asper

Elhanan posted, I assume you are making a comparison between Paul's reference to being alive at one time apart from the law and those examples of peoples who do not distinguish the sin in their lives because they do not have or understand the law by which they are judged and held accountable, i.e., children. I have no problem with that as it is a legitimate comparison as Paul was once a child. However if you are attempting to compare those examples with the prodigal being alive, you seem to have missed the point. The prodigal was aware of his sin and the need to repent and ask forgiveness. His older brother accuses his prodigal brother of transgressing the commandment of their father and wasting his inheritance on harlots. Thus to claim that the prodigal was alive in the sense of not yet having the law is quite a stretch to say the least. Like his older brother the prodigal was well aware of the law. Secondly, your claim of my quoting Rom 8:13 without context is without merit. Many OSAS advocates are very fond of quoting Rom 8:1 without quoting the whole verse: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Admittedly not all Bible translations include this latter clause depending on the manuscript translated from. Nonetheless, it does not matter since Paul essentially repeats the same thing later in Rom 8:4 - "that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Lastly, you ask if I really think everyone in the church is truly saved. Your question is actually a false dilemma but since you ask my answer is "no" - some were not true converts to begin with. In asking your question you believe that scripture passages that appear to say that a believer can lose their eternal security only refer to those who were not truly saved to begin - in other words false converts. In order to do so, you will have to contend with the plain warning contained in 1 Tim 3:6: "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil." my response, You are completely wrong in your assessment. You missed the context of the parable. Luke 15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. 3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost. 7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. 8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost. 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. 11 ¶ And he said, A certain man had two sons: Publican and sinners- younger son. Pharisees and scribes- elder son. The sons are representations of those who were born Israelites according to the flesh. So in what way were they sons? By physical birth. When were they alive? The only time I could see is as Paul said. Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. So no, I am not wrong. Continuing on, Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. There is no word “if” in either of these verses. There is no word “when” in either of these verses. So how do you think that it should be a conditional statement? In answer your last statement. Hebrews 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. 1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? so…………..

since we are repeating posts i might as well join in with the answer i gave to your post, Your conclusion is not very likely, Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. When was Paul alive? When did the commandment come? 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? 2 Samuel 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. And about the verse in Romans you quoted without any context, 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 ¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Do you really think everyone in the church is truly saved? 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. Basically if it walks like a hog, and talks like a hog, it is probably a hog. if it walks like a dog, and talks like a dog, it is probably a dog.

Your conclusion is not very likely, Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. When was Paul alive? When did the commandment come? 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? 2 Samuel 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. And about the verse in Romans you quoted without any context, 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 ¶ Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Do you really think everyone in the church is truly saved? 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. Basically if it walks like a hog, and talks like a hog, it is probably a hog. if it walks like a dog, and talks like a dog, it is probably a dog.

On this we agree. Yet, many would take this passage and say "see, you can place your trust in Christ and still go to hell". When in reality these people never were in Christ to begin with. Christ gave a similar illustration with the Pharisee and the publican. The Pharisee trusted his own works of righteousness and performance, where as the publican simply fell on the mercy of God and was Justified. Christ himself is our mercy seat, our place where God meets us with Mercy and declares us righteous based on the Holy work that Christ did. Justified by God himself. Our works cannot add or take away from this. Scripture calls it the gift of righteousness. Please understand that James is not declaring how we are saved, but rather the effects of true faith. It is wrong to tell a man or woman that faith in Christ alone is not enough to save them. If any man teaches that salvation comes by faith+works, he has polluted the pure gospel message, and is to be accursed. Myself included. James 2 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. If someone's faith is dead, is that person saved? My personal opinion is that if faith does not have works then it is indeed dead and that would indicate not having saving faith. Our faith is a living faith and has works. James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. But what exactly are you preaching? Are you saying that you have to work for your salvation? Or is it some additional thing you must do for salvation? I would say that I am at a loss to see your point. Do you think that the works are from yourself and not generated by faith? Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. We call (a work of faith) Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. We draw near (a work of faith) In conclusion, 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. So who or what can beat that.

Is anyone here advocating strict adherence to the law? let's see would If anyone willfully sin fall under "advocating strict adherence to the law" or not?? If someone were to advocate keeping the law for salvation that would certainly fit because the hebrews were being warned about going back. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

Is anyone here advocating strict adherence to the law? what do you mean by strict? James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

I didn't say that. James did. "Faith without works is dead". If I may interject, James is talking about works of faith. Paul talks about works of the law. James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Notice above what has the works. The question is where in the law does it say to sacrifice your son? We have works because of faith James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Hebrews 11 goes into more detail of the reaction of works caused by faith. 4 ¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. There are more but I think anyone could see this. None of the above has anything to do with keeping the law which is self righteousness. Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble I think it is obvious that believing that someone exists and has power over you is not the same as putting your trust in someone. Robertson word pictures Thou believest that God is one (συ πιστευεις οτι εις θεος εστιν). James goes on with his reply and takes up mere creed apart from works, belief that God exists (there is one God), a fundamental doctrine, but that is not belief or trust in God. It may be mere creed. Thou doest well (κaλως ποιεις). That is good as far as it goes, which is not far. The demons also believe (κaι τa δaιμονιa πιστευουσιν). They go that far (the same verb πιστευω). They never doubt the fact of God’s existence. And shudder (κaι φρισσουσιν). Present active indicative of φρισσω, old onomatopoetic verb to bristle up, to shudder, only here in N.T. Like Latin horreo (horror, standing of the hair on end with terror). The demons do more than believe a fact. They shudder at it.

But you said you believe your gift of tongues is or could be a deception. Why? i don't know what to say about your inability to comprehend or undertand... . context is everything. i was showing different ways that God Judges people and none were meant to be specific about this instance. but what is strange that you didn't apply the other ones? that seems odd to me... I've been reading what you write and how you respond, and the whole time I see you speaking pot-shots. What I want is to understand what you believe and why you believe it. I find it pointless to debate potshots. I want to discuss this with you understanding exactly what your position is and why? I can't answer your other questions until then. Hi nebula, I keep answering your questions and you keep saying you don’t understand. I am a little skeptical of that as I have indicated by what you call pot shots but what I call my show of skepticism. But why do you need to know everything I believe? It would take years to explain everything I have seen in the Bible. So………..

hi other one 1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. God bless

Interesting scripture. What do you think 'appearance' and "righteous" might mean in the context of the verse? (I am still giving it some thought, so no trick question here...) Hi fez, I can give you the defs, 24 Judge <2919> (5720) not <3361> according to <2596> the appearance <3799>, but <235> judge <2919> (5657) righteous <1342> judgment <2920>. 2919. κρινω krino kree’-no; properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish: — avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think. 3799. οψις opsis op’-sis; from 3700; properly, sight (the act), i.e. (by impl) the visage, an external show: — appearance, countenance, face. 1342. δικαιος dikaios dik’-ah-yos; from 1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication, innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): — just, meet, right(-eous). The context is as follows, John 7:20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. So off hand I would go with that we need to make a closer examination and put our personal suppositions behind us. God bless you and yours

i think the key lies in this verse, John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment

Amen Except I say that all the gifts are in operation today. 1Cr 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Since the time this topic has surfaced here at Worthy, the Lord guided me to this verse to explain to me that the gifts, all of them, are functioning and will until he returns. Unfortunately though, many who have experienced the gifts, which are without repentance, have got caught up in being led of spirits that are not of God. In Jesus Name, Gary hi gdmoss, thank you for your response. i have no problem with someone who believes the gifts are for today. i have problems with the free pass that is given to some disorderly leaders and the tendency to silence any critics without a honest discussion. it's ok to silence the critics but the key is having a honest discussion. what do we have to be afraid of anyway. God bless you...

Is it correct to judge or is it correct not to judge? Luke 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. Acts 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? 1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 1 Corinthians 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 1 Corinthians 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge 1 Corinthians 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. Acts 14:15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: Galatians 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? I think the point is made but I invite any yea or nay responses.

Help me out here....... closer to????????? Hi Mike, Just because someone is called that doesn’t mean they chosen. Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. As previously posted, Are all those speaking in tongues considered legit? Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work. Even it some gifts are still available today that doesn’t mean that they that do them are righteous. 1 Samuel 19:18 So David fled, and escaped, and came to Samuel to Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and dwelt in Naioth. 19 And it was told Saul, saying, Behold, David is at Naioth in Ramah. 20 And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied. 21 And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also. 22 Then went he also to Ramah, and came to a great well that is in Sechu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they be at Naioth in Ramah. 23 And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. 24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?

It was for real............... Holy Spirit filled believers speaking to Jesus. Jesus never denied they did not cast out devils, or do that other stuff, He said they are workers of iniquity. They are not doers of the Word. Remember the Holy Spirit is a free Gift and doing Miracles does not denote ones standing with God. I think that was the Lords Point, that we must live our life and abide in Him. Using the free Gift of Tongues, or Casting out some devils, does not mean the person is right with the Lord. I know someone that raised someone from the dead high on Heroin. His buddy overdosed, they zipped his buddy in a bag, and the guy opened the bag, and said in the name of Jesus, come to life.... and bam, to everyone amazement, the ambulance guys he came back to life. Now I know for a fact, my buddy was not living for God, I know He had faith, and believed the Name of Jesus could overcome death. The one thing that concerned me though is I warned him that faith only goes so far when in disobedience. Blessings. Jesus Is Lord. getting closer

But you said you believe your gift of tongues is or could be a deception. Why? i don't know what to say about your inability to comprehend or undertand... . context is everything. i was showing different ways that God Judges people and none were meant to be specific about this instance. but what is strange that you didn't apply the other ones? that seems odd to me...

Naw, I feel bad for people like Sevenseas who knows little herself, and judges people she has never met. Some bad people came here and trashed a thread because people got help, and hope from Joyce Meyers. It's sad, these people are like that. Picking at hairs. I just thank God that he does not do that to us. The bible is clear though, the same judgement you give, you have to endure the same. I hope all the bad people here are perfect, I mean spot on Perfect. The lie is.......... That I choose what is acceptable and not, If I say it's bad, then it's bad. So I can judge without any consequences. Believe what you want, Your getting judged the same back. Jesus is Lord. and you didn't just judge seven seas? did you not just belittle her claiming she knows little? did you call her bad? perhaps a mirror is needed.

but i'm afraid that you will feel their wrath. wish you well...God bless

fantastic post...God bless

Sorry, Asper, I am not understanding your train of thought. Please clarify. i find that hard to believe but i will take your word on it. i don't think that you would lie to me. the first part, why did you quote this verse to me? Matt. 7 9 "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone ? 10 "Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? Did you begin speaking in tongues after asking to receive the Holy Spirit? If that was deception, would that not be as if the son asked for a loaf and he was given a stone? The apostles did all of these things, too. Hi nebula, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit so I really don’t see how your point applies. Do you think that all who received the Holy Spirit speak in tongues? To the next point, Well I don’t think that these are the apostles that are saying these things but evidently there would be at least some others that exhibit these things who are not for real. That is the point. Not everyone isn’t saved, but at the same time I would not say that all are saved. Do you disagree?

Sorry, Asper, I am not understanding your train of thought. Please clarify. i find that hard to believe but i will take your word on it. i don't think that you would lie to me. the first part, why did you quote this verse to me? Matt. 7 9 "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone ? 10 "Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? second part, what group or groups could use this argument? (hint it would have to be the ones that do these things) did we not prophesy in your name? did we not cast out devils in thy name? did we not do miracles in thy name? and then would you say that every reply from them would be recorded? if so why?

hi nebula, that is not the case. tongues may exist today or they may not. i can speak in tongues but i do not because there is no proof either way. so i would rather be on the safe side. Matt. 7 9 "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone ? 10 "Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? What does the gift of speaking in tongues have to do with false prophets deluding people? Hi nebula, Holy Spirit does not have to mean tongues. Please try to use verses in context. When given a list of things mentioned that fit into a category it would generally include everything else in the entire category even if one or some are not mentioned especially if the one in the category is not fully revealed.

hi nebula, that is not the case. tongues may exist today or they may not. i can speak in tongues but i do not because there is no proof either way. so i would rather be on the safe side. the thing i do believe is that there are many delusional and false people that do many things. look at the following verses. Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. notice what was said, Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. so there is some that try to look like sheep but what are they really? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. so if there is good fruit and no evil fruit then you should be ok. (what purpose is accomplished, who gets the glory, who is made rich, does thier teaching agree with the Bible, etc) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? does it say Lord, Lord have we not pretended to prophesy in thy name? pretended to cast out devils in thy name? pretended to have done many wonderful works? no it does not. but what did Jesus say to them? i never knew you.

Hi Mike, Nice one. So you think that what you are seeing is always true? 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. Joshua 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses. Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. So obviously I will have to reserve judgment on your personal testimony For those who may have questions, What really shows the difference between sons of God and those who are not. (no implication intended) Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

hi mike, sorry, i did not mean to cut you short. i like conversing with you. i'm not saying that it isn't true but only inconclusive just like everything else from both sides about this subject.