givennewname Posted March 1, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 324 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/29/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/16/1964 Author Share Posted March 1, 2009 Why does this always come up? No one claims Jews have any special privelidges There are many blessings to being a Jew... for one, they are heirs of the Abrahamic covenant... as such are entitled to the deeds of the Promised Land which is yet to be received because Hebrews say: Abraham is the architect of a city whose foundation is not yet built. Secondly, i believe in the millennial Kingdom when Jesus will be the King of the Jews, The Jews will physically be a Citizen of the King, the Son of David and it is prophesied that many will grab the hand of a Jew and call him Blessed and want to go up and worship the king Zec 8:23 Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, they shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. It has not happened yet but it will in the Millennial kingdom. Thirdly: The Jews are The Bride of Jehovah and specially loved of him: Isa 54:1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54:2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thy husband; Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isa 54:6 For Jehovah hath called thee as a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, even a wife of youth, when she is cast off, saith thy God. I wished i had been born a Jew but i am not.. At least i will be the bride of Christ instead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 1, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 1, 2009 No one is saying you join Israel to be saved. Where did you get that idea? If you say the Olive Tree is Israel then you must say that Gentiles must join Israel, but the Olive Tree does represent Israel but the Kingdom of God in which believing Israel and believing Gentiles are apart of. Romans 11 refers to but Jews and Gentiles as branches within the tree and not the tree itself. Big differnace. Shiloh gave a good explanation of what I meant with this. And it is not we joining ourselves, it's the Lord joining us. And when we say "Israel" we are not saying "Jews" and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 1, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Why does this always come up? No one claims Jews have any special privelidges There are many blessings to being a Jew... I know this. But the accusation is that we are claiming Jews get a free ride into Heaven or such silly notions - which we are not saying - which I was trying to challenge. Jews and Gentiles are one in Messiah. But His plans and purposes for the natural branches are different from His plans and purposes with the wild branches. It's not for privilege of favoritism, but rather for us to work together, each providing different strengths to bring greater wholeness to the productivity of the tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 1, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 635 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 1, 2009 There are many blessings to being a Jew... for one, they are heirs of the Abrahamic covenant... as such are entitled to the deeds of the Promised Land which is yet to be received because Hebrews say: Abraham is the architect of a city whose foundation is not yet built. The heirs of Abraham's covenant are to those of the faith in Christ not because you are a descendant. The bible says the Promise was to Abraham seed (Christ) not seeds (Israel). The seed of Abraham is Christ and to those in Christ. Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. So if your in Christ your a part of Abraham's covenant it was not made to Israel as a whole but only to those who believe both Jew and gentil. Eph 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies with Christ, I wished i had been born a Jew but i am not.. At least i will be the bride of Christ instead... Its much more important to be born of the Spirit then after the flesh. If your in Christ then your are one of God's chosen people. (Romans 9:25) Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Rom 9:24-26 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (25) As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'" (26) "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 1, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Jedi - Paul speaks of the "advantage to being a Jew." Don't forget that, OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 No one is saying you join Israel to be saved. Where did you get that idea? If you say the Olive Tree is Israel then you must say that Gentiles must join Israel, but the Olive Tree does represent Israel but the Kingdom of God in which believing Israel and believing Gentiles are apart of. Romans 11 refers to but Jews and Gentiles as branches within the tree and not the tree itself. Big differnace. You seem to agree that Jews are the natural branches and gentiles are wild branches grafted into the olive tree of Romans 11. Lets start there.... Rav Shaul says that "some" of those natural branches were broken off so that we (gentiles) might be grafted in. He also says that God is able to graft them back in again and that this was done so that we (gentiles) might show mercy to those natural branches which were broken off. You say that the Oive Tree represents God's Kingdom but somehow that is separate from Israel. I don't understand how anyone can come to that conclusion since that concept is never mentioned by any writers in the bible....so help me if I'm not understanding your view. Are you saying that jews are born into God's Kingdom and then broken off? Really Jedi...think about the logical conclusion. The Olive Tree can only be the nation Israel which the Lord Himself formed and calls His "inheritance". When Rav Shaul wrote the book of Romans, there was no other possible conclusion but that he was speaking about Israel as the Kingdom to come. How can we (gentiles) be "heirs together with Israel" (Eph 3:6) if Israel is not the heir? This view of the Kingdom being the same thing as "The Israel of God" is completely consistant with several places in multiple books where Paul speaks of the gentiles being joined to the commonwealth of Israel. Not to mention that its completely consistant with the writings of ALL the Prophets before then. I seriously don't understand how anyone can say they put their trust in Yeshua and yet not agree with His plan for redemption...no matter what it may be. Can you help me figure out why you claim faith in the King of Israel, the Messiah of Israel, the God of Israel...yet you reject any connection to the nation and people of Israel? Honestly it seems like prejudice to me. I'm not accusing you...just saying that what it looks like There is no favoritism in the Lord yet He still has only one nation He has called "His inheritance". We simply can't think of this in human terms of "better" because that is based on human envy...which is the root of almost every sin. Isaiah 19:25 The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 2, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 635 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2009 You say that the Oive Tree represents God's Kingdom but somehow that is separate from Israel. I don't understand how anyone can come to that conclusion since that concept is never mentioned by any writers in the bible....so help me if I'm not understanding your view. I didn't say the Kingdom of God is separate from Israel. Believing Israel is very much apart of this Kingdom. The foundation of the Church is built upon the Apostles who are Jews. Yahshua himself being the chief cornerstone who is a Jew. All believing Jews are apart of the Kingdom of God. On the other hand unbelieving Jews are not apart of this Kingdom, not to say they cant . Jesus told Jews unless you repent and believe your will not enter the Kingdom of God. They are the branches which were broken off. The Kingdom of God was taken from the them as the scriptures tell us. How can the Olive tree be the nation of Israel if they were broken off from it referring to those that dint have faith in Christ. Mat 21:42-43 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? (43) Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. Are you saying that jews are born into God's Kingdom and then broken off? Really Jedi...think about the logical conclusion. The Olive Tree can only be the nation Israel which the Lord Himself formed and calls His "inheritance". When Rav Shaul wrote the book of Romans, there was no other possible conclusion but that he was speaking about Israel as the Kingdom to come. No one is born into the Kingdom of God by flesh but by the faith of Abraham. Not all Jews were true Jews. Being a descendant of Abraham does not make you a Child of God. How can we (gentiles) be "heirs together with Israel" (Eph 3:6) if Israel is not the heir? Israel is referring to believing Jews. The gospel was first preached to them. They are the first born of the Kingdom of God, but not all Jews believed. So you can not make blanket statements and say that we are together with unbelievers and those who deny Christ. We are heirs together with believing Israel who follow and believe in Christ I seriously don't understand how anyone can say they put their trust in Yeshua and yet not agree with His plan for redemption...no matter what it may be. Can you help me figure out why you claim faith in the King of Israel, the Messiah of Israel, the God of Israel...yet you reject any connection to the nation and people of Israel? Honestly it seems like prejudice to me. I'm not accusing you...just saying that what it looks like I have made the connection your just not seeing it. Israeli believers and Gentile believers are bothers and sisters in Christ. We don't boast ourselves above or better then each other because we are equal in God. God has called us into one body, one Spirit, one church in Christ. There is not division between nationality or race in Christ we are one in him. God's ultimate plan was to save all who believe including Israel and beginning with Israel. I have much respect and love for Israel and pray for them often. BTW: I never questioned your salvation and neither should you question mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 2, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 2, 2009 There is still miscommunication going on. We do agree that Jew and Gentile are one in Messiah. As far as salvation goes, we are all on the same boat. No one challenges this. However, Paul said there is much advantage to being a Jew. He also said: 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, and 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. (Rom. 11) Thus as far as ministry and as far as the plans and purposes of God go, there is a distinction. But as Yod pointed out, this isn't favoritism on God's part. They have one design and calling, we have another. In our unity, functioning as we were designed to be, believing Jews as Jews and believing Gentiles as Gentiles, the Kingdom of God will advance. The New Covenant that we belong to is the New Covenant that is made with Israel: 31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, F23 says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (Jer. 31) Thus, we have been joined into God's Covenant with Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I didn't say the Kingdom of God is separate from Israel. Believing Israel is very much apart of this Kingdom. The foundation of the Church is built upon the Apostles who are Jews. Yahshua himself being the chief cornerstone who is a Jew. All believing Jews are apart of the Kingdom of God. On the other hand unbelieving Jews are not apart of this Kingdom, not to say they cant . Jesus told Jews unless you repent and believe your will not enter the Kingdom of God. They are the branches which were broken off. The Kingdom of God was taken from the them as the scriptures tell us. How can the Olive tree be the nation of Israel if they were broken off from it referring to those that dint have faith in Christ. Mat 21:42-43 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? (43) Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. In that parable, Jesus was not talking to "The Jews." He was talking to the corrupt religious leaders (symbolized by the wicked husbandmen). He told a certain group of leaders that the Kingdom (Israel) was being taken from them. Their leadership over Israel was being taken from them and being transferred to the Apostles. The Kingdom was never taken away from the Jews in toto. No one is born into the Kingdom of God by flesh but by the faith of Abraham. Not all Jews were true Jews. Being a descendant of Abraham does not make you a Child of God. Uh, every Jew is a true Jew. "Jew" is a physical, not a spiritual term. The Bible never spiritualizes "Jew." Every person who is descendent from the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a Jew and that is the only context in which the term "Jew" is defined in the Bible. Unbelieving Jews are no less Jewish than believing ones. Paul calls the unbelieving Jews His people is brothers and kinsman after the flesh. They were, just as Jewish as Paul. Israel is referring to believing Jews.The Bible does not limit its usage that way. We don't boast ourselves above or better then each other because we are equal in God. Actually Paul's warning to the Gentiles was not to boast against the branches that had been broken off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 2, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 635 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2009 We do agree that Jew and Gentile are one in Messiah. As far as salvation goes, we are all on the same boat. No one challenges this. Ok great. However, Paul said there is much advantage to being a Jew. Advantages over who? and What advantages are there if you deny Christ? Please list them.... He also said: 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, and 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. (Rom. 11) Thus as far as ministry and as far as the plans and purposes of God go, there is a distinction. But as Yod pointed out, this isn't favoritism on God's part. They have one design and calling, we have another. In our unity, functioning as we were designed to be, believing Jews as Jews and believing Gentiles as Gentiles, the Kingdom of God will advance. I never denied that God will restore Israel in the Last days, but it will be under the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant. God is not going to restore animal sacrifices and Mosaic Law. If that is what your thinking. The New Covenant that we belong to is the New Covenant that is made with Israel: Thus, we have been joined into God's Covenant with Israel. Yes, the New Covenant was for Israel but not many received it. Only a small portions out of all Israel choose to follow and believe in the New Covenant which is was in Christ their Messiah. Many were called but only few chose to follow, but his was part of Gods ultimate plan to take salvation to the world. Yes we have been joined with Israel who believe, into the New Covenant. We are not joined with those who deny the one who offered the new covenant. A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties both sides must agree to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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