Eddie B

Looks like God offers free salvation and we either accept it or reject it. Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Isa 55:2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Amen, I secound that. Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hello again Butero, I think it means exactly what it says, if you could abide in Christ continulisly, none stop, you would not sin. But the fact remains you cant abide as such and so you sin. I think hes saying that to habitual sin, and take such a thing lightly, you would not be a Christian. 1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Just curious what you think these scriptures mean? Thanks for taking the time to respond. When you made the statement, "But if your implying, and I'm not saying you are, a Christian is one who does not sin, I would disagree on that point," the only thing I had done was referenced that scripture in 1 John 3:6. It was John under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost that stated "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not see him, neither known him." In reality, it was God making the statement, not me, so when you made your comment, and you never gave any explaination for it, it appeared you were disagreeing with God. At least now I know where you are coming from. I was just making the point that the Spirit that lives within will only lead us to live a righteous lifestyle, so when we walk in the Spirit, we don't sin. It is only when we fail to follow his leading, we get into trouble. There is a gospel song by David Patillo that says, "I'll Follow Jesus, he knows the way home." When we follow Jesus, we know we are on the narrow path that leads to life, but when we fail to follow in his footsteps, we often times wind up on the wide path that leads to destruction. I'm afraid too many Christians are failing to walk in the Spririt, and not following Jesus, but instead, following the broad road, and will have a rude awakening at the end of the journey. I agree, abiding to me is walking in the Spirit, and thats where i want to be as a Christian. And I also would agree that many Christians are not walking in the Spirit, I was one of them and can be again if I dont cherish that fellowship we experience with our heavenly father when we walk in the Spirit.

Hello again Butero, I think it means exactly what it says, if you could abide in Christ continulisly, none stop, you would not sin. But the fact remains you cant abide as such and so you sin. I think hes saying that to habitual sin, and take such a thing lightly, you would not be a Christian. 1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Just curious what you think these scriptures mean?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known: Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. The question is Eddie, who is under the law? The answer is, those not walking in the Spirit. It is possible to have a Christian go back under the law by refusing to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:16-25 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murderes, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. The law was given for law breakers. When we fail to walk according to the leading of the Spirit, we place ourselves back up under the law. This is directly opposite from the false teaching of much of the church that claims that those who put themselves under the law are those trying to live right, believing they can lose their salvation. The truth is that if we don't live right, we do lose our salvation, as is plainly seen here. There are numerous Christians that fail to walk in the Spirit and commit sins like idolarty, witchcraft, hatred, murders, drunkeness, etc. According to scripture, they shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Those walking in the Spirit don't need the law as a schoolmaster, because the Spirit will lead them in living a righteous life and bearing fruit. They will have love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance, because the Spirit living within has those characteristics. Sin according to scripture is the transgression of the law, and those walking in the Spirit don't sin. 1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whoseoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Within our own selves there is nothing good, but the Spirit that lives on the inside is perfect, and so we are taught to follow his leading. Hi Butero, I would agree with most of what you said. My answer was first ment to cause one to look within the heart to see def of sin is, we our born in sin, that makes us sinners, thats why we break the laws of God. And secound to know your right with God comes from having a personal relationship with him through the Holy Spirit in obedience to Gods word. But if your impliying, and iam not saying you are, a christian is one who does not sin I would disagree on that point.

Hello' ARVY and YOD, Your right the post i did on THE "LAW" WAS NOT GIVEN TO THE GENTILES was out of context and can be misleading,sorry about that. That post was based on several previous posts i made.Heres one of them that might clear up my position on the sabbath day. Iam just saying i dont focus on trying to obey any law, except the law of Christ.Someone may focus on the 7 day sabbath that on Exodus 20, I focus on the sabbath that is fulfilled in Christ (Heb. 4.) A previous post i did: As I said in certain situations i would not have a problem celebrating the passover in order to reach the Jew or to reconcile a brother to Christ.But i whould not practice the Sabbath as a N.T. Christian because the N.T. doesn't tell me to do so in the same way the O.T. Jew was to do, because we have a new covenant thats better then the old one according to Hebrews because of Christ. Its true Christ practice the Sabbath, because He was a JEW under the Law who whould fulfill the Law for you and me. The ? in my mind is how does the Christian not only obey the Sabbath, the 4 commandment, but all of the 10 commandments today? According to the N.T. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. So then how is the Law fulfilled in us?By Christ living in us and through us by the power of the Holy Spirit. The N.T. saint is not only not to commit murder, but he is not to even hate someone, a much higher and harder law to obey if it were possible for me to obey, which i cant. So then how is the Christian today according to the N. T. going to fulfill obeying the Sabbath.Again it whould be through what Christ accomplished on the cross. The Sabbath in the O.T. was to be a day of rest from work, and communion with God.Thats a blessing from God to His people. We as Christians because of Gods grace enter into a better Sabbath(rest)according to Heb. 4. As God rested on the seventh day from His work of creation, the true believer today rests in the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ. In order to enter into God's rest, a person must quietly accept God's work. He must cease from his own work. Salvation is God's gift. Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Hears something that i keep on hand that helps me see the legalist attitude i can have at times and how not to have such an attitude. Hope the way i laid it out isnt to confusing. Area Under Law 1 View of the law A set of detailed obligations that I must keep Rigid application of case law Under Grace The underlying principles of the law describe the ultimate goal toward which God is moving me: a loving life-style Under Law 2 View of self I am regenerate, and therefore I am able to keep the law The law helps me live for God. Under Grace I am regenerate, but I still can't keep the law, because of my "outer man." By relying on the Spirit, not the letter, I can gradually change Under Law 3 View of the Holy Spirit Little practical understanding of the Spirit's ministries Under Grace Depends on the Holy Spirit for all power, Motivation, and direction Under Law 4 The "Key" to spiritual growth Self discipline or Special experiences Under Grace Knows self-effort is futile Romans 7:18 Looks to a process, not to quick-fix experiences Under Law 5 Approach to Scripture Relies on an inconsistent hermeneutic Unable to harmonize Jesus and the epistles Under Grace Is consistent, and is able to harmonize the gospels and epistles Under Law 6 Mental focus My duty: to do what the rules require Under Grace Identification with Christ\ Personal relationship with God Loving others as a means of growth Under Law 7 Reaction to failure Surprised and distressed Rationalizations, minimization, blame-shifting and self-recrimmination Vows to do better Under Grace Not surprised Confident of God's acceptance Return to active dependence Under Law 8 Reaction to success Proud and intolerant of others Under Grace Humbly grateful Still able to empathize with those who fall Sees continued need for growth Under Law 9 Eventual result External conformity, but increasing internal defeat and hypocrisy Growing cynicism and despair OR: Self-righteous externalistic comparisons--self deception Under Grace .Gradual transformation into a person with a measure of victory over sin and a spiritual mind-set A more loving person

Theirs no simple or quick answer to what the bible says about the Holy Spirit.It takes time to learn how to walk in the Spirit. But in anwser to your ? in regards to how to know when your doing the right or wrong thing, the Holy Spirit will always agree to what the word of God says.This requires us to learn God word on a regular baisis. But about your brother, you made the right decision based on what you said about your brother.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known: Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

I agree just hearing is not true faith. In justification: Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. In santification: Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

THE "LAW" WAS NOT GIVEN TO THE GENTILES. "When the Gentiles, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves." Ro 2:14. The "Law" was given to Israel exclusively. For illustration take the "Law of the Sabbath." It was not given to the Gentiles. It was given as the "SIGN" of the "Mosaic Covenant." Ex 31:13; Eze 20:12,19-21. The "Sabbath Day" belongs to the Jews alone and is not binding on the Gentiles (the World), or on the Church (Christians). Nowhere in the Bible do we find God finding fault with any nation or people, except the Jews, for not observing the Sabbath. As a Jewish ordinance it has never been changed, or transferred to any other day of the week, or to any other people. It was foretold in Ho 2:11; 3:4-5, it would be. It is to be resumed when the Jews are nationally restored to their own land. Isa 66:23; Eze 44:24; 46:1-3.

Are you trying to please God by your own good works or are you trusting in Christ and then living to please God? Do you practice diligent service, discipline, and obedience in hope of reward? Or do you confess, submit, and commit, yourself to Christ's control? Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Shalom Eddie, You are confusing the LAW and the Covenants with the Sabbath. The Sabbath pre-dates the Law. G-d never rescinded the Sabbath. The Sabbath remains. Observe or not, decide for yourself. The Scriptures pertaining to sin and death have to do with salvation. If you've read this thread, you'll see that Sabbath has nothing to do with salvation, so that argument is moot. How we obey the 10 Commandments is by the grace of G-d. The bottom line is, we are commanded to obey them. ALL of them. You argue against a Sabbath, but the Bible says it remains as the 7th day. I choose the Bible. BTW, the topic of this thread is which DAY the Sabbath is, not whether there is one and not debating law vs grace. Let's not waste any more of each other's time going down rabbit trails or going in circles. Hi Vickilynn, Last comment for me as well on this topic.I respectfully disagree with you. You didnt post all that I said in my post. Your answers above avoided what I was saying or you dont understand what I said. Thats ok, we just dont see it the same way. Which day is the Sabbath for the Christian, I did anwser it. According to the N.T. covenant there is NO DAY to practice the Sabbath, it is fulfilled in Christ for the N.T. Christian (Heb. 4).The O.T. covenants to the Jews is between Jeovah God and the Jews.

Shalom JD, Amen, we LOVE our Sabbath observances at home! The kids and the hubby look forward to it all week and it is very special. We try to have guests over as well. Even the 7-year old knows why we observe and that is to honor Jesus and His Word. We also go to church on Sunday and that makes it awesome! Sabbath on Friday night / Saturday and then church on Sunday. Hi Vickilynn, In the way you just stated you observe the sabbath as a Christian I whould not have a problem agreeing with its ok to do.And I whould also be able to do it myself as a Christian because I have done it once in a previous Church I attended. We sported a Jewish Missionary from N.Y. City who ministered to the Jewish people in that area and he preached one night at at our Church and we celebrated the passover together as he explained it. And if a Jew asked me to celebrate the passover with him I whould in order to be a good testimony to him.But I just don't see the need to practice on a regular basis as a N.T. Christian. I have learned something today from this post, don't jump to conclusions about where you might think some one is at theologically till you know them better. Shalom Eddie, Thank you for your post and for the reminder. So many of us don't REALLY read what others are posting, we just jump in with both feet and think we know what they're saying! And I understand about you not seeing a need to practice it regularly and that's fine. If it is something that the L-rd wants you to start practicing, HE will quicken it to your heart. But, perhaps this thread is serving to help do that? You see, The Sabbath IS G-d's Word. Personally, I think all Christians should because it glorifies Jesus, honors Him, honors G-d's Word and brings us deeper understanding of the Word and our G-d. But, I do not believe it is sin not to. I just know that since it is G-d's Word and it glorifies HIM, it is a good thing, and should be desired to be practiced by those who truly love G-d and wish to honor Him and His Word. Anyway, that's between the L-rd and you, no one is to judge you whether you do or not, that is what the Scriptures say. Hi Vickilynn, As I said in certain situations i would not have a problem celebrating the passover in order to reach the Jew or to reconcile a brother to Christ.But i whould not practice the Sabbath as a N.T. Christian because the N.T. doesn't tell me to do so in the same way the O.T. Jew was to do, because we have a new covenant thats better then the old one according to Hebrews because of Christ. Its true Christ practice the Sabbath, because He was a JEW under the Law who whould fulfill the Law for you and me. The ? in my mind is how does the Christian not only obey the Sabbath, the 4 commandment, but all of the 10 commandments today? According to the N.T. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. So then how is the Law fulfilled in us?By Christ living in us and through us by the power of the Holy Spirit. The N.T. saint is not only not to commit murder, but he is not to even hate someone, a much higher and harder law to obey if it were possible for me to obey, which i cant. So then how is the Christian today according to the N. T. going to fulfill obeying the Sabbath.Again it whould be through what Christ accomplished on the cross. The Sabbath in the O.T. was to be a day of rest from work, and communion with God.Thats a blessing from God to His people. We as Christians because of Gods grace enter into a better Sabbath(rest)according to Heb. 4. As God rested on the seventh day from His work of creation, the true believer today rests in the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ. In order to enter into God's rest, a person must quietly accept God's work. He must cease from his own work. Salvation is God's gift. Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Hello, Just thought i would add my 2 cents for what it's worth, hope you don't mind? When I was saved by Christ I became perfect in Christs righteousness by faith, when I sin(lack of faith in truth) i'm not less perfect I just i'm not in communion with Christ(growing by faith in maturing, or being more like Him) so i must confess and repent to get back in communion with Him(thats when i'm maturing by faith, co-crucifiction,co-burial-co-death,co-resurrection, learning to live the life of Christ by faith in dependence upon the Holy Spirit to enlighten and inable me to do so.

Shalom JD, Amen, we LOVE our Sabbath observances at home! The kids and the hubby look forward to it all week and it is very special. We try to have guests over as well. Even the 7-year old knows why we observe and that is to honor Jesus and His Word. We also go to church on Sunday and that makes it awesome! Sabbath on Friday night / Saturday and then church on Sunday. Hi Vickilynn, In the way you just stated you observe the sabbath as a Christian I whould not have a problem agreeing with its ok to do.And I whould also be able to do it myself as a Christian because I have done it once in a previous Church I attended. We sported a Jewish Missionary from N.Y. City who ministered to the Jewish people in that area and he preached one night at at our Church and we celebrated the passover together as he explained it. And if a Jew asked me to celebrate the passover with him I whould in order to be a good testimony to him.But I just don't see the need to practice on a regular basis as a N.T. Christian. I have learned something today from this post, don't jump to conclusions about where you might think some one is at theologically till you know them better.

Hi Vickilynn, I was just anwsering your comments the best way I could. I believe that their are certain promises given to Israel only, and certain promises given only to the N.T. Church. But in regards to the Sabbath. In their writings to the churches, the Apostles only mentioned the sabbath three times. (1) The sabbath is a symbol of salvation rest in Christ (Heb. 4). (2) The N.T. believer is not bound to keep the sabbath (Col 2:9-17). (3) The N.T. believer has liberty in the matter of holy days (Ro 14:1-23).

Shalom Eddie, I know you are new here, but you've made a flase assumption and false judgment. Please don't do that. You don't know me and you certainly aren't equipped to judge whether I'm upset or not. Please don't presume to tell me how I'm feeling, it is not a very Christian thing to do. You CAN ask if you are interested, but don't assume. For the record, I'm not upset at all. At least I wasn't until you made that false assumption and accusation without knowing me at all. Hi Vickilynn, Sorry about that, i stand corrected.

Hi Vickilynn, Looks like your a little upset, sorry to see that. Where you are at in you theology theirs no simply answer to what you believe the bible to say.But when you say Church, remember theirs a false Chrisianity in the world(of which i believe your speaking of and then theirs the true elect of God)remember Yeshua said in his parables that in the Church age we whould see this happen.The New covenant (the fulfiling of the Law in Yeshua) and His teachings, fulfill and defines what pertains to His Old covenant.I hope this helps a little bit.I love Jews because if for no other reason my savior is a Jew.And the Church i was part of in the past we had two jewish ladies in our church who were a part of Jews for Jesus and they whould once a mounth celebreate the passover(and if you wanted to be a part of it you could, (but it was meant to reach Jewish people) showing how Jesus was in all that symbolisim that has been fulfilled in Him. Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Why, then, did Jesus keep the Sabbath? He kept the sabbath for the same reason He kept all the other Mosaic laws. He also observed the feasts. Jesus did these things because He was born a Jew, born under the law, that He might fulfill it and redeem His people from its penalty and bondage (Ga 4:4; Ro 9:5)

I do not believe"sinless perfection," as you put it, is what the Scriptures are stating. We will always struggle with sin, and we will often fail. The question is: what do you believe the Scriptures to mean by "perfection?" Ga 5:24 - And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Do you believe your flesh to be crucified with Christ? What does that mean to your life? Hello, Just thought i would add my 2 cents for what it's worth, hope you don't mind? When I was saved by Christ I became perfect in Christs righteousness by faith, when I sin(lack of faith in truth) i'm not less perfect I just i'm not in communion with Christ(growing by faith in maturing, or being more like Him) so i must confess and repent to get back in communion with Him(thats when i'm maturing by faith, co-crucifiction,co-burial-co-death,co-resurrection, learning to live the life of Christ by faith in dependence upon the Holy Spirit to enlighten and inable me to do so.

Hi tsth, For a Christian? Absolutely! All you have to do is read it and the Holy Spirt(if you have the Holy Spirit) will convict you to repent, whether you choose to do so by faith is another matter.

Hi firehill, Can a Christian try to rationalize sin away by thinking irrationaly,yes. But can a Christian actually rationalize away their sin i would say no, not without consequences. God sees this sin in our lives clearly and will in some way seek to correct our irrational thinking in order to bring us back into fellowship with him because He loves us. But it is also possible to willfuly ignor Gods heeding and defile our conscience and then if we continue in sin to sear our conscience with serious consequences.

I dont know if they can be abused, i guess they can, but i think they can be unintentionally done in the flesh. Lets say i think i have the gift of teaching, so i start to teach a S.S. class. Only i dont have the gift of teaching but i'm able to teach because i have a degree in teaching. Or i think God wants me to teach but i'm not filled with the Spirit.In this sense maybe the gift is being abused. But if i am aware that i must first be filled with the Spirit, (that is i'm not grieving or quenching the Spirit and i'm walking in the Spirit) then i will be bearing the fruit of the Spirit then the Spirit will cause me to know if i even have the gift of teaching and He will inable me to be able to teach.

Gods work in us through Christ by the Holy Spirit is a life of endurance, as it was for Christ it is for us. Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.