwavering faith according to his word. I have done many bad things in my life but no more because I have nothing to go back to and not one person alive today can say anything that will shake my beliefs in MY GOD. Please understand that I have not read into your words. I have simply taken them at face value.

I did say I was being mean and I guess I was being meaner than I thought I was if you have dyslexia. I am sorry...I do not want to hurt someone because I disagree with them Have you tried turning on the spelling correction feature? I often type too fast and reverse letters and have corrections to make If you make a spelling error, the word will be underlined in red and then you just left click and the pop up will offer you one or several possible words spelled correctly to correct the wrong spelling I still disagree with your views though. I used to have spell check set up and there was a symbol to click on but I can't find one now. It has been a while since I have been here.