CWJ

Wisdom....I guess you are saying honesty is the best policy, right? Of course it is! :thumb: Now....if we are to discuss particulars about what goes where......

Adstar I follow your thought there. It seems the early apostles were endowed with special gifts of power from the Holy Spirit, which they could even pass on. This was after the Pentecost, and the Spirit was moving in a mighty way to "get the ball rolling", I think. Yes I believe we have the written Word delivered complete..... as in Jude 3. NOT to say that the gifts of the Spirit don't operate today....they do! I just think we must prove all things by scripture, this IS our discernment verifier. Study the occurances of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and see if they were previously saved, or, just then recieving further gifts of the Spirit. The scriptures that people take as proof of this occurance don't always state it as a "baptism", so I think a lot of inference goes on here. Scripture shows only One baptism....1Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews, or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been made all to drink in one Spirit." Jesus said by being re-born we can see the kingdom of heaven. By the proper belief we are re-born spiritually by this baptism, into the body of Christ. We know Jesus baptises us with the Holy Spirit, just as we do an outward "show" of obedience by being baptised with water. So, the instant one is saved, that instant one is "baptized" by the Holy Spirit. NOT to say that if the Spirit chooses you may speak with tongues (scripturally), at that moment, this is for the unbelievers around right then. As the Holy Spirit chooses you are gifted with whatever gift so deemed for you. Blessings....Carl...OSAS

I tend to think that God didn't just have an "original" scripted, then just left it to man to deliver down through the years. I believe there is and always has been a Divine hand on His Word being delivered. This is where faith plays a part I believe. Some info for you on this subject at these links: www.wayoflife.org www.sentex.net/~hark/sitemap.html Blessings....Carl...OSAS

One thing for sure....I'll be glad when we're all "perfect"....right? HA! So far I've found where they "cast lots" for things, so, isn't that like taking a "chance", or gambling? Waiting for some scriptures.

fishman....I definitely don't want to come across as self righteous! Yes I have bought them before. A long time ago. A sin is a sin. No matter what it is . I'm just questioning what is God's viewpoint on this. I'm not here addressing other sins. Do you think gambling is or isn't a sin? About all those pastors you mentioned....that's another discussion post altogether. In this day of christianity that yells legalism at every comment on obedience from the instruction of scripture, I feel it's all the more important to call out sinful activities! So now I guess all the ways of the world are OK to follow? Isn't that what is implied with this on the national news?? Boy, I could really get going here, but I want to keep this strictly to a scriptural answer to this lottery situation. I guess I shouldn't have asked for opinions, cause God's Word rules the day in a true born again believers life! Still searching for the answer I want......... Blessings...Carl OSAS

I think 1John2:27 gives some good direction on discernment: "But the anointing which you have recieved of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him." Also I like

OK, I think there is a scripture that would particullarly apply to the lottery, I'm searching now. On a more personal experience I'll say this. We have a personal friend who got "hooked" on scratch-off tickets. She got caught embezzling from her company to the tune of over $40,000 in a years time. This was to play scratch-off. Gambling is gambling, and an addictive and harmful one. Also adstar in response to your post I think there is a scripture for your viewpoint too. Back in awhile....Carl...OSAS

Yeah, that's funny a millionaire wins it! Can anybody give me what the scriptures say, what does God think of such??

I'd like to offer some insight here. 1 Cor 14:2...."For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." The Greek word used here for understandeth is "akuo", meaning primarily to hear out loud with understanding (audibily). In this chapter dealing with the gifts of tongues the other times the word understand is used it is a different Greek word meaning simply to understand (mentally). THEN....Paul tells what the gift of tongues is for..... 1Cor14:22.."Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:...." This along with other stipulations of the usage are given, which it seems , Bisquit, you have picked up on. As far as being baptised with the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands, I believe scripture teaches that upon the salvation instant we are baptised as such. John 7:39..."(But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should recieve: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" We know in John it shows that by the right kind of belief we are "re-born", and we know that Jesus is to baptise us with the Holy Spirit, thereby we are spiritually "re-born". There is no "second baptism" for believers..... Eph 4:5.."One lord, one faith, one baptism." We can be filled with the Spirit....with this fruit... Eph5:18,19...."And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit:...(19).....Speaking to yourselves in pslams and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" Hope this helps, although each insight can be further expounded upon. Blessings, Carl....OSAS

I just read about the big winner in the over 300 million lottery. He says he will "tithe" part of it to his church. What do you say to a born again believer playing the lottery? What does God say? Please try to keep this to the questions at hand.

I was trying to watch it but became disgusted, then turned it off. YUCK!

Holy.....belonging to or coming from God, spiritually perfect or pure; free from sin. Just some of the definitions from Mr. Webster. Through my re-birth in JESUS......I am Holy!

Let's keep it on topic. Because there is someone curious about this and not yet settled on the truth. IF...you can be lost again by "freewill" of walking away from God....THEN....you are trusting in your "freewill' to keep you from falling.........and that contradicts Jude 24....AND puts trust in your own "freewill" to "keep" you saved....NOT in Jesus' work on the cross. Therefore ,(contradicting Eph2:9), you have done a "work" by your "freewill", which you think has kept you saved in God's grace. "Not of works lest any man should boast" Be not decieved

I don't believe we can "claim" anything from God, He is NOT obligated to us. We are taught to pray "according to His will", this is learned by taking the "whole council" of the Lord into consideration on doctrines. He gives according to His will, We ask of Him with faith that "believes"(without doubt) in His Words. This is consistant with Jesus' teaching on the faith the size of a mustard seed. We know that God gives us faith. So ultimately He is in control and NOT obligated to our "claims" To use "claim" to me puts a demand on God. Like He is obligated. This sounds like Word of Faith teachings. Yes I believe God will answer like He says, but it may not be His will for you to get an answer right away, also. Peace, Carl...OSAS

The new creature WILL bear fruit. "provided you remain in His kindness" OR....you could say: "provided you BEAR FRUIT"...thereby, having evidence of re-birth.... "remaining in His kindness" is bearing the fruit....READ: Phil2:13...Jude24.....this is how we remain. People who hold to loosing salvation ALWAYS ignore or misunderstand the miracle of being re-born of God.! Use the plain scripture to interpret the "not so plain". And as I have shown with MANY scriptures...God is specific in telling us of our ETERNAL SECURITY! Peace to all...Carl, OSAS

munari I feel you haven't answered my questions in the "specific" way I was asking. The verses you used I feel you have misinterpreted. I am very confident in the bible I use. It IS God's word. I am not wanting to argue the false Catholic teachings you are blinded with. I only want to tell the truth of Jesus and His saving power. I do this with many scriptures. I pray your eyes will be opened by the Holy spirit. :inlove: We know for sure now, in the present tense we ARE SAVED: 1John5;13..."These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." This verse SPECIFICALLY lets us know we can KNOW now. No waiting and wondering Another hard scriptural proof of NOT loosing salvation: 1. We must be 'born again"...John3:3 (KJV) 2. We must overcome, and this is done by doing #1 above: 1John5:4.."For whatsoever is born of God ("born again") OVERCOMETH the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." KJV 3. We are specifically promised to never "be blotted out". Rev3:5.."He that OVERCOMETH, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; AND I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels." Now that's HARD evidence! OSAS SPECIFICS! What happens when we die? 2Cor5:8.."We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." All of the above show that we ARE SAVED before physical death......no purgatory, no need, no scriptural evidence(hard). 2John5:.."We know that whosoever IS BORN OF GOD sinneth not; but he that is begotton of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." NOPE, don't need no purgatory, our sins are no more, for His Spirit lives in us, washing us free of sin by His Blood. At the physical death our sins have already been atoned for, GO TO DIRECTLY TO HEAVEN, DO NOT PASS hell! Peace, Carl...OSAS

NOONE....I say.....NOONE at all.......has answered my question about SPECIFIC verses that SPECIFICALLY state you can: become un-re-born become un-in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit (NT) God ceases to work IN a saint Phil2:13 become un-re-created (un-made from a new creature)Gal6;15 ceases to be a child of God looses salvation AND I MEAN SPECIFICALLY!.......if the scriptures tell you these things are so, specifically......then if they can be un-done.....shouldn't you be able to show me so????? SHOW ME IF YOU CAN.....(and I don't think you can) Peace, Carl....OSAS

Whenever OSnASers use Phil2:12 they always leave off a qualifier for that...Phil2:13.....so lets examine both together ...in context: Phil2:12-13..."Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Looking in verses9-11 we see the glorification of God's almightiness. We see His greatness, we see He is the KING of KINGS. We see HE is GOD! We SHOULD have a Godly fear, or respect for His Kingship of the universe. But to say we should FEAR for our salvation is a contradiction to 1John4:18 "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath TORMENT. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." With the indwelling Holy Spirit, we have perfect love "IN" us, which does NOT produce fear of losing salvation. This is consistant with verse 13 above...God works in us, we don't even have to fear for He does what we can't do, puts us in His will. Also in contextual location to this in Phil2 we find verse 3... "Let nothing be done through strife or VAINGLORY; but in LOWLINESS of mind let each other esteem other better than themselves." We can see that this passage is stressing an "attitude" in our christian walk, not a fear of loosing salvation. 2Cor2:15.."For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that ARE SAVED, and in them that perish." 1Cor1:18.."For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God." I guess it really does matter which translation you use! So.... again I ask....can anyone show me.... SPECIFICALLY....where we cease being a child of God.....where we get "un-re-born"....where we are "un-re-created"......where God ceases to work IN us....where the Holy Spirit ceases to indwell us? The bible SPECIFICALLY tells us these things are so...so shouldn't it SPECIFICALLY tell us when they can be undone? (that's IF they can be) Peace, Carl...OSAS :inlove:

munari...could you give an answer for this question? If one is saved...... and then looses that salvation (as you think)..... then WHAT? were they ever saved from to begin with? You believe what you believe, not relying on the promise that Jesus gave us a "rest". (no fear of losing sal., perfect love casteth out fear) Matt11:28-30..."Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest....Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls....For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." BEAUTIFUL :inlove: Learn of JESUS, the one who will save you. The scriptures SPECIFICALLY tell us we are made children of God that we are spiritually re-born (Jesus said had to be) that we are a new creature that God works in us NOWHERE does it SPECIFICALLY say any of this is undone! Peace, Carl...OSAS

XAN...yeah I guess that came across a little scary at that. I guess what I'm trying to point out is that one might "say" he's saved, and deep down not really being secure in their salvation.... Like the preacher I know that was an example of this. They even "decieve" themselves by not facing up to their own doubts, until like Templeton, they become full of doubt. (they don't know that they know that they know that they know that they know.....) Scriptures are very plain we can know for sure. Munari you are misinterpreting thoses verse you quoted. If one was saved......then got un-saved (as munari says)....then WHAT were they EVER SAVED from to begin with??? NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST munari....can you...show me.....where it says we get un-re-born? Where God ceases to work in us? Where we are un-created out of Christ Jesus? Where we cease to be a child of God? Most of the verses you will try to use I'm sure have been dealt with in this thread. The one about being "grafted in"...I will come back after I study that again, but it is NOT concerning salvation. BORN ONCE, DIE TWICE...BORN TWICE, DIE ONCE

Well I would say if the Holy Spirit prompts you to say something.....then say it...if not...then don't.

Jesus said either you are with me or against me. (are any of these things "with" Jesus, do they glorify Him?) God said have NO fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. How difficult is that to understand? Either you obey or disobey! God's words, not mine. Peace, Carl :inlove:

Well....if we can "walk" away by our free will...then we "keep" ourselves in His grace by not "freely" walking away from this grace. Then the object of faith is not totally Jesus, but also trusting our "free will" to "keep" us in His grace. We must believe in Him (only)...John3:16 We are "kept" by God...Jude24 We persevere by His power "in" us....Phil2:13 We are saved by His power, not our own...1Cor1:18 OK...that's a very tuff question about Templeton, for we can't judge what happened in his heart, but we CAN judge the fruits. I think these scriptures portray what may have happened with him: Look at Matt7:21-23....these are ones who ALSO put trust in their works for salvation....Did Templeton trust in his prayer of salvation, deep down, and his "good works"? Did he trust in feelings, or experience? (not enuff) Did he TRULY trust totally in Jesus? I think he was not TRULY saved, because of this scripture describing a TRULY saved fruit-bearer: Heb10:38-39...."Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him....But we are NOT of them who draw back unto perdition: but of them that BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL." The right kind of faith is required for re-birth spiritually. A total trust in the Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ. "Not of works". We MUST believe that Jesus saves us, and nothing we do. We MUST be re-born. WE WILL KNOW IF WE ARE SAVED! We have His Spirit..1John4:13 We have scriptures to show us...1John5:13 We WILL bear fruit...Matt13:8 If someone says he knew "in his heart" he was saved but then rejected that truth, he decieved himself: Jeremiah17:9..."The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" We have not the power to hold on to Jesus, but He has the power to hold onto us. If we trust in our power to hold on to him, then we trust wrongly, and will weaken and fall. Peace, Carl

Xan, just skim through the thread and you'll find some post concerning "trouble" verses (supposedly for OSAS) which are actually descriptions of apostates. They are the ones that even dwell close to God's word and yet never become re-born. example...Luke8:12..."Those by the wayside are they that hear: then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, LEST THEY SHOULD BELIEVE AND BE SAVED." These are the ones who might even have been pastors. They can quote scriptures, know the bible by heart, and yet not saved. NEVER having trusted and with repentance placed their total faith in Jesus for salvation, always holding on to some of their own power to "keep" them in grace.(which will never be enuff) Never surrendering to that Holy Spirit baptism which makes a new creature out of a lost person. Never letting Jesus make them "born again". I once had a preacher who admitted to being this exact thing, claiming it was 12 yrs out of bible school until he received Christ. All this time "leading" a youth ministry. I'm sure everyone one who is churched knows or has heard about this type of situation. Coming to church but not saved. Same thing with Templeton. Luke 8:12 describes him, as with 2Peter2:20-22, Hebrews 6:4-9. As John the Baptist signified the power and importance of Jesus baptising with the Holy Spirit, we MUST understand this re-birth of our spirit-man. This miracle (Holy Spirit baptism) which enables the Holy Spirit to dwell within our spirit, which has become sin-free due to Jesus. Gal6:15..."For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but A NEW CREATURE." Peace, XAN....ask more if you want, I always enjoy talking about the miracles of Jesus..or ..Yeshua!

Doctrine for me Denominationalism is un-scriptural in nature. Don't go there no more. Amen, Meg! :thumb: