HisMindinme

Very interested -- thanks :-)

No, I don't think we're near the end of the set. No, I have not read Dr. Tackett's blog -- thank you for the recommendation. I will go look at it. I have joined the class part-way through the material. I have talked with my wife about the matter and we're going to go through the entire thing and I will attend the Facilitator training by satelite when it comes here to Atlanta in September 08, next.

I am delighted to get your feedback. The final question of the morning was, "How do we take such things to affect some level or measure of change in America to reverse the damage done?" Our answers were something like: 1) Put this information in as many hands as possible -- leading people ultimately to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior! 2) Use this information as a basis for instruction of our children to innoculate them to some degree against the atheistic state and education system we're presently in. 3) Use this information as foundation (along with other things) for witnessing to our nation person-to-person and ACTUALLY getting out in the highways-and-hedges and BEING a witness!

Our sunday school class has been going through the DVD set for the Truth Project put out by the Focus on the Family group in Colorado Springs, CO. So far, this series has been a powerful and eye-opening experience, especially around the matters of Science/Darwinianism -- VS -- God/Bible/Creation. Also, it has been eye-opening around matters of the state, politics, government and American history. I HIGHLY recommend this series to EVERYONE (believer and non-believer alike). Does anyone else have experience with the set and comments about it?

Ask YOURSELF before the Spirit of God in you: 1. Are you willing to deny yourself chocolate from time to time? (fasting) 2. The money you spent on chocolate and Pad Thai, did God present you a choice to send it to a missionary instead? 3. The time you spent in the restraunt eating, did God present to you an opportunity to share the gospel instead? I can clearly say to you for myself, I have LOTS of times when I have chosen to fill-up my own lusts (not just food). I am talking emotional and thoughtful. I am talking about putting and placing my focus on being angry at someone in my thoughts instead of being merciful to them. When I do that, my thoughts produce the chemical reactions that feed the lusts of my flesh for the dopamine or other "reward" chemicals. Now, what am I doing? Instead of being merciful to my brother or sister, I am spending the time and choices on my flesh. This is what James says when he talks about spending things on our lusts. Going to a Pad Thai restraunt to eat seems to be making light or walking right by the whole point. The point is: Where do we place our focus? Are we focused on seeing our flesh for what it is and tearing down the idols on the landscape of our heart? The idols are the thoughts and imaginations we set up in our hearts, where we go to sit and ponder and think -- FOR THE PURPOSE OF -- feeding our flesh and lusts, because as we sit internally thinking, pondering, reliving, imagining, inventing and concocting, our bodies are busily responding chemically and getting "high!"

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing. For to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I do not find. 1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I exhort you as temporary residents and pilgrims to abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. And these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do. I think the scripture is pretty clear. Again, the issue is this: Who is in the driver seat? The Mind of Christ in you -- OR -- the lusts of your flesh? The lusts of the flesh are clearly warring, at odds and contrary to the will, direction and purpose of the Mind of God, the deepest part of Him: His core. So, we find a war raging between the deep things of God and the lusts of our flesh. I think the line is drawn around conscience, conviction, study and acceptance of being tried. We're born into being enslaved to the lusts of our flesh. This is our natural state. The process of living in Christ is the process of an ever growing presence of His Mind in us and the tearing down of the Mind-Body(Lust) natural state and replacing it with a mind that is NOT enslaved. In this life, I will NEVER run out of territory to conquer (my natural state being conquered by the Mind of Christ born in me and growing). So, the trap is to somehow validate my lust and say, "It's ok." What I ought to be saying is, "Look, there's more land to take! More of these natural thoughts enslaved to the lusts of my flesh to be torn down!" This is what Isreal was given to us for: an example. Instead, we're asking to "live in peace" with the inhabitants (thoughts enslaved to our flesh lusts). We're not called to live at peace and co-exist. We're called to an internal warfare. That internal warfare is to replace our broken and enslaved mind with His Mind. That said -- We need to rest, so we do. We're designed to rest. This is NOT about being brutal or harsh. This is NOT about flaying our skin open with whips, starving ourselves, dressing in sackclothe and wailing in tears. It is about finding the Mind and purpose of Christ FIRST, denying the lusts of the flesh by means of and way of living in the Mind of Christ in us. Denying the flesh is not something we do in and of ourselves -- it comes as a product of living in His Mind in us. He gives His Mind to us as He sees fit. It is not OUR choice, but His. Seek Him. Seek His Mind in yourself and then live from it. Conquer your flesh and lusts as He leads by His Spirit in you depositing the Mind of Christ in you (same mental disposition) and then living from that mind. In doing that, THEN you'll live from a place of godly warfare against your lusts. The rest of you is unconquered. Accept that. Deal with it. Live with it. If you don't like it: Seek Him in you more and more. Study to show yourselve approved. 2Ti 2:15 Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2Ti 2:16 But shun profane, vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat like a gangrene; ...

Hahahaha ... Somewhere in here is conscience and the active presence of the Spirit of God in us (I think). God gave us this body we're in. I think He did so with a great goal and purpose. What I think has happened is this: We've got the wrong driver in the driver seat. The driver needs to be the Mind of God in us (implanted and imparted by His Spirit) -- Vs -- the whims and desires of the lusts of the flesh. Jesus talked about picking up our cross daily, denying ourselves and following Him. I think what He means is that when we place our focus on the Mind of Christ birthed in us, when place our focus on His Spirit and the work (product) of His Spirit in us, when we put our focus on finding how He thinks -- AND THEN -- we follow after THAT instead of following the crying of our flesh for more "medication" -- when we live this way, the flesh is going to be denied, the flesh is going to suffer (i.e. "cross", pain, etc) and we will "follow after" the Spirit (or spirit -- mental disposition) of God in us instead. Yes, our bodies will still respond to the mind of Christ in us by producing the chemistry. It will happen. The issue is: Who is guiding and Who is in control? The Mind of God in us -- OR -- the flesh and its lusts? Look the the scriptures. Look to Christ Himself. Find what He thought and what He did and said based on what He thought. Look beyond the details of what He thought in each situation and look to the underlaying principle. Jeus was about mercy. Jesus was about honesty. Jesus was about compassion. Jesus was about such things as this. Paul picks up how the fruits of the Spirit (the mental disposition of God born in us producing) love, peace, joy, long suffering and so on. It is juxtaposed against the flesh and the carnal mind. For me, this is not about having all the answers, but about the journey of doing what Paul points to in 2 Cor 10: Tearing down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against "gnosis" of God: The Mind of God in us. Not that we're robots, but that our "mental pathways" work like His, we reason like He reasons, we discern like He does instead of with a mind that is enslaved to the chemistry set of our bodies. I have spent more than 40 years building fortresses of thoughts and emotions in my heart. Each thought, each imagination (rational or more than likely -- irrational) are like bricks or stones in the fortress of my mind. This fortress has several goals: 1) Keep God out. Keep out Him, out His thinking and out His Spirit. 2) Set up ME AS GOD in me. The second thing there is actually a dupe, a ruse and a lie. The real "king" of my life in this world without Christ is Satan Himself, living in guise and guile behind my thoughts, which are really his thoughts. Joh 8:43 Why do you not know My speech? Because you cannot hear My Word. Joh 8:44 You are of the Devil as father, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and did not abide in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it. This is about lusts. It was about lusts for the devil and it is about lusts for us. The lies (thoughts, imaginations) are built for the SOLE PURPOSE of feeding lusts.

James 3:13-4:3 Who is wise and knowing among you? Let him show his works by his good behavior, in meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and contention in your heart, do not boast and lie against the truth. This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but is earthly, beastly, devilish. For where jealousy and contention are, there is confusion and every foul deed. But the wisdom from above is firstly truly pure, then peaceable, forbearing, yielding, full of mercy and of good fruits, not partial and not pretended. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for the ones making peace. From where do wars and fightings among you come? Is it not from this, from your lusts warring in your members? You desire and do not have. You murder, and are jealous, and are not able to obtain. You fight and you war, and you do not have, because you do not ask. You ask, and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, in order that you may spend on your lusts. Where I truly want to point is how there is a driver beneath what we think, feel, say and do. That driver can ONLY be: 1. Lusts (flesh, sin, appetites, desires, sensual, etc) 2. Spirit of God, Mind of Christ and THAT imparted and born in us. The details above these two are important, but not as important as seeing who is sitting in the driver seat of our lives. The single and core critical element of living is to discern "Who is driving this ship?" (me, you, anyone). To get to that answer requires some self-examination AND some tools for discernment, some insight and light to see. It requires knowing WHAT to look for and HOW (clues) to recognize it.

I could not agree more with the "crane our necks" view. You've said it well, I think. Thanks for not barking down the conservative trail because it would only serve to distract. I am not wanting to "bash" either way, but to look through and past and beyond it to a more core and heart issue behind it.

News organizations are like any other business. The motivation is a combination of making money and professional pride in a product. The money part is plain enough. The pride part is human and gets murky, but it is discernable. NOTE: I am only using the "News" because it is easily available, verifiable and something we're all familiar with. I have a basic premise and I think it is evidenced in the titles given to news articles. The premise is: Our minds produce thoughts and from the thoughts automatically come emotions. Our bodies respond to our thoughts and emotions by producing various chemicals (i.e. dopamine and others). It doesn't matter if the thoughts and emotions are rational or irrational, the net effect is the same: The production of "reward" chemicals, which chemistry becomes the driver or our motivating factor in producing more and more of the same thoughts and emotions to keep the flow of "reward" chemicals flowing. See: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/...80114103723.htm <-- One small example of studies that are confirming what I have pointed to above. For me, this is precisely what the Bible points at when it talks about following the flesh rather than the Spirit (either Person of God -- OR -- the mental disposition gifted to us and imparted, implanted, renewed and transformed in our own minds). Nevertheless, the issue is plain: On one side is flesh (chemistry (lust) driven motivation) and on the other: Spirit of God (Mind of Christ in US as a result of His working and our focusing on what He does -- choosing to follow the thinking of God rather than the desires, lusts and appetites of the flesh). So, what does all of this have to do with the news? News people seem to have two agendas. First, they need to get paid and pay the bills. Money itself is a means to an end --> provides the raw material or power to provide for feeding of lusts. Lusts in this case can be as simple as maintaining food, clothing and sheltar. So, making money is a powerful motivator in the equation. How do news people make money? Advertising mainly. The more readers and viewers come back to a particular news source, the more advertisers are willing to pay the news people to have their products and services advertised. This is just Good Business 101. I am not sharing anything new. I am merely "setting the table." Beyond the money, the news people have learned to play upon the chemical lust reward system of you and I. The titles are revealing. NOTICE: The Emotional Tone of the words and phrases in news article titles are never neutral. The tones are almost always something non-neutral: Confrontational, Opposing, Surreal, Hyper, Disgusting, Outlandish, Over-the-Top'ish and a host of other words and phrases anyone could come up with if they spent enough time. What is the purpose of making the news article titles this way? I believe it is done for the purpose of stirring the chemical reward (lust) system and preys on people who are predisposed to follow and become addicted to their own chemical reward system. The purpose is to keep stoking the chemical fires of lust. The purpose understands that people get addicted to the chemical rewards for first: Reading the article titles, which produce a host of thought responses and then emotional responses. We then open the article and begin to read-N-feed. The wording of the articles bring on more thought responses, which induce more emotion. The body responds automatically by producing reward chemicals and the feeding is ON! NOTE: It does NOT matter what "side" of an issue we are on. For instance, it doesn't matter if you are a Conservative or a Liberal. Both sides of the issue are still human. Both sides still have a body. Both sides still have this chemistry thing tempting, egging, pressing, begging and vying for attention for the purpose of being fed. So, the emotional content to a Conservative: "Those damned Liberals!" is just as emotionally rewarding as "Global Warming" is the the tree-hugger Liberal. Right and wrong take a backseat to Lusts in the driver seat. I am going to pull of some headline from the news right NOW and see what you think: Saturday Showdown On the Strip, In the South Woman Kills Self, 2 Children by Walking Onto Interstate 14 Arrested in Alleged Spain Terror Plot College Wrestler Killed in Crash on Way to Meet Police Find Five Dead in Submerged Car in Kentucky Tom Ridge: Waterboarding is Torture 2 Crew Members Found Dead on Container Ship Striking Writers May Resume Talks With Studios Confrontation --> Showdown, Arrested, Striking, "May Resume Talks" Sadness --> "Kills Self, 2 Children", "Wrestler Killed", "Police Find Five Dead", "Found Dead" Morality --> "Waterboarding is Torture" We feed off of the emotions. We get the thoughts, images, mental pictures and then the emtions result instantly from them JUST BY READING. In doing so, the body automatically responds. And what keeps us coming back? What keeps us opening the news sites on the internet? What keeps us turning on the television and switching to the news program (or any other show for that matter)? Even as "Christians". There are plenty of Christians who are enslaved and bound to the chemistry set of their own body and wrap it up in a religious cliches, words, tones, dogmas and doctrines. We even feed off of, "We're right and THEY are GOING TO HELL!" After realizing the truth of this happening in ME, I started asking myself: Ok Larry, if there is this Thought-->Emotion-->Lust link and machine and that machine just happens without me even trying, what am I to do? What can truly change by "Knowing Christ"; what is the REAL difference to be found in here? For me, the change has come down to "Who is in the driver seat?" I cannot stop my body from responding chemically to my thoughts and emotions. However, what I can choose is what controls me? Is it the Mind of Christ in me, His Spirit (mental disposition and Person) in me -- OR -- is it the screaming of my flesh for more dopamine reward chemistry and irrational thoughts and irrational emotions? How do I know what state I am in? Flesh or Spirit? The bible gives me the clues. Scriptures like Galatians 5 and others tell me the fruits (results) of getting, having and following after the thinking, mental disposition, inclination and path of God Himself birthed in me by His Spirit. It also points out the signs (results) of a person (me or you) living based on following after the lusts (chemistry set) of our bodies. So -- back to the news. What keeps me coming back to the news, the computer news sites, the television news programs and so on? What keeps me in the movie theater and purchasing HBO and Cenimax, Stars and Encore on my cable box? What keeps me scanning the newpaper headlines? What keeps me listening to Air America or Rush Limbaugh, Neil Bortz and Sean Hannity? What keeps me going to Move-on dot Org and other such things? (I am using "me" pointing to us all). We return again and again and again because like that little mouse, we want to feed our flesh with more of the chemistry in us. We want to get high. The side of an issue doesn't matter so much as the motivator behind getting on that side to begin with. Ask yourself: You're a Liberal or your a Conservative. You're a this or a that. Why? What keeps you on that side? What holds you there and causes you to put blinders on about the other "sides"? What causes the hostilities to rage? David asked, "Why do the heathen rage?" I'll tell you why-- because we are ALL human and we are ALL (without the rational divine Mind of Christ in us) enslaved to the lusts and chemistry sets of our flesh.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/...80104122807.htm I remember a time when this was actually news to me; a brand new thing I had never heard of or considered. Perhaps someone here will find it to be true for them as well.

I think you need to explain a way to "remove discussing a position from a person." Lead by example. Use this thread as your example. If you can do that, we will ALL have something upon which to move forward. If you cannot, then one way to read that will be your request is pontificating, moralizing and sermanizing. So, please provide a real written example based on this thread. I look forward to your example. As I am sitting here considering this and VERY much wanting to read your example, I am considering how it can be done. Perhaps like this? A person who makes predictions, prognostications or prophesies for a specific period of time and then the thing they have said, "Thus saith the Lord" does NOT come true -- AND -- then further states the reason for the failed prophecy is that people prayed and the grace of God spared us is simply a liar.

I think you need to explain a way to "remove discussing a position from a person." Lead by example. Use this thread as your example. If you can do that, we will ALL have something upon which to move forward. If you cannot, then one way to read that will be your request is pontificating, moralizing and sermanizing. So, please provide a real written example based on this thread. I look forward to your example.

Excellent pointing to scripture!

More examples of CLUES about humanity walking in an emotional twist for the purpose of lust feeding:

First, given what I now know, I certainly will not attempt to "talk you out of it." I see that I am here now, loving the Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit and Mind in me (through His Spirit in me). I spent a long time in a church body who practiced "slain in the Spirit" a lot (common thing). I will not do it again except that it be the reality of it and not the "culture" of it and my own mind at work doing for the sake of "being a part of the group." I was there then, I am here now. You there where you are. The important thing is: Christ in you, His Mind IN you. Nevertheless, the comments I write below are not for you who I am quoting below. When you get to the last paragraph of this response, you'll read my reason for writing this. My prayer is for your peace in the Lord and His Spirit in you forming His Mind in you: The Mind of Christ. I can see this thing in me as well, where I am "shocked." <-- intense emotion that I don't just experience (we all experience shock), but after the experience, finding that both positive and negative emotion feeds my lust, I then choose to think thoughts to dwell in and on the matter. For what purpose? To feed the lusts of my flesh. "Holy Spirit is put in a box" <-- Christian cliche, jargon and Christo-speak. There is nothing wrong with it if the Mind of Christ is the source. That aside, the key to see is how Christians have a "culture" just like any other "human mind" based culture. For this person even the phrase "truth is despised" might be something heard in a sermon or some other venue. I don't know and I am not guessing, just observing. Notice the trail of thinking leading to emotion. This person "sees" all these things (i.e. "truth despised" and "H.S. in a 'box'") and the outcome is shock and sadness. Now, the thing to see is how this is a CLUE (not a judgement) -- a CLUE. The clue begs a question: Mind of Christ -- OR -- Mind of man? Glorifying God -- Vs -- Feeding Lusts of Flesh? I am NOT attempting to answer this question for this person. I am pointing it out and writing to you: This is what happens in ME as well. I see it happening in me and after watching it in me for several years now, I turn outward and see it happening in others (indirectly and externally from CLUES). So, I ask myself: Are others like me? Does it work the same in them as well? I think the answer is YES -- it does. Here is a another example: "Candi has it right." <-- we're all searching for right. Right feels good. Wrong feels bad (but can still be fed from). This is like, "No one wants to be on the losing team!" We're in search of "right" because "being right" feeds the lusts of the flesh. Is there something more to this than that? I think there is: Being (like) Christ! <-- reborn in precise patterning, reconstructed in the same likeness. Notice how Jesus asks us to come: in abject humility of "NOTHING in me is 'right'!" I need YOU (Jesus). In this state, the Lord then responds. How does He respond in this New Testament? By placing His Spirit in us. And what is the purpose and reason for putting His Spirit in us? To put Himself in us -- His mind -- the Mind of Christ born and birthed in us. A mind unshackled from obedience to sin, lusts and flesh. Here is where we get a righteousness that is not our own, but His who is the embodiment of righteousness, holiness and so on. Do you see how "Candi is right" is divisional? The person writing this just put a line around Candi and themselves and effectively said, "We're right" and that may imply (to them) -- you're wrong, or at least -- you're NOT right (you're something else). It is this "contest" that is NOT the unity of the Spirit of Christ (Mind of Christ) in us. Christ is not divided. So, when we see such divisional language, it is a CLUE about what is happening. Honestly, personally, I used to believe and think like Candi. For years I did. I just see things differently now for myself and for reasons. The chief reason is I now see my own mechanism of my own mind feeding emotions to the lusts of my flesh like a good slave. I challenge things like "slain in the Spirit" IN MYSELF because I now put myself under the self-examination microscope looking for where this lust feeding mechanism is at work in me and then ask and seek after the Mind of Christ in it through His Spirit in me using His Word to inspire (inflowing Spirit) me. Because I have walked in these shoes I am empathetic and understand. I could not be here now without having been there then. There led to here. Even that is not important: What IS important is that something of Christ was in me all along that trail from there to here. What I am deeply encouraged by is how these folks have that self-same thing. So, "slain in the Spirit" is something I will not do, but I will now not look to cause these dear Christians to stumble because of what I am saying. Forgive me if I have said something that causes someone here to faulter before the Lord. God bless you all. There are words to write where danger is pointed out, but there comes a time when it is obvious that the message will not be heard. This is one of those times. So, what I have written above in comment and response is not intended for those who wrote these things, but to those others who do hear and do understand. My prayers are towards ALL of us together to live in peace together in the Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit and Mind in us.

Yep! She was clueless about the que. Her thoughts not conditioned yet to the script of it all. Been there - done that. I have had the hand on my forhead pushing me back as well as a physical "que" that this guy expected me to fall. Honestly, I pushed back! Finally, he gave up. Somewhere later on I recall a conversation about "fighting the Spirit" -- No, I was fighting myself and YOU! It is funny to me how want to lay out this body of thought which says, "The Spirit can do ANYTHING HE WANTS!" <-- Like this is a blank check argument of God being "in-charge" and "sovereign" and somehow that mental slight-of-hand is validation of any experience people have. The neck stiffins, the back arches, the hairs go up and the "Hrrmmph -- how dare you challenge my experience where my God can do anything HE likes!" Whooooaaa -- wait a minute there big fella ... this goes back to the thing "Phil" was saying about how he searches the bible to find validation for his experiences (or something close akin to that). Having said that, I am walking on eggshells here to somewhat of a degree and I sense the need to be circumspect. 1Co 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours becomes a stumbling block to those who are weak. Rom 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or also why do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Rom 14:12 So then each one of us will give account concerning himself to God. Rom 14:13 Then let us not judge one another any more, but rather judge this, not to put a stumbling-block or an offense toward his brother. I think I see what Paul is pointing at here: He's pointing out how people get something in them like "slain in the Spirit." They have Christ. They believe in Jesus. They are Christians. In thier humanity, however, they get some quirky stuff in them (for Paul's example it was eating meat offered to idols). For our example here it is "slain in the Spirit." So, the question becomes: If I "judge my brother" over "slain in the Spirit", do I at the same time lose sight of his eternal soul and in attacking him over "slain in the Spirit" endanger his belief in Christ by raising the banner of division between us? Do I compound the matter of BOTH our working towards Christ formed in us by getting off the rails and distracted? Perhaps if I focused on helping us BOTH find the Mind of Christ, we come to a place of agreement about "slain in the Spirit" -- perhaps not. What about Paul's example? Does he indicate that the other brother EVER stops believing the way he does about meat? Paul is grandly mute on the outcome. It leaves me to consider that I am wasting my time after a certain time in focusing on "slain in the Spirit." What I really REALLY need to put focus on is the forming of the Mind of Christ in me and sharing that thing with my brother. Perhaps we'll find agreement, perhaps we won't. Nevertheless, we'll focus on Christ and we'll both win in Him. Does this mean I pick up the banner of "slain in the Spirit?" No, actually, I think it means I thank God that Christ is preached and I move on from my brother in Christ and put my focus on the larger portion of humanity that DOES NOT know Christ. My efforts are better spent sharing my faith with those who know not Christ than quibbling with my brother about "slain in the Spirit." Now, if someone comes to me and ASKS me about the matter, THEN I share with them the truth of what I believe: Nevertheless, I do so ALWAYS in moderation of emotion, careful as to have an eye out for crossing the line into my own hyper-emotionalism and lust feeding because I know there is that thing in me -- oh yeah -- and let's not forget the Devil is right there to lend a hand to my flesh feeding frenzy-tendency! Got into a bit of a tiff with my wife today: We talked about it tonight. Dawned on me that the hiding player in the game was the Devil and Hell itself. I pointed that out. I said to her, "Honey, I am not giving enough credit here. I am blaming you and blaming me and leaving out a huge instigator in our spat and he needs his cover blown!" She agreed. The same can and sure does happen here. With me. With you all. The Devil is gleefully happy to have us in a combative lust feeding frenzy on the divisional emotions of debate, argument and in-fighting between us. In this "slain in the Spirit" discussion, I am sober enough to want to point this out MOSTLY in my own self. I apologize to you all and ask your forgiveness if I have been a sucker for demonic tactics in bringing a level of division and judgement. Paul was right: ... but rather judge this, not to put a stumbling-block or an offense toward his brother.

I think we should be able to discuss the relative merits of a person's position without denigrating them personally Its not a position thats based on objective analyses of current events though, its simply Robertson claiming he has a divinely inspired prophecy. Thus, since his prophecy is purely of personal origin and basis on his part, I am not sure how one can discuss its merits without discussing Robertson personally. Yep! It's like trying to keep religion out of politics. Not possible when politics crosses the line into the arena of religion (i.e. abortion, gay marriage, etc). Brother Robertson opened himself to folks looking at and inspecting the fruit of his living. He made the choice to step on to the public stage. Each time he appears on his television show and says, "Thus Saith the Lord," he's put himself in a position for folks to ask questions about what he does in that personal arena. Now -- if we were talking about what he does at home, what he does in his bedroom or some other non-public ministry aspect of his life, then yes -- I agree. Moreover, I further agree with you in this sense: An unrighteous discernment geared towards either the feeding of my own flesh and lusts or mine plus others IS an aggrevated personal assualt NOT based on the Mind of Christ and Spirit of God in ANYONE. So, to where I have perhaps crossed THAT line, I apologize. To where I have not (or others have not) no apology is required. What if I had said, "Thus saith the Lord" and it didn't come to pass? Honestly, I expect folks here to call me on it. I expect to be looked at, given suggestions, corrections -- AND -- I expect along that trail will be folks speaking from their own enslaved minds rather than the Spirit of God. I am not saying it is right, I am saying that I expect it. Better than "Can't we all just get along" -- is -- "Can't we all just be adults?" -- better yet -- "Can't we all just strive for the Mind of Christ in us?" I greatly appreciate the call to calm and to a self-examination of source (either my mind or the Mind of Christ). I VERY much appreciate that reminder. Yet, I balance that call to also give respect to the freedom of expression of people here. Paul said it nicely: Php 1:15 Some indeed even preach Christ because of envy and strife, and some also of good will. Php 1:16 Those, indeed, preach Christ out of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds. Php 1:17 But these others preach in love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel. Php 1:18 What then? Nevertheless, in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached. And I rejoice in this. Yet, also I will rejoice. Are some speaking their mind out of contention, insinceriy, pretense and for the purpose of making other angry or adding to their pain -- YOU BET! For me, the better call to folks is to just remind us to seek the Mind of Christ and -- to find out and become aware of our own brokenness and then come back to the subject at hand. There are plenty of people here who are quite capable of doing so and apologizing along the trail. So, as for me: I think the matter of what Brother Robertson said and did, how he responded and certainly my take on the matter has been fully said. I am quite happy to let the thread stand as is as a reference point and be done with it (for my part only). Others certainly will add as they feel led and want I am quite sure.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep as the rest do, but let us watch and be calm. This REALLY speaks to me. First, regarding the topic of this post: I need to not sleep, but watch. What am I to watch primarily? Myself! Next -- things external to me. The part that Paul writes that really super speaks in my heart is: "be calm." Good advice for a human being addicted to feeding lusts with hyper intense emotions. Makes me take a deep breath, exhale and just relax and approach the matters of life once again. Reminds me to stay aware of myself, of my own propensity to feeding my lusts on my own ginned up emotions from my thoughts. Also -- to "using" you all -- your posts and words -- as triggers to incite me to starting off the whole cycle of feeding in myself. Again -- I am quite thankful for this board and the interaction here. I am learning a lot about me.

I find it an interesting observation of both my own behavior and what I see in others as well: We write things based on our own emotional lust feeding, but then an interesting thing happens. When we touch off an emotional response nerve in someone else, we feed on the combative exchange as well. I know I sure do and I am thankful to have this new awareness getting more and more focus in me as I write this. Thanks to you all! I am going to give this special attention from now on. I know there is a godly side to this, but my first step is to see the lust-feeding side of it in me. My first step is to just watch and observe myself doing it. Moreover, when I see that and observe it for a time and get to know it at that level, then to seek the Mind of Christ: What does Jesus think? What is the Mind of Christ? Seeking the Mind of Christ birthed in myself of the Spirit of God so that my own mind can be laid to rest, I can pick up that part of my own cross and take up the Mind and thinking of Christ instead. My flesh and lusts will not be fed in it and I will suffer. A very interesting trail is it not? I am happy to know what you all think of it.

I did not pull anything in response to what you wrote. I am a "Pentecostal." Brother Pat is out of line and his response to apparently NOT speaking truth from the Spirit is LAME! As for upset and anger. <-- Ad Hominem attack. Do you know what it is? It is when someone is critical of the messenger and skips right over the message, using something they see "wrong" in the messenger to discredit the message. What you've said it not a full Ad Hominem reaction because it is mitigated by your additional statement: "Unfortunately I think Pat spoke too soon ..." You are attempting to put some focus on the message itself, so to that I am happy to know it. I will agree that upset and anger CAN play a role because if a person is motivated from the natural mind, then the purpose is to provide a vehicle for emotion for the purpose of feeding the lusts of the flesh. To this end, I agree with the potential behind your writing and what you are possibly pointing at. I will point out however, my emotions and my flesh and my lust -- the final say so of it is with me and with God Himself: not you. That said -- I can say to you with a clear conscience, my motivation is not "Pentecostal Upset." My motivation is to point out the mechanism of humanity at work and put it into the awareness of my brothers and sisters here (as other places -- like church, friends and family). The goal is to illustrate, open for discussion and feedback (which thing is being accomplished) the topic of the human mechanism at work as I think it is in what Pat Robertson has said (prognostications) and his response to them not coming true. I think the more appropriate and Mind of Christ response is to: a) Apologize -- "I got this wrong. I am sorry." b) Refocus on Christ and Truth in Him -- "I will not speak in 'Thus saith the Lord' without more sureness in myself." <-- or something to that affect. Finally, I expect such Ad Hominem reactions. People here are people. Christians are people. As such, each person (like me) has their own lusts and lack of awareness of how we use thoughts and emotions to feed our flesh. Moreover, we're unaware of how we dress this up in Christian clothing for the purpose of self-righteousness and self-justification, all the while the flesh and lusts are feasting on the abundant emotions of our "Christian" cliches, jargon, thoughts and so on. The key is to be aware and this is my purpose: to first raise that awareness in myself and then to share my self-awareness with others by any means that I can, without causing too much injury (either to myself or others).

I was considering a thing this morning as I was driving in to work that I think has direct bearing on this matter of

I pulled this comment simply because it just doesn't sit well with me as much as I flatly disagree with what brother Robertson has said and he handling of a prophecy unfulfilled. I pray the Lord's mercy towards his heart, mind and soul.