whirlwind

What a terrific post........"as it is written. Amen !" .........Whirlwind

Question is, how did you reach that conclusion? Romans 11 is not talking about God's wrath at all! It is talking about the fulness of TIME for the Gentiles, not the fulness of their salvation. Their "time" began in 636 when they took over Jerusalem. Their "fulness" comes to an end when Christ arrives at His 2nd Advent. They are what the "Parable of the Fig Tree" is about....the bad figs! .......Whirlwind

Thank you for that informative post. When the scripture says...."till the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"does that mean, as I used to think, until all the Gentiles that can be saved are saved, or...is what you are saying above - until it's time for the Gentiles to meet God's wrath? I, just recently, find that I believe it means the later....their time is drawing to a close and they will no more run over Jerusalem. Isn't it funny how you can look at the same scripture and all of the sudden see something so very different than before? ..........Whirlwind When you look at Romans 11:12, you see the word fullness used in relation to the Jews Romans 11:12 But if their slipping away is the riches of the world, and their default is the riches of the nations, how much more their fullness? The contrast shows them slipping away, and the fullness is them being saved. Paul uses that word in relation to the Gentiles in 11:25 Romans 11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in. The word

Thank you for that informative post. When the scripture says...."till the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"does that mean, as I used to think, until all the Gentiles that can be saved are saved, or...is what you are saying above - until it's time for the Gentiles to meet God's wrath? I, just recently, find that I believe it means the later....their time is drawing to a close and they will no more run over Jerusalem. Isn't it funny how you can look at the same scripture and all of the sudden see something so very different than before? ..........Whirlwind

I'm sorry you feel as you do. I would never believe or repeat anything that wasn't scripturally founded. Please forgive my intrusion on this thread. .......Whirlwind

Thank you for your reply Ayin Jade, I agree...there is NO reincarnation, we are "appointed once to die." I disagree when you say there was no previous age as it is supported in scripture, including those of Ephesians and Romans given in the previous post about the elect. He tells us that he foreknew, predestinated and justified them.....when, where and why did He do that if not before this age? I understand that it is not often taught....but it is true! ........Whirlwind

Chosen by our Father before the foundation of this world age! You may be opening a can of worms but here goes What does it mean "before the foundation of this age?" As Ephesians 1:4-5 tells us: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will. And also: Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. 29.For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30.Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified. Those that God foreknew (from the first age) are those that stood against Satan when he rebelled. They are justified and glorified.....they are predestined in this age to do what God wants them to do. He will lead, guide and direct their life. Those of free will He will not interfere with unless they ask. The elect that have died before end times are called the "remnant" and they take God's Word forward. We know that God is "no respector of persons." (Acts 10:34) So, the question is why would He have "chosen" and how could He foreknow and have justfied some if He is "no respector of persons?" He would not....they earned this in the first age and He knows He can count on them again in the end of days! These elect are those that will be "delivered up"...(Matthew 24:9, Mark 13:9 and Luke 21:12) for a testimony. They will allow the Holy Spirit to speak through them and that will bring many that have been deceived by Satan to know the truth. So...Matthew, as the others, were called and chosen from the first age. That is why he dropped everything he was doing and followed Christ. They had a destiny just as those that are being called now have. I believe that the following scripture applies to this event: Mark 10:31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first." Those, from the first age (those chosen in the first age), will be in this last generation to do God's work. (This is what the parable in Matthew 20:8-16 is about, I believe) I just lightly skimmed this topic and it is very deep....I hope I didn't confuse more than clarify but there is a reason the "elect" are the elect and a reason they are called and chosen while others are blinded. .........Whirlwind

Yes you may. But I do not believe that these 144,000 will be a bunch of "Jewish Billy Graham's" evangelizing the world becuase the Church is gone. This is an a priori conclusion of Pretribulational Rapturism to provide a way for the Church to be absent following the Sixth Seal. (Even though it fails to provide a witness during the first six seals). Yet there is no Scriptural evidence that these 144,000 sealed do any preaching at all! I'm not saying that they aren't Witnesses for Him, but Scripture does not say they are evangelizing anybody. They are described as "bond-servants" (doulous tou theou - slaves of God; not diakanous tou theou - servants of God). But not as evangelists... It says they are sealed to protect them from the coming wrath of God (really putting a hamper on those who posit that the entire seven years is the wrath of god). Because the Church is already sealed I believe these 144,000 are not members of the Church, though my theology is not so limited that I can't see God having both here at the same time. So I do believe that they are physical Israelites, but because of the uniqueness of the 12 tribes, I am not dogmatic and could be convinced there is some symbolism involved. For me, I would really like to know why He chose these 12 tribes... I'm sorry it took so long to answer you.....thank you for your reply. I agree with you...the 144,000 are sealed but nowhere does it state that they teach. My understanding is that before the end can come those 144,000 must be sealed to the truth before the advent of Christ: Revelation 7:3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads." I will tell you what I believe it is about....you may or may not agree with me. It has to do with God's elect. There are 7,000 "very elect" and 144,000 elect. The 144,000 of the tribes are the elect, those God has chosen. At the end of days they will, as most of the world, follow Satan believing he is our Christ. But, they must and will be sealed - know the truth - before the true Christ arrives, before it is too late! How does that happen and who does it? The "very" elect - the 7,000: Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." The number seven, as I'm sure you know, means spiritual completeness, so the 7,000 could be a literal 7,000 or be whatever number God thinks is the perfect number. They are the ones that witness in the end of days. When Christ was asked by His disciples to tell them about those last days, He said: Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them. 10.And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11.But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. That is when the "unpardonable sin" can be committed: Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. 11.And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12.For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say." So...some or all of the 7,000 are delivered before Satan or his workers and the Holy Spirit will speak through them and what is said will open the eyes and ears of the 144,000 and many others. As Luke said, when this "delivering up" is happening: Luke 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 18.But there shall not an hair of your head perish. Now, when we plant seeds with others, it may not seem to be very effective but when the Holy Spirit speaks many of those seeds of truth will sprout and souls will know the true Christ. I hate to make a long story any longer....but I will. The 7,000 never "bowed a knee to Baal"....they knew the truth and never mistakenly worshipped Satan. (for some reason I'm writing in past tense???) They are the ones that allowed the Holy Spirit to speak through them. The 144,000 did follow Satan but had their eyes opened before Christ came, before it was too late. They will pay a price for that but they will still be part of the first resurrection. All others, the spiritually dead, will be taught during the millennium and must be tested at it's end before they are either given eternal life or the lake of fire! All of the elect, the 144,000 and the 7,000 were "chosen before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4) and that is another story in itself! Therein may lay the answer to your original question about the tribes! They are the physical Israelites but that raises the question of where those tribes are now. Remember, I am of the "camp" that believes only the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi are properly called Jews. The others are the house of Israel (not the nation of Israel).....where are they today? .....Whirlwind

Hi Kari...I questioned my friend and the following was his answer, or part of his answer. I hope it will be of interest to you: 11 Chronicles 34:6 And so did he in the cities of Manasseh, and Ephraim, and Simeon, even unto Naphtali, with their mattocks round about. (my question to him) - The question is if the northern tribes are scattered what was that scripture in reference to. The questioner believes it shows that the tribes had melded. My answer was 11 Kings 17:24....other men were placed in those cities. (his answer ) - "Well....first of all....there is no question that the ten northern tribes were removed. There are a multitude of verses that show that to be the case. In addition....there are no specific verses that speak of their return from the Assyrian captivity. Your selection of [iI Kings 17:24] does indeed prove that the King of Assyria brought folks in from Babylon to re inhabit Samaria deserted by the exile of the Israelites. They are still living there in the first century and Simon Magus [Acts 8] is one of their descendants! The mention of the cities in the tribal areas of Manasseh, Ephraim, Simeon and Naphtali is to show that the entire area of Israel was being cleansed. It does not mean that these cities still remained standing. This is transpiring about eight years into Josiah's reign (verse 3 of II Chronicles 34) and Josiah became King in 640 B.C., so it is almost a hundred years after the Assyrian exile took place in 722 B.C. The word Mattocks can also be translated as "Ruins" as you can see here on the right hand side where different translations indeed refer to them just that way. The map shows Naphtali in the extreme north of Israel and Simeon in the extreme south. Manasseh, being split, covered the east as well as the west. Ephraim, being the leading tribe of Israel and in the center symbolized completeness of the cleansing by Josiah. He was so determined to wipe away the remnants of paganism and idolatry he even burned the bones of the priests on their alters (verse 5). Remember our study from [i Kings 13:1-2 about the Man of God? This is the result of that prophecy. When the King of Assyria took the Israelites....he took them all [iI Kings 17:18] leaving only Judah which at that time was composed of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi [i Kings 12:22-23]. Benjamin was the tribe spoken of in [i Kings 11:13] and the Levites left Israel because of what happened in [i Kings 12:31-32]. [iI Chronicles 11:13-17] tells of the priests leaving Israel and coming to Judah, joining their brothers, the Benjamites....and eventually becoming known as Jews also. If someone is telling you that this verse [iI Chronicles 34;6] proves that the Northern Kingdom of Israel still inhabited this area during the reign of Josiah...they just do not have a good grasp of biblical history. [iI Kings 17:23] itself, written after the return of Judah from Babylon 200 years later......says "They (The Ten Tribes) are still there....in Assyria"! I'm kind of running short on time this evening....so I'll get back to you on Anna, the prophetess of [Luke 2:36]. I'm pingin' Doug cause he likes history and also Chuck cause I see he is active again on this thread. It's been an interesting thread....hasn't it?" That was his reply on one of the topics. If you have any questions about it I would be glad to relay them....I'll let you know about Anna too. Perhaps she was just one of the few that remained with Judah??? .........Whirlwind

That is the gathering of Israel for judgment, not the Church. Jesus doesn't reveal the rapture of the Church, this is a key error so many people make. All the references in the gospels with the exception of John 14:1-4 (which is general, not specific) are concerning the Second Advent. Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, reveals the catching awy of the Church, the mystery not revealed in the OT or Gospels. There is no revealing of any such thing. All are judged at the same time.....when Christ comes at His 2nd Advent. Where did you read the church was judged separately? Those that are "taken" first in that scripture are those that are taken by anti-christ. They fall for his lies. Christ wants us to be left and working for Him in the fields (the world.) Do you truly believe that when the apostles asked Him about the end of days (Matthew, Mark and Luke) that He would say He foretold them all things and yet left that little rapture detail out? Not only left it out but told them what was expected of them up until the time He came to "judge and make war." Ancient....it didn't happen. Paul didn't reveal any "rapture" mystery. There is NO catching away of the church. We, if we live in that time, we will all be here and better listen to what He told us we would be doing. If not.....we will fall for the deception of Satan and then......wailing and gnashing of teeth when we realize what has happened (at His 2nd. Advent).

There are many mysteries, legends, and traditions as to what happened to the 10 lost tribes of the Northern Kingdom. The truth is that the tribes were never lost. Most of the people of the Northern Kingdom were deported to ancient Assyria (2 Kings 17:6). Many of those who remained in the land re-united with Judah in the south (2 Chronicles 34:6-9). Assyria was then conquered by Babylon, who then went on to conquer and deport the two remaining tribes of the Southern Kingdom, Judah and Benjamin (2 Kings 25:21). When King Cyrus allows the Israelites to return to Israel (Ezra chapter 1), many from the northern ten tribes and southern two tribes returned to Israel. In the New Testament, the prophetess Anna (Luke 2:36) was from the tribe of Asher (one of the 10 supposed lost tribes). In Jesus

If you do open it again, or someone responds, I hope I won't miss it....it is interesting. May I ask why you believe the 144,000 are the ones that preach? .....Whirlwind

Exactly! No matter what they do the missles keep coming. .......Whirlwind

Thank you for your thoughts on this subject. I agree with what you stated but a question arises; when you say, or when He said, "Faith comes by the hearing and hearing via His words?" How, or why....do such different faiths come from the same words? Most of us believe in Christ and most of us believe in a life after this but so many differ on the trip there. We read the same passages and see a different lesson contained in them. Perhaps there is no absolute right or wrong.....or perhaps there is. Some of the differing scriptures I don't believe will affect anyone's salvation but others will. I see the rapture doctrine as one that will. My reasoning is that if church goers - those that don't truly study but accept the teachings of their pastors (who may or may not be false teachers) believe that they will be flown away then they are not prepared for the end of days.....they won't know that the anti-christ comes first, pretending to be our Saviour....They will follow him and in doing so will take the mark of the beast! They will believe his lies. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. We know he is coming, we know he is coming before the Advent of Christ and we should be prepared for his deceit. So....my question is, are those that are being taught rapture also being taught that, just in case there is no rapture? ........Whirlwind