wingnut-

Hello again salty, I thought you were probably addressing Marilyn, but I wanted to make certain. I understand your position, this is one of the few events that you and I disagree on, regarding the time of the millenium. So, I agree with you that the temple, the river, and the tree are all literal, and a day is coming when we will all fix our eyes on them. We just don't agree on when that is, and that is because of our view on the millenium itself. I really only have one line of questioning for you in regards to the millenium. Looking at just the Old Testament prophets, how many times is the millenium spoken of, and how many times do they attach a thousand years to it? How many times is it referred to as a day? I ask because I cannot find a single time that the prophets referred to this as a thousand years. I know John did in Revelation, but I cannot seem to locate any other passage in which this is the case. Keeping in mind that Revelation may be the most symbolic book in all of scripture, it appears to me that the millenium would fall in that category as well. When we consider why John wrote the book in the style he did, it is not difficult to understand why it is unlike any other. I am sure you already know these things, but I am going to give a brief summary for those who may not. John was imprisoned on the isle of Patmos because of his faith in Jesus. Before he was sent there, they had already boiled him in oil, intending to kill him. John survived because the Lord was not done with him yet, which scared his captors, because when they boiled people in oil they were supposed to die. This is why they sent him to Patmos, an island prison where they sent the most dangerous criminals. John wrote Revelation while he was on the isle, but he still had to get his captors to take the book off of the island. His crime was his faith, so they were not going to allow him to keep preaching about Jesus. This is why the book is written as it is, to the unbeliever, it is gibberish. It jumps and skips around, it is full of symbolism, and to those who do not know scripture to understand these symbols, it appears to be the rantings of a madman. It is in Revelation that we are presented with the millenium, or the thousand years. So what I am asking is if you have any scripture outside of Revelation that speaks of a thousand years? I look forward to your response, God bless you.

Hello again dear sister Marilyn, I understand how you are arriving at your conclusions, as I've stated previously, I once held the same viewpoint as you. I think the key though, is found in that first sentence as you said, from Zechariah 13. When Zechariah divides the 2/3 and 1/3, he states that this is in "all the land." Jerusalem is in the land, so this division in chapter 13 includes those within the city. I don't disagree with you that some of the 2/3 will not leave Jerusalem, they are not His, so it is completely reasonable to assert that they will not heed the prophets. They may not even know what the prophets said, because they are not His. That being said, we must remember that Jerusalem is given over to the Gentiles for 42 months, or 3 1/2 years. Keeping in mind that the Jews will rebuild their temple and resume sacrifices in the first 3 1/2 years, it is clear that this will not happen until the final 3 1/2 years, after the antichrist rises from the fatal head wound. In chapter 14 Zechariah is discussing what happens at the very end, which is part of that time frame. We also know from the prophets that the Jews who will come to know Jesus will flee, and they will be kept from Satan's reach, as well as sealed on their foreheads to keep them from the righteous judgements of God. They are the 1/3 Zechariah spoke of. The fact that they are kept from Satan's reach for the full 3 1/2 years means that they cannot be taken or overcome by the enemy in any way. Now I understand you see this as part of the millenium, a literal thousand years, but you have to account for the "frosty darkness" Zechariah spoke of, which is a direct link to the opening of the 6th seal. I look forward to your response, your input is extremely valuable. God bless you.

number one for me

Hello salty, If you were referring to me, I am not leaving this out, it just hadn't entered the discussion Marilyn and I were having. What Ezekiel writes in chapter 47 is symbolic as well. First off, we see the symbolic tie to the Garden of Eden and the creation account from Genesis. This was a time before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. The illustration here is to show that this is how eternity will be, only what is to come is imperishable. The temple spoken of is clarified in Revelation, the Lord will be our temple, and from Him the living water flows. What is illustrated is all the life that flourishes because of this living water. The living water does not come until New Jerusalem, and neither does the tree of life. God bless you.

I do see the connection, wingnut however I see Zech. 14 as a foretaste in time, Millennium before the New heavens & New Earth with the New Jerusalem. Do you see that Zech. says that the waters flow to the sea. (Zech. 14: 8) However in the New Jerusalem we see that there is NO SEA. (Rev.21: 1) There are other differences also – Zechariah 14. - Waters to the sea. (Zech. 14: 8) - Plague upon those who do not go up to Jerusalem. (Zech. 14: 17 & 18) - Sacrifices to learn of what Christ`s sacrifice meant – a life for a life. (Zech. 14: 21) Revelation 21 & 22. - No sea. (Rev. 21: 1) - No death, pain, sorrow, crying. (Rev. 21: 4) - No sacrifices as the Lord is the Temple. (Rev. 21: 22) Probably best to deal with those points before we go on. Marilyn. Hello again Marilyn, I don't see the sea as being literal in Zechariah, and the reason for that is because I think the detail here is about the division applied in chapter 14, everything is in half. First, look at what was said at the conclusion of chapter 13. Zechariah 13:8 In the whole land,” declares the Lord, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. 9 This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’” In the above passage, Zechariah says that only one third will be left, this is the remnant spoken of by Isaiah and later recalled by Paul in Romans. In chapter 14, which follows the above, we see this. Zechariah 14:2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Only one of the above can be true, the other is a symbolic reference, and not literal. The reason I conclude that Zechariah is providing the symbolic reference in regards to the halves. Zechariah continues to refer to divisions in halves throughout chapter 14, the mountain is split in half, and the living water is split in half. Everything in chapter 14 is in half, this to me is a clear indication that the half is symbolic in nature. I have no doubt the mount of Olives is literally going to fall, we see that in Revelation, and I suspect this coincides with the great earthquake that will hit Jerusalem. I also understand from scripture that this is where Jesus will set down, just as He said, which was confirmation of what Zechariah said. Of course, the Jews don't know what Jesus said, because they don't accept the New Testament, only we do. I'm not sure what you see when you read Zechariah, so I'll tell you a few things I see, and then you can respond. Zechariah reveals in the prophetic passages events that are from Revelation, for example, chapter 4 is in regards to the two witnesses. Chapter 5 is discussing events from Revelation as well, as does chapter 6. In other words, throughout the entire book, Zechariah includes two basic lines of prophecies. One that points the Jews to the true identity of their Messiah, and one that discusses the end times and the events John would describe in greater detail. The key thing to remember is, that the Jews do not recognize who Jesus is, and they do not have the book of Revelation. The Lord gives them what they need, and when the time comes, they will begin to put this together based on their holy book, not ours. However, they are given different instructions than we are. They are told to flee, while we are told to stand. The reason is simple, they are still seeking Him, we are not. The second thing you pointed to in Zechariah was the plague. The plague is not that difficult to understand, those who end up as the goats receive an eternal plague, for not coming to Him. The third thing you pointed to in Zechariah, is really at the heart of why I cannot accept what you present, I'll post the comment below and then respond. First, I would say Christ's sacrifice was not a life for a life, it was His life for all lives. This was the bridge to connect the divide from God, the defeat of sin, the conquering of death. Second, I would say I don't need to kill and burn a bunch of animals to learn what His sacrifice meant. I never have to this point, have you? Just present this idea to the Holy Spirit within you, ask Him if He feels like killing and burning some animals. I am certain that the notion will be rejected. This goes hand in hand with the idea that there is any vulnerability in Jesus. You suggested that the enemy can invade His city, during His reign, and take half of His people. Your reasoning was because Jesus will be in heaven. Even if I agreed with you that He was reigning from heaven, does that matter? He knows all, including the thoughts clattering about in the minds of the wicked. There is no such thing as a "sneak attack" on the Lord, He knows the end from the beginning. There is absolutely nothing in scripture to support the idea that the Lord has a vulnerability. This entire line of thinking is flawed when you apply what you already know, the enemy cannot touch Him. Even when He came as a man, the enemy could not touch Him. He gave His life willingly, they could not take even His natural life if He had not been willing to lay it down. No one killed Him, He sacrificed Himself, for everyone. He told us this Himself. No plan and no enemy will ever succeed in any assault on Him or His kingdom. Asking me to believe this is plausible is essentially telling me that everything I believe in is false, and I know better, and I know you do as well. Again, I want to reiterate that I am responding to how I understand what you are presenting, and the problems I see with it scripturally. I look forward to your response, God bless you.

Exactly salty This is precisely what Daniel saw as well, and speaks to the millenium only being a day. A resurrection of the living at the start of the day, and a resurrection of the dead at the conclusion of the day. Um... might want to look again, that John 5:28-29 Scripture by our Lord Jesus is not revealing a resurrection of the wicked at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign. He is declaring that "resurrection of damnation" on the day of His return, which is also the day He gathers His Church. If you hold to man's pre-trib rapture theory, I suspect you'll probably continue to disregard that John 5:28-29 Scripture as others do here. I don't hold to a pre-trib theory, and that scripture aligns with precisely what I see. If I understood some of your previous posts correctly, where we differ appears to be the length of the millenium, and whether or not there is a new heaven and new earth. I don't disregard any scripture. I do disagree that this is not at the end of the millenium, in fact, if you look at what it says specifically, you see this is the resurrection of the rest of the dead John speaks of in Revelation 20. They will be judged on, "what they have done." These are those who died outside His grace, both groups, which we see illustrated in the parables from Matthew 25. God bless you.

Hello again Marilyn, You are welcome, and I meant every word. However, I didn't say you had the pieces in the wrong order, just that you weren't connecting them What I mean of course, is that we see specifically in Revelation where God is with us, and we see that exact symbolic reference at the conclusion of Zechariah and you don't want to connect them together. Along with the the horses and kitchen pottery, plus the living water, all of which point to New Jerusalem per Revelation, this is pretty concrete evidence. Also, John connects New Jerusalem to the bride. I understand that scripture establishes the church is part of the bride as well, which in no way conflicts with what John says here. All who enter New Jerusalem are part of the bride. Revelation 21: 9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. The marriage supper therefore comes at the end, it is the symbol of a marriage supper to us, because we have the New Testament. It is the symbol of the Feast of Tabernacles to the unbelieving Jews, because they only have the Old Testament. As of right now, they still wouldn't understand the symbolism and would do the rituals from Numbers, but we know better. They will still be practicing these things for roughly half of the seven years, we will not. When the Jewish people that are part of His elect see what Daniel spoke of, and what they were warned of through the prophets, they will flee. It is through the Old Testament prophets that they will begin to understand. They will understand that they missed His first coming. Then they will seek their Messiah. Revelation 12 tells us that the woman is out of the serpent's reach. The woman represents the Jewish remnant Zechariah speaks of, those who will seek Him, or part of His elect. They have 3 1/2 years for this, it is during the final 3 1/2 years because we know that during the first 3 1/2 years they will have their temple. We see them sealed on their foreheads by God, and we see that they are protected from Satan during this time. We see that Hosea says they will be taken aside and the Lord will speak to them tenderly, and we see this same event in Isaiah 65. The Jews are not the ones getting beheaded during the mark of the beast. What do we know of the group who is getting beheaded? They keep God's commandments and hold fast to their testimony in Jesus. That means this group consists of believers, all of them. We are the only group that fits the description, the New Testament is in our bible, Jesus is our Lord and Savior. The letter to the church in Smyrna makes it clear they are going nowhere, and that Satan will put some of them in prison and kill them. They are told not to be afraid of what they are about to suffer. Not one grievance mentioned by the Lord in regards to this church, and it is a church. This church is right in the path of the beast, which means this applies to all of the churches. Revelation 13:9 Whoever has ears, let them hear. 10 “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed.” This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. The reason we see the Lord illustrate in Hosea that He will take back the Jews as His wife, is because they are part of the bride, part of the body. There is only one bride He is going to marry, and that bride represents all of His sheep. We mustn't forget that we were grafted in, not the Jews, what you suggest reverses that order. If there is more than one wedding supper, then there is more than one bride, and that directly contradicts scripture. So I cannot accept this for that reason. The marriage supper is symbolic of eternity, I see this in scripture, it is the very centerpiece of that puzzle analogy we discussed earlier, along with all of those things we see attributed to it through New Jerusalem. All prophecy is symbolic in nature, why would Zechariah be any different? Earlier you had asked specifically about the rain, and we saw that this was attached to Egypt. Anyway, as I was reading a passage in Revelation 11, this stood out to me, so I wanted to run this by you as well. Revelation 11:5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. 7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. In this passage, we see that the two witnesses control the rain at this time, but what I want you to look at is the reference to Sodom and Egypt. Both of these are well known to most I suspect, and I am sure they are for you. Egypt we know on account of the ten plagues, and Sodom for the fire from heaven that God destroyed it with. Both are symbolic of sin and judgement throughout scripture. They are also brought together in the book of Jude. Jude 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. First Jude begins by warning us that the enemy slipped in among us, which is why I appeal to everyone that they consider where some of these doctrine's of men need to be examined closely. Particularly any that suggest going back before the cross. Jude 1:5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude makes this all very clear here in this passage, Egypt serves as an example because we see the exact same plagues they faced in Exodus happening on a global scale in Revelation. Sodom serves as an example of the coming judgement by fire, and what happens to all those opposed to God in the end. And later on, he says this about the wicked. Jude 1:12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever. They are clouds without rain. It would appear to me that the rain Zechariah spoke of is symbolic of the separation between the sheep and the goats. This also coincides with the timing established by all the other symbolic references. I look forward to your response, God bless you.

Exactly salty This is precisely what Daniel saw as well, and speaks to the millenium only being a day. A resurrection of the living at the start of the day, and a resurrection of the dead at the conclusion of the day.

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should. God bless you.

Hello again Marilyn, You are a blessing, and your knowledge of scripture is as well. What I want to point out to you, is that you have the correct pieces, but you are not putting them together. First, I just want to clarify that I do not see this as judgement, sorry if I gave you that impression. The feast of trumpets and the day of atonement is what I see as judgement, the three festivals go together. Above we see a time of rejoicing for all people, kinda like a wedding supper? We see God with us. When does this happen? Revelation 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” Zechariah is pointing to the very end, he uses symbolism to do so. The red letters above tell you precisely when this happens. You see the same thing I do, you are just not connecting them. This is the same reason horses and kitchen pottery are said to be sacred, these are things that will not take place until it is done. Everything that enters into God the Father's presence must be imperishable. I am not picking and choosing these symbols, they are apparent when you understand the purpose. What was the purpose of Jesus? When we understand the purpose, we should know that animal sacrifice is not coming back, correct? The unchanging purpose of God ultimately includes no more death, animals as well as people. When the Jews rebuild the temple and start their sacrifices again, are they saved? No. You know these things as well as I do. God bless you sister.

Hello again Marilyn, I'm not picking them, I am just looking at what was given. Living water is attached to New Jerusalem by scripture, the fact that Jesus was the one acceptable sacrifice made for all is scriptural. Re-instituting animal sacrifice does not even begin to compute with me. The fact that Holy to the Lord was inscribed on the priests turbans is scriptural (Exodus 28:36), Zechariah saying that this would be done on horses and kitchen pottery is scriptural. I am taking what I know in scripture, and what I know of Him, and applying it across the board. When something like the Feast of Tabernacles cannot be taken literally, I am left with only one alternative. When it is suggested that a city He reigns from can be overtaken by the enemy, I am left with only one alternative. There is no way, under any circumstance, that meaningless animal sacrifices will be held at His request, and there is no way, under any circumstance, that any enemy will ever overtake any kingdom of His. They speak against the very heart of the message in scripture. God bless you.

Hello again Ranger, Sorry for the delay in response, my schedule has been pretty full, and yesterday I sat down to reply but discovered I didn't feel too well, so I will give this another shot today. I didn't mean step away from the first discussion altogether, I meant just for a moment to see if we can resolve the chronology issue. However, if you wish to continue with it then that is okay with me. So I'll start there and present you with your own scenario you used in a response to another member, which I agree with your methodology, but don't see you applying it consistently. To paraphrase you, what you illustrated was that you have to learn lesson 1 before you advance to the next. Once you get to lesson 10, you already know what you covered to get there. The resurrection of Jesus was a given already, Revelation was the last book written and it deals with a very specific period of time. Paul covers this in I Corinthians 15, everything we need to know about the resurrection to a glorified body is spoken of in that chapter. Beginning with the resurrection of Jesus (verses 1-11), then the resurrection of the dead (verses 12-34), concluding with the resurrection body (verses 35-58). In the section concerning the resurrection of the dead is a very important passage. I Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Apply what we have learned from scripture to this passage. Who belongs to Him? His sheep. And He will gather them when He comes. There was the resurrection of Christ, and there will be this resurrection spoken of here. You only have one choice, Christ is the firstfruits, and when He comes it will be the turn for His sheep. This doesn't allow for your extra two resurrections. In the final section of the chapter, Paul makes it clear that this resurrection he has been discussing, is to a glorified body. I Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. So again, we already know that everyone dies a natural death. Therefore, when I say that those three groups of people in Revelation 20 are dead, I am referring to the natural death that we all must face. The first two groups are both dead, or they wouldn't be in heaven, and group three is called "the rest of the dead", so obviously they are dead. Believers do not face spiritual death, we are covered by the blood of Jesus. Our sins are removed as far as the east is from the west, we are not subject to the judgement of the dead, or to the second death. We will come to life and reign with Him during the millenium. All of these attributes are given to the first two groups John discusses in Revelation 20. Paul goes on to make it clear, only those clothed in the imperishable (glorified body) can inherit the eternal promise. I Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. Paul also makes it clear that we will all be changed at the same time to this glorified body. Not everyone will sleep, but all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. All means those sleeping, and those awake, or, those dead and those alive. This is the first resurrection John speaks of. There are only two turns according to Paul, 1) Jesus Christ; 2) when He comes, His sheep. So before we get to Revelation, we are supposed to know all these things. In other words, lesson 1 in the New Testament is the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you don't know that, Revelation will never be understandable. All of scripture factors into this, everything we have learned from whenever we first heard the message. This principle has to be applied consistently in order to arrive at the truth, not just when it supports a theory. Does the church and scripture not teach that we will reign with Him during the millenium? For me the answer is yes, if it is the same for you then that places you in one of those two groups John sees in Revelation 20 at the first resurrection. Those with the authority to judge, and those who had been beheaded. They come to life (receive their glorified bodies) and reign with Him. Believers will judge the angels, Paul says that in I Corinthians as well. Both of those groups are believers, they reign with Him. And His rule is done with an iron scepter. The group referred to as the rest of the dead will face judgement, they are not covered by His grace. They will not wake until after the millenium. They represent the first parable in Matthew 25, and I believe the second parable is in regards to the angels being judged. Once the sheep and goats are divided following these two judgements, we usher in the eternal age. Scripture does not call it the second resurrection, I agree. However, you just correctly acknowledged in your statement that it is a resurrection. Since it follows the first in sequence, that would make it the second. It is notably different though, which is because not all of these people will receive a glorified body as depicted in the parable from Matthew 25. Paul clearly says that there is only one event like this that follows the resurrection of Christ, and he makes it clear that it is when He comes. There is nothing in scripture about Him stopping, going back, and coming at a later time. John clearly distinguishes between two different groups in Revelation 20. He saw those with the authority to judge, and those who had been beheaded. And is the key word there, that is basic English, we all learned this in grade school. I think we all agree that the second group comes out of the tribulation based on what the passage says. And in this same letter to the Corinthian church, Paul indicated in the form of a question that believers would judge the angels. There is no mystery to the identity of these two groups, and as Paul clearly wrote in the passage we already looked at, there is only one resurrection involving the dead and living receiving their glorified bodies together. Then there will be one for "the rest of the dead" after the millenium. In regards to the scripture I posted from chapter 11, following the seventh trumpet. It appears you are trying to explain this away by downplaying the importance of what was said, because it was something John heard as opposed to something he saw. There are no mistakes in scripture, it is there because God instructed John to put it there. Everything he heard was as a result of the 7th trumpet sounding, this is why they are speaking. Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” 19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. The very first thing said is that His reign has come. That means His coming, and the first resurrection have occurred. Those who take part in the first resurrection come to life and reign with Him, so these are established facts right there, following the 7th trumpet being sounded. Then the 24 elders confirm the above when they begin speaking. 1. His reign has come. 2. His wrath has come. 3. The time to judge the dead has come. (post millenium, this is "the rest of the dead" John speaks of in Rev. 20. 4. The time has come to reward the prophets. (post millenium, and note that the prophets are rewarded before the church, those would be Jews, just as Paul wrote in Romans several times; first for the Jew, then for the Gentile). 5. The time has come to reward everyone else. 6. Then comes the unfortunate conclusion for many. (also post millenium, this is when the weeping and gnashing of teeth takes place.) None of this can be downplayed in importance because it was spoken rather than seen. This is what follows the sounding of the 7th trumpet, and all those major catastrophes that look the same, are the same, because this happens very quickly, just as Isaiah prophesied. And Revelation is simply not chronological, this one trumpet judgement alone makes that clear. This style is not unique, I already illustrated that we have seen this in Genesis. We see a general story, and then we get more detailed accounts of certain events within that same story. You see the same thing based on your response, but still argue chronology. When both male and female exist in chapter 1, but at the start of chapter 2 there is only male, that is not chronological. It is a detailed account of a larger story. This is also clearly illustrated by the opening of the 6th seal, which occurs in Rev. 6. The sun goes black, the moon blood red, and no more stars. First off, this is precisely the conditions Zechariah describes in chapter 14, which is also discussing the very end. So to accept this as chronological, you have to explain how the sun can be black from chapter 6 until the very end, along with all the stars having fallen, and the moon blood red, and these events follow. Revelation 8:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— The stars fell from the sky two chapters ago, and since all stars are in the sky, that means they all fell two chapters ago, this one doesn't exist chronologically. Revelation 8:12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night. The sun went black, the moon went blood red, and all the stars fell from the sky 2 chapters ago, none of this can happen chronologically. Revelation 9:9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. Again, all the stars fell 3 chapters ago, so this can't happen chronologically. Revelation 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. The sun went black ten chapters ago, so this can't happen chronologically. Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. Again, the sun went black, the moon blood red, and all the stars fell from the sky ten chapters ago, the whole world was in darkness from this point on, so this can't happen chronologically. What you will notice about all of these examples, is that they occur in a number less than 6, and it is the opening of the 6th seal in which the sun is blackened, the moon turns blood red, and all the stars in the sky fall. The reason the measurement of one-third comes up so often, is to illustrate that you are seeing one-third of what is occurring. 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 bowls.....three separate viewpoints, each representing one-third of the total picture. We are only given a specific length of time during the fifth trumpet, where we are told this judgement lasts 5 months. The exact sequence and the timing allotted will vary on the others, all according to His plan. But we do know one part of that plan is a fast finish according to Isaiah. This is what the 6th and 7th judgements display. This is all much simpler than the mess men have created with this. Your arguments are ultimately based on debating words like "first", and taking something spoken as slightly diminished. It isn't that it was spoken, it is why it was spoken. The sounding of the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet in the book. There are many things throughout scripture that hold both a literal and symbolic meaning, this is displayed throughout Revelation. I think everything is clarified when you examine who represents the characters within some of the more detailed stories. When it comes to Revelation 20, John distinguishes between two groups of people in that first resurrection. Another way to say what he says in that verse is this, I rode by a farm and saw some horses in the pasture, and then I saw some horses without heads. There is a difference between those two groups that is obvious. The enemy wages war against the saints right after he rises from the fatal head wound, this is how he desecrates the temple. The abomination that makes desolate is the mockery of Jesus and what was done at the cross, and three days after it. Satan's unholy alliance is the mockery of the trinity, he places himself as the father, the beast as the son, and the false prophet as his unholy spirit. This is why they don't face judgement, they all three go immediately into the lake of fire when God is finished with them. Keep in mind also what the prophets Hosea and Isaiah foretold, clearly pointing to a time in the future that the Jews would be taken aside. Revelation 12 establishes that the woman is protected from Satan, all of this indicates the Jews who will accept Jesus are not exposed to what happens those last three and a half years. We also know that Jerusalem is given over to the Gentiles for the last three and a half years, more confirmation that they do as the prophets said they would. The qualifications to be the offspring eliminates all unbelievers from representing this group. There is only one choice here as well. The church represents the believers, we are the only ones who hold to the New Testament. This is the same mystery Paul refers to in I Corinthians 15, what is the number one question being asked in the OP, when is He coming? Everything we have been discussing all revolves around this mystery. And don't forget, Revelation is a prophecy, it would be included in that declaration from chapter 10. What follows the sounding of the 7th trumpet confirms it. Also we can look to chapter 18 of Revelation, which deals with the Fall of Babylon. Look how it begins. Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “‘Come out of her, my people,’ so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;" This is at the beginning of a very specific day and hour, which is precisely what Jesus responded with to the disciples asking about His coming. We see this throughout the chapter. And also note that in verse 6 John heard that Babylon was to receive a double portion, and throughout the chapter you always see, "Woe, woe." A double portion, or two woes. Revelation 18:8 Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her. Revelation 18:10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’ Revelation 18:17 In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’ Revelation 18:19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’ It begins discussing this very specific day, and then emphasizes this very specific hour. It is not a subtle point being made here. What follows in chapter 19 is the conclusion of chapter 18, and says the wedding has come. This also points directly to New Jerusalem, which John attaches to the bride in Revelation 21. All roads lead to the same place, and they indicate a much different scenario than what the pre-trib doctrine teaches. It really begins with letting go of the chronology issue, I simply cannot accept the suggestion that I disregard what is said after the 7th trumpet, or what Jesus said Himself. As always, I am not wanting to attribute anything to you personally, I am just responding to the scenario you are presenting to me, and why I take issue with it as I understand it. And as far as chronology goes, I have never accepted this book as chronological, and I never will. It is abundantly clear to me that it is not. I did not accept it as chronological when I believed the pre-trib theory, that is just not something I can forget. I understand this is not well received, it is not the way I prefer, but it is not up to us. I look forward to your response, God bless you.

Hello Marilyn, Sorry to intrude in this conversation, but the simple answer to your question is this. To go out and preach the gospel to every tongue and nation. And rather than thinking of this group as "the church", think of them as believers.

Hi wingnut, Now I have read all your notes but will just reply to this point for now. What symbols do you see in this passage in Zech. 14? Also, where does God indicate that this passage is symbolic? Marilyn. Hello again Marilyn, The living water is symbolic, the reference to light in the evening is symbolic, saying that horses and kitchen pottery will have "Holy to the Lord" inscribed on them is symbolic, the Feast of Tabernacles is symbolic. Those are some of the examples. As far as where God indicates them being symbolic, I think the Feast of Tabernacles is the clearest example. I explained why in the previous post. God bless you.

Hello again Judith, I just wanted to point this out to you, and if you could please explain then how this piece fits with your scenario. Revelation 10:5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” When the 7th trumpet is about to sound, the mystery of God will be accomplished. God bless you.

Hello again Ranger, There are a few things in your post that I want to discuss with you. To begin with, let's step away from the debate about first and from this point just understand when I say first resurrection I am simply referring to what John describes in Revelation 20. I think if we center on the events that we agree only occur one time we can make some progression. By that I mean things such as, the dead being judged, or the New Jerusalem, just to give a few examples. In Revelation 11, we see the 24 elders speaking in regards to the 7th trumpet being sounded, that is where they state that the "time has come for judging the dead." Again, that is at your midway point, yet the dead are not raised until the thousand years have ended according to John in Revelation 20. Then take that and look at what is said here in chapter 10. Revelation 10:5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” Again, this is at your midway point. How can the mystery of God be accomplished when we are only halfway through this? You also stated that no other book in the bible is not written chronologically, this is not the case, let us go back to the beginning. Genesis 1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. When we arrive in chapter 2, we only have Adam, no Eve. It is in chapter 2 we see Eve created. That is not chronological. I suppose that comes down to whether one sees the Genesis account as literal, which I do. If you do not then this may not matter to you, but that is my understanding. I look forward to your response my friend, God bless you.

First, I do not deny the Kingdom. However, scripture gives us the strong indication that the millenium is only a day based on the verse from II Peter. II Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. Can you explain why this one thing is important to remember regarding the day of the Lord? Secondly, I do understand your frustration, although I do not understand how ceasing discussions benefits anyone. We are working with the same bible, and I really think what separates us from coming together is the issue of chronology. So I would appreciate it if you could at least respond to the scripture I offered you in regards to the dead being judged. Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophetsand your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. This only happens once by my understanding of scripture, do you have an explanation for this? I appreciate you indulging me in this conversation, and do hope you will reconsider continuing, or at the very least a response to the above two inquiries. As for anything you have offered in scripture, I read every word and passage you have offered. I may not have responded to each one, but I always take what my brothers and sisters offer me in regards to scripture and examine it. In regards to what you offered towards the argument over whether first means first, none of what you offered to me says what you expressed to me. I do apologize for only responding to the first offering, not because I did not read all of them, but because I do not understand them in the way you are applying them. God bless you. Not sure if this will come through, as I have had several posts in the last day not go through, which I will attribute to the tablet. In regards to the usage of protos, I'm not sure how my post doesn't make the view presented clear. I gave examples of its usage where a sequential meaning is impossible, and combined with the fact that we already know that, at the least, the Lord"s resurrection is the first in sequence of time, and that it makes little sense to have the Two Witnesses resurrected at the end ( because he is empowered for forty two months yet no man can hurt them), then we have to consider ''first'' as not meaning first in a series. Also, we differ in regards to the thousand years which establishes that the dead do not rise at that time which again distinguishes this resurrection from the foundational teaching of one resurrection on the last day. It is not a matter of frustration in regards to your view, it is simply acknowledging that if an antagonist will not address a point or issue and continues with same arguments, then we are spinning our wheels. This is true on several key points. You say you don't deny the Kingdom (and I will clarify the thousand year physical Kingdom, not generally speaking, as I said, your salvation and sincerity is not questioned), then immediately say it is only a day based on correlating Peter's statement, which effectively denies the thousand years. This denies a clear statement in Revelation which is also reiterated by the fact that the first resurrection is simply not the same resurrection which follows and takes place at the Great White Throne. And I will stop there because several responses I have done have not gone through and with the distractions on my end I don't want to either waste time hunting and pecking on this tablet or do a longer post which won't go through anyway, lol. God bless. Hello again Ranger, Thanks for the response. I want to say, I think maybe you misunderstood my position regarding the passage in Revelation 20. I am unclear as to what you are saying in regards to this, but it appears you are taking this passage to say that the first resurrection occurs after the millenium, which it does not. There are three different groups spoken of in this passage. Those with the authority to judge, and those who had been beheaded are the first resurrection, this occurs prior to the millenium. These two groups come to life and reign with Him during the thousand years. The third group is the rest of the dead, meaning those who died outside His grace. This group is resurrected after the thousand years, this is when the Great White Throne judgement takes place, this is the judging of the dead. I also meant to clarify before, my position on this most closely resembles what people call "pre-wrath". I don't care much for the name it was given, but I think that is because of the references within scripture that say the wrath of the Lamb. All of that takes place after where this position places the rapture. What I know of the a-mil position is not what I believe, but perhaps we have a different understanding of the a-mil position. I see that you mentioned the scripture that I asked you about in regards to the judging of the dead and the chronology question, but I was hoping perhaps you could try explaining this in another way. I don't understand what you are saying in your response. I guess the most important question I have regarding this is, do you think the dead are judged more than once? I look forward to your response brother, and I'm sorry you are having issues with your tablet. I face similar struggles with this ancient computer I am using, so I sympathize with you on that, God bless you.

Hello again dear sister, I see that you sorted out the quote function, and it would appear you are better at it than me Perhaps you can shoot me another e-mail telling me how to get the time and date stamp on there I am enjoying chatting with you also, as well as the others I am chatting with, and I appreciate and value everyone's input. We may not resolve anything, but I believe that any circumstance scripture is being discussed is profitable. I am sure we all agree on that. As always, I will start at the top and work my way down. 1. FIRST. That is a good point there, wingnut. `let`s place them in the group with the authority to judge.` Would you like to expound on that? Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. There are two groups of people John places in the first resurrection, those who had been given authority to judge, and those who had been beheaded. If we look at those who had been beheaded as strictly coming from the great tribulation, we have accounted for this group. According to scripture, those with the authority to judge represents the church. So, present day saints who are being killed, and anyone who has passed on of natural causes account for this group. The point is, they are resurrected together. Both groups receive their glorified bodies here, at the first resurrection. They come to life and reign with Christ for the thousand years. The book of Revelation deals with a very specific time, the end times. John had already written the gospel according to him, and three more books, in which he clearly establishes that Jesus was resurrected. He even touches on that again in the beginning of Revelation, there is no question this is an established fact with him. To understand Revelation, one must have an understanding of scripture as a whole. Which is to say, John is not repeating a lesson here, he is not dealing with the past, he is addressing this specific time in the future. Now, if a person were to be in a plane crash that left them suffering from amnesia, so that they were basically working with a clean slate. Say this person washed up on some vacant island, and the only thing they find on the beach is a bible. I believe that person can come to a complete understanding of scripture with the Holy Spirit as their guide. They don't need to know Greek or Syrian Aramaic to understand it, God's Word speaks for itself. So the argument concerning words from the original text rings hollow to me. What it does in essence, is tell people that if they are not fluent in the original language these texts were written, they cannot understand the bible. I respectfully reject this line of thinking on that basis. That being said, I am aware of protos and what it means. I think however, what you are overlooking is the fact that protos means foremost, in time, place, and order of importance. Revelation is dealing with a specific time. Well, the problem with that answer is this. I already know that time for us is not the same as time with God. Peter is saying this in direct reference to the day of the Lord, so why is this important to remember regarding this specific time? The other problem is this. The Old Testament prophets for the most part refer to this as a day, scripturally speaking there are far more references to this being a day than there are to it being a thousand years. Yes, and He does say all of the above in the passage from Isaiah 65:17-19. Isaiah is chronological, everything that follows this passage is talking about eternity. Isaiah 65:18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. The but is speaking to our attitude towards what He will create, and He follows that by saying "I will create Jerusalem." Present day Jerusalem already exists, He is speaking of the New Jerusalem, the place He went to prepare for us. The passages that follow this are the imagery, we will not die, He is saying that 100 years is nothing to those who enter into what He has prepared. He then expresses how awful that will be for those who will not enter, those who do not belong to Him. Verse 18 says, but be glad and rejoice forever, forever is eternal, no death. Everything in this passage of Isaiah aligns with everything from the passage you posted from Revelation. Zechariah chapter 14 is probably the most highly debated chapter in the entire bible. I remember when I attended Liberty that the different professors we studied under did not see eye to eye on this at all. The reason I remember that is because several of them got into a highly contested debate on the matter lol. At any rate, some see this as a result of nuclear fallout, based on things like people rotting on their feet, a day without light or cold, the mountain splitting in two. At that time, this struck me as a plausible explanation. Now I see this more from the opposing perspective, and I believe that the majority of what Zechariah describes are symbolic references. The reason I see this as symbolic is quite simple, first, because this chapter is full of symbolism, and second, following Jesus these types of sacrifices were useless. So to start, we look to Numbers 29 to get a bearing on what this is. It really begins on the first day of the seventh month with the feast of trumpets. The offerings for all of these events were to be made by fire, and this speaks to the judgement which is taking place in the end times, when the earth is cleansed by fire. On the tenth day of the seventh month was the day of atonement. On the fifteenth day of the seventh month was the Feast of Tabernacles, this festival was originally said to be 7 days, this according to the Lord from Numbers 29:12. Starting with the first day, the only difference in the offering from day to day was that each day one less bull was offered than the previous. But when we get to the conclusion of the seventh day, we find there is an eighth day, which is a bit odd. The offering is also different, only one bull, one ram, and 7 male lambs. As I said, I see no circumstance under which these meaningless sacrifices would be re-instituted by Jesus, who was the spotless sacrifice made for all. To me, this is a symbolic reference that points to the judgement of the dead, who will be judged by the manner in which they lived their lives as illustrated in Matthew 25. So to me, this is how I understand it. Feast of trumpets is symbolic of the sounding of the 7th trumpet which marks His coming, the Day of Atonement would be symbolic of the Day of the Lord (or millenium if you prefer), and the Feast of Tabernacles is symbolic of the judgement of the dead, which will take place following the 7th day. This could account for the extra day we see at the end of the Feast of Tabernacles. As I have openly admitted prior to this, I do not have my complete puzzle, there are still pieces I am looking for. They are in His Word somewhere though, of that I am certain. That is precisely why I see discussing these things as important, regardless of the viewpoint, because others offer me scripture that often include a piece I am looking for. So to answer your question, I have not yet discovered what the rain symbolizes. As for the plague which strikes those who do not come up for this event, I believe that speaks to eternal punishment based on the description in Zechariah 14:12. It is also important to keep this in mind, the priests and the temple were separate and more holy than the rest of Israel. In Exodus 28:36 Holy to the Lord was inscribed on the priests turbans to symbolize this. Zechariah prophesied that in the end, this would be inscribed on horses, as well as ordinary pottery, making items like this as sacred as the holy sacramental vessels. Which is basically saying, everything will be sacred. This points directly at the New Jerusalem. Living water and water of life mean the exact same thing, the order of the words do not change the meaning. To me the two cannot be separated, they speak to the New Jerusalem. Rev. 22 also states that the river of life flows from the throne of God and of the Lamb, down the middle of the great street of the city, which is the same thing Zechariah is describing, dividing east and west. In Revelation 6:12-13 we see the sun turns black, the moon turns blood red, and the stars fall to the earth. At no point are we told that they are restored, and Zechariah confirms this exact same condition, referring to it as frosty darkness, with no distinction between day and night. The only light from that point on will be from the Lord Himself, and this carries over with the New Jerusalem. Revelation 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. As for the animal kingdom, I worded my original statement poorly. I can see why you would take that to mean completely gone, which is not at all what I intended, and I do apologize. What I should have said is that the animal kingdom will be greatly depleted. The main problem for animals will be finding water, for food they can simply eat people. This of course will be more difficult for smaller animals, but larger beasts will not find getting food so difficult, water will be the animals main issue with survival. No disrespect taken, however I think you overlooked the passage regarding the battle in detail. As shown in the scripture you posted above, all three are accounted for when they begin gathering their army. This was how I began my illustration of these events, the drying up of the river makes the way for them. Following that, I showed the passages from Rev. 9:13-21 and compared the participants to the battle depicted in Rev. 19:11-21. Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Note the underlined parts above, and if you read this battle in its entirety, you see no mention of the dragon. That is because the dragon was seized and bound, locked into the Abyss until the final battle at Armageddon, this most likely occurs just as the first battle is about to begin. The beast and the false prophet go into the lake of fire following the first battle. This was on their way to Armageddon, somewhere in the vicinity of the Euphrates river which was dried up for them to cross. The Euphrates is over 300 miles to the northeast of Jerusalem, while Megiddo is roughly 60 miles to the north, and a few clicks to the west of Jerusalem. The battle of Armageddon has Satan leading the remaining enemies of God, no beast, no false prophet. They have already been disposed of. There is something else notable about the imagery throughout scripture when it comes to these battles in the end. We call them battles, but really they are not going to be much of a battle, not the way we think of battles. We see Jesus described as using the sword from His mouth, or fire from His mouth. The sword of course is a reference to the Word of God (also the bible), and the fact that everything comes from His mouth indicates to me that He will simply speak scripture at them and they will be toast. Remember what Jesus said before He was crucified, they could not take His life, He gave it freely. If He hadn't been willing to give His life, He could have called on legions of angels. The enemy cannot touch Him, no one can touch Him. He is our rock, our refuge in times of trouble, our stronghold. Therein lays the problem with the literal one thousand years. For starters, Isaiah says that this will happen quickly. Considering that destroying the enemy is as easy as speaking for Him, this makes perfect sense. Then we have what you are proposing from Zechariah. If Jesus has a kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as His city for a thousand years, how does an enemy that cannot stand against Him; invade His city, plunder His city, take half of His people out of the city, not to mention the other terrible atrocities Zechariah speaks of? If this were even remotely possible, then what happened to our rock, our refuge, and our stronghold? This is one of the many reasons I no longer believe the thousand years is literal. Not to mention Jesus also says, His kingdom is not of this earth. Also, in the above segment you referred to as B) enroute; you stated that the events in Revelation 9:13-21 are caused by this army marching on Jerusalem. That is not the case at all, the passage states that the four angels kill a third of mankind. Then it discusses the mounted troops of two hundred million, describes them and the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that they produce, and also states that these plagues kill a third of mankind. This is not the enemies army, they are the ones being killed, the mounted troops are the good guys. Just a few things for your consideration, I look forward to your reply, God bless you.

welcome to worthy

Hello again Enoch, I would be more than happy to continue our conversation, provided you stick to the guidelines. However, our conversation ended at the discussion of the identity of the bride, and the issue of chronology. Until you address what I have already presented to you and display how it is reconciled to your position, I cannot accept your conclusions. So here it is again, right where we left off. Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; You have not refuted this even once, much less three times, please address this passage, particularly the underlined areas. The symbol you have of who makes up the bride, is incorrect. Your theory that Revelation is chronological falls apart as well, but the verse says what it says. John ties the bride to New Jerusalem symbolically right here, your argument is with scripture, not with me. A modern way to say this same thing is: Little Tommy says to little Billy, "Come here, let me show you the best present I ever got." And he showed little Billy his brand new set of Lego's. You are trying to argue that the best present Tommy ever got was Lincoln Logs. I cannot accept your scenario on the basis of scripture, or (to borrow your words to me) a "Violation of Logic." If you can reconcile the above passage from Revelation with your scenario, please do so. God bless.

First, I do not deny the Kingdom. However, scripture gives us the strong indication that the millenium is only a day based on the verse from II Peter. II Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. Can you explain why this one thing is important to remember regarding the day of the Lord? Secondly, I do understand your frustration, although I do not understand how ceasing discussions benefits anyone. We are working with the same bible, and I really think what separates us from coming together is the issue of chronology. So I would appreciate it if you could at least respond to the scripture I offered you in regards to the dead being judged. Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. This only happens once by my understanding of scripture, do you have an explanation for this? I appreciate you indulging me in this conversation, and do hope you will reconsider continuing, or at the very least a response to the above two inquiries. As for anything you have offered in scripture, I read every word and passage you have offered. I may not have responded to each one, but I always take what my brothers and sisters offer me in regards to scripture and examine it. In regards to what you offered towards the argument over whether first means first, none of what you offered to me says what you expressed to me. I do apologize for only responding to the first offering, not because I did not read all of them, but because I do not understand them in the way you are applying them. God bless you.

Hello again Marilyn, No worries about the quote function, you just post whatever you need to however you need to. I understand what you are saying in the above, but I think you are missing the point. So let me say this another way. Now, let's take that group we are discussing, present day saints who are being killed, and rather than place them in the group that has been beheaded, let us place them in the group with the authority to judge. So now, the group that has been beheaded only consists of those from within the tribulation, correct? These two groups are still resurrected together, in the first resurrection. People from before, and people during, resurrected together. The dead in Christ rise first according to scripture. I hope that helps. Marilyn, before he says that he says this, "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:" The entire chapter is dedicated to the day of the Lord, so this is speaking about the end times, and he says not to forget this one thing. Please explain how this one thing is important for us to remember? First, notice what this passage says at the beginning, "Behold, I create..." Second, it follows this. Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. The Lord is providing us with imagery of what eternity will be. So how does one who always was explain something never ending to people that only understand temporal things? He does this using examples from what we do understand. Those verses are not saying that we will die, it is explaining that 100 years is a blink for the eternal. The fact that you cannot overlook, is that these things follow the creation of the new heaven and earth, any way you slice it that is post-millenium. Zechariah 14 begins with this. Zechariah 14 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls. 2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. The nations gather together in Revelation 16:16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place in Hebrew that is called Armageddon. Zechariah 14:6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light. 8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter. 9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name. Now, what were the signs Jesus gave to the disciples regarding His coming. Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ No sunlight, no moonlight, no stars = no distinction between day and night. This should shed some light on what Jesus meant when He said every eye will see Him coming. They will see Him coming because He will be the only light. This is why Zechariah says that come evening there will be light. What you propose here is this. For one thousand years we will reside on a planet that has been destroyed, there is no sunlight, no moonlight, no starlight. There is no drinkable water, there is nothing green left; plants, trees, etc. First, without the sun nothing will grow, plants and trees will not grow without this. So there is no food or water for this thousand years, no sun, no moon, no stars, completely dark. The animal kingdom is also wiped out during the tribulation. How is it possible for anyone to survive under these conditions? These are the conditions described in Zechariah along with what we see in Revelation, correct? And what about the reference to living water? Revelation 22 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. Zechariah 14:8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter. 9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name. The living water does not come until "It is done." Revelation (21:6) is clear on this point. Living water is strictly for overcomers. Zechariah 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. Therefore this passage is referring to what we see here. Revelation 21:6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” As you can see, everything continues to point to the exact same place. I hope this illustration helps. The bottom line, the two cannot be separated, the living water does not come until "It is done." The passage above provides us a timeline, Satan is bound at the start of the millenium, and released at the end of it, for a short time. This also coincides with the first resurrection, the first being at the start of the millenium, and the second resurrection taking place at the end. Now there are some key phrases to keep in mind. In the Zechariah passage (14:2), The Lord says that He will gather the nations, correct? In the above passage it states that Satan will gather the nations, correct? In Revelation 16:16 it states, they will gather the nations, correct? They = The Lord and Satan. Now, to address your concern over the time. First, we have to look back at what precedes this. Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. We see the way cleared right here, the river is dried up. Then in verse 15 we see the first resurrection, following that they gather the kings. So we see here that the enemies battle plan is already in place. In verse 14 they have already sent out word for the kings to gather, correct? They do not gather for the final battle until verse 16 though, and the reason for that is because they encounter some unexpected delays along the way. Look at what else is happening, keeping in mind that verse 15 above is when He comes. Revelation 9:13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number. 17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury. 20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. They weren't expecting to encounter any resistance crossing the river, much like Pharoah wasn't expecting the Red Sea to crash in on him either. Keep in mind that this passage again references that very specific day and hour, this is when He comes. The people who survive this do not repent though, they remain enemies of God as shown in verse 20. This is where the anti-christ and the false prophet meet their demise, in the above battle. Revelation 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” The first thing they do when this begins, is try to hide. According to Zechariah, there is so much chaos and fear that they even kill each other. Note in this passage, the sun, moon, and stars are removed, this is the sign of His coming, correct? The same thing Zechariah describes, correct? In what day is this? The great day of the wrath of the Lamb, correct? We see the battle depicted from Revelation 9 in the passage below, pay close attention to the participants of this battle. Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. We see the exact same group from Revelation 6, we see the beast, and we see the false prophet. This is not the battle of Armageddon. The battle of Armageddon features Satan leading the remaining enemies in the final battle, with the beast and false prophet already having been eliminated. At the conclusion of the passage from Revelation 6 it says, "20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts." This is the group that Satan leads into the battle of Armageddon. This is established here. Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The beast and the false prophet have already been thrown in, the devil joins them after the battle of Armageddon. Two completely different battles. One at the beginning of the day, and one at the end. I hope that helps. That is very good. I would like to ask you what you think is the centre piece of God`s great jigsaw? I see the unchanging purpose of God (or the centerpiece) as perfection. What I mean by that is the elimination of evil and anything associated with it, once and for all. Only those who are "spotless" will see this. This is why not only does He create a new earth, but new heavens as well, because the current heavens were tainted by Satan and a third of the angels. The people of Israel do not believe in Jesus, the New Testament is not part of their holy book. Jesus is speaking to us, the church, we are the only ones who hold to the New Testament. So these signs are for us, they are part of the New Testament, and what I am sharing with you is what the Holy Spirit has led me to understand. I am part of the body. I don't disagree that the bible is about Jesus, but it is also about God and the Holy Spirit as well. I do not see three groups in regards to the body, I only see one body, one bride, one seed, one husband, one God. I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that every word in scripture is not meant for us, the majority of sermons I have heard in my lifetime display the opposite. Pastors take the message of passages from the past and apply them to everyday situations we face, and demonstrate how they are applicable to this day. It is also from these very lessons that we are able to understand the character of God. Close. What I am illustrating is this. In the Old Testament examples they do go through their trials, and God preserves them. This same thing is illustrated in Revelation 12 regarding "the woman" in the end times. God seals them to protect them from His judgements, and keeps them out of Satan's reach. This is how He has always dealt with the Jews. Beginning with Jesus and the New Testament, we see that this changes, why? Because believers need not fear death in our earthly bodies, the second death cannot touch us. Everyone dies once. Scripture tells us not to love our lives so much as to shrink from death, what does that mean to you? This is also illustrated in Revelation 12 regarding the "offspring" in the end times. God has always dealt with believers in the same way. Yes, Enoch was taken, but why? Genesis 5:21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. 24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Enoch was not taken because of the flood, in fact, the flood does not come until long after he is taken as shown in Genesis 5. There are still generations to follow as scripture shows, nor do these passages even infer that the flood has anything to do with him leaving. What these passages state, is that God took him because of his faith. Considering that Enoch has not yet died, this tells me that Enoch is one of the two witnesses in Revelation, the other being Elijah. These are the only two men in scripture that did not die, they still owe God a death. This is why God took them when He did. They represent the two lampstands, Enoch (Gentile), Elijah (Jew). I hope this helps, God bless you.

Hello again Ranger and anyone else following along, There is something more I wanted to add for your consideration, so forgive me for continuing on, but I think this may help everyone to understand what I am trying to say. What I want to discuss is something we touched on in our conversation, and that is how people were in the days of Noah, and how they will be in the end times. Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. In this passage, Jesus tells us what we both agree on, people will pay no attention to the signs, correct? Peter says the following. II Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. Again, we see specifically that in the last days scoffers will come. We see specifically that they question His coming, which in turn means, they are ignoring the signs, correct? The disciples ask Jesus specifically for what? Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And His response is this. Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Matthew 24:40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. Everything in red above is a sign, from Jesus. What you suggest is that I ignore all of these signs He gave me. Do you see the problem here? In essence, you are telling me and anyone else to become the scoffers, ignore the signs. Ignore Jesus? Is it any wonder that there will be scoffers when the church itself is endorsing ignoring the signs? And according to you, this same church deserves some kind of special treatment from God? I think in an effort to cling to this early exit theory, people are not following out what they suggest to its full conclusion. I don't believe for one second that your intention aligns with any of what I said in the above segment, but that is what you are telling people to do. You are telling everyone to ignore the signs Jesus gave, and become one of those scoffers. Do not ignore the signs, be prepared. God gave us His Word for a reason, every word within it is for each of us. The other thing I wanted to discuss are the thoughts I left you with from the last post, so I will copy and paste that here. The Israelites did not come up out of Egypt until after the ten plagues. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in to the fiery furnace. Daniel went in to the Lion's den. Noah went through the flood. Jesus suffered the cross. The apostles went through their tribulation. People right now are being killed for their faith in Jesus. There is a pattern here that needs to be addressed, starting with the events from the Old Testament. In each of the stories mentioned above from the Old Testament, we see these consistencies. They all go through their situation, they are not removed from it. God protects and delivers them from their situation. In Revelation 12, we see this same pattern again concerning the character of the woman. The woman will go through the tribulation, but God will protect and deliver her. Now, let us look at what happens from the time of the New Testament. Jesus was crucified. The apostles were killed. Ever since that time believers have been killed. There is a pattern here as well, it is called sacrifice. In Revelation 12, we see this same pattern again concerning the character of the offspring. The offspring will be killed by the enemy, just as the enemy has been killing believers since the cross. The woman represents the remnant of Israel spoken of by the prophets, God will deal with the Jews in the same manner He always has. The 7 years are the remaining years on their promise from God to receive the Messiah. They will squander the first 3 1/2 years just as they squandered the previous 493 years. We see this illustrated in scripture regarding these times. First, they will make a covenant with the anti-christ himself. Second, they will rebuild their temple and resume the same rituals they practiced in the Old Testament. They are still not believers or they would not do this. When the anti-christ rises from the fatal head wound, he will then desecrate the temple. The Jews will suddenly realize they missed something, because they will know that this is what Daniel prophesied. This is when they will flee Jerusalem, and the city is given over to the gentiles for 42 months. This is when God initiates His protection of them, with both the seal, and not allowing the dragon to get them. God does not do this out of favoritism, God does this in keeping His promise. The Jews could not understand this because God made them blind to it. He did this so that salvation could come to the gentiles. God will not let them perish over a blindness He put there to save us gentiles, so He must take them aside and lead them to truth. This is precisely what John writes in Revelation, and it is confirmed through the prophets Hosea and Isaiah. The offspring represent the church. God will deal with the church in the same manner He always has, no believer is subject to the second death. This life we now live is meaningless apart from Jesus, it is through Him that our sins are removed, thereby making us immune to the second death. The life we now live belongs to Him, and if some among us are alive in the end times, we should willingly lay down this life just as He did. John 12:25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me. And what does it mean to follow Him. Matthew 10:38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it. Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it." Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it." Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it." Luke 14:25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:34 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.” This is not a subtle point He is making, it appears in all four gospels, multiple times in some. This has been true from that time until now, believers die in this life, yet they never taste death. This will continue until the end. The final passage from the end of Luke 14, indicates that Jesus is pointing us directly to Revelation. Consider this analogy. When you assemble a jigsaw puzzle, how do you begin? If the picture you are trying to assemble has a horse as the centerpiece, you start by finding all the pieces that could be a part of the horse and start putting them together. The pieces either fit, or they belong elsewhere, you can't force them together and end up with the correct puzzle at the end. You must also use every piece to say you have completed it. Scripture is no different. God bless.

Hello Marilyn, I'll just start from the top and work my way down. Agreed, it is very specific. So what are the requirements? 1. They are beheaded for their belief in Jesus and for the Word of God. 2. They do not worship the beast or his image. 3. They do not receive the mark of the beast. Are you implying that those who have or are being beheaded now accepted the mark or worshipped the beast? If not, then they meet all the criteria necessary to be in that group. The point is in all of this, both groups are resurrected together. One group represents believers from within the church, and one group represents believers from within the great tribulation. They are together, resurrected together. Absolutely, this is why His reign in this day is done with an iron scepter. He is going to knock the stuffing out of them so to speak. The key is to remember that one thing Peter pleads with us not to forget. A day= a thousand years. God bless you.