Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 5, 2009 The problem is this, your lumping all Christians into this false guilt trip of torturing and persecuting Jews. Which is an insult to all believers. Jedi - Jesus redeemed the world by standing in the place of the sinners. The only way the Church can heal the wounds inflicted on the Jews by "Christians" or people "claiming to be Christians" is to likewise stand in the place of the sinners. Please forgive me but that makes not sence at all to me. Your going to have to explain yourself. I hope this is not about what I think this is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 5, 2009 It simply means that to the Jews we represent the "Christians" who have persecuted the Jews, and we appologize to them for all that has been inflicted on them and their femily and ancestors in the name of Jesus - and in the name of Jesus we "wash their feet" - either physically as a symbol or represented in some other way. It's amazing how far a simple, humble apology can work to heal wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 very good point, shiloh! You made the point that you have an ungodly dose of resentment toward Christians. Why do you bother being a Christian if you have so much hatred toward them? I didn't see that? I saw Shiloh telling you the factual history of the situation. Apparently you don't like it (who does?) and instead of addressing the veracity of the report, you assumed malice on Shiloh's part. I'll say it since he won't.... The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of European christians throughout the history of christendom were either 1. Actively and physically persecuting jews 2. Supporting this persecution by their words (Martin Luther - "On Jews and their Lies") 3. Supporting this persecution by their indifference and silence as it happened all around them. Since "christianity" as we know it today is more european than semitic, this prejudice still exists in an institutional bias that has forgotten how it got there. Even your refusal to acknowledge this is true would indicate an arrogance towards the natural branches which just isn't healthy, bro. No one is blaming you for entire villages of jews being burned in their synagogues by christians of Europe....but to act like its not a big deal or has no bearing on whether jews can receive the gospel of their Messiah through the people who murdered them is intellectually dishonest and I think much more highly of you than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. Isaiah 62:6-7 Maranatha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 very good point, shiloh! You made the point that you have an ungodly dose of resentment toward Christians. Why do you bother being a Christian if you have so much hatred toward them? That is ridiculous. Nothing I said is the product of any resentment toward anyone. I am simply telling you what the historical record shows. You are simply unwilling to be honest about the historical record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 6, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2009 It simply means that to the Jews we represent the "Christians" who have persecuted the Jews, and we appologize to them for all that has been inflicted on them and their femily and ancestors in the name of Jesus - and in the name of Jesus we "wash their feet" - either physically as a symbol or represented in some other way. It's amazing how far a simple, humble apology can work to heal wounds. I got a better idea, how about they both serve each other and acknowledge each others wrong doings. Jews admitting their wrong and persecution of Christians and Chrstians admitting their wrong doing of Jews. Even in Israel today, if a Jew turns to Christ he is considered an outcast and cut-off from Isreal. You can be a Jew and be a Atheist, Homosexual, Murderer, and do all manner of evil and still be considered a Jew but once you confess Yahshua as Messiah they are cut-off from their people and are no longer consider to be a Jew. They are considered as "gentile dogs" in the eyes of most Jews. Much of the ideology has crept into many Messianic circles. They don't want to be identified with other gentile Christians. They hold on to this false teaching that salvation can be obtained by being a Jew even with out following Christ. They look at gentile Christians as degenerates who ripped off their religion. They hold to this false doctrine that the Church is only for Gentiles and teach that Jews who are Christians must continue to follow Judaism. When will they acknowlege their mistreatment of Christians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 6, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I got a better idea, how about they both serve each other and acknowledge each others wrong doings. Jews admitting their wrong and persecution of Christians and Chrstians admitting their wrong doing of Jews. Does the death of James . . . no wait, that was Herod who killed him - Does the death of Stephen offend you? Do you feel hurt by it? Did you lose family members, get ousted from your home from the persecution from the Jews against the first century believers? Even in Israel today, if a Jew turns to Christ he is considered an outcast and cut-off from Isreal. You can be a Jew and be a Atheist, Homosexual, Murderer, and do all manner of evil and still be considered a Jew but once you confess Yahshua as Messiah they are cut-off from their people and are no longer consider to be a Jew. They are considered as "gentile dogs" in the eyes of most Jews. That's not as bad as what happens to a Muslim who turns to Jesus. Being considered an outcast is pretty mild in comparison, you know. Much of the ideology has crept into many Messianic circles. They don't want to be identified with other gentile Christians. They hold on to this false teaching that salvation can be obtained by being a Jew even with out following Christ. They look at gentile Christians as degenerates who ripped off their religion. They hold to this false doctrine that the Church is only for Gentiles and teach that Jews who are Christians must continue to follow Judaism. It is very hard for a Jew who comes to faith in Messiah. Gentile believers want to strip them of their Jewish identity and their families regard them as "siding with the enemy." I'd be pretty lost too if I were in that boat. When will they acknowlege their mistreatment of Christians? At least they aren't burning them alive, raping the women, cutting their heads off . . . . That's how the Muslims mistreat Christians. And you are all worked up about the Jews? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 6, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 6, 2009 When will they acknowlege their mistreatment of Christians? And by the way - What did Jesus tell us to do about our enemies and persecuters? Would Jesus have you demand an apology from them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I got a better idea, how about they both serve each other and acknowledge each others wrong doings. Jews admitting their wrong and persecution of Christians and Chrstians admitting their wrong doing of Jews. The problem is that Jews en masse, have not wronged the Christians. You might be able to point to some individuals, but the idea that "the Jews" persecuted the Christians simply is not historically accurate. You are trying the moral equivalence position and it simply isn't like that. You cannot compare 30 years of political persecution by a group of leaders to the whole 1,700 years of persecution that most Christians participated in over the centuries. There is simply no comparison. Even in Israel today, if a Jew turns to Christ he is considered an outcast and cut-off from Isreal. You can be a Jew and be a Atheist, Homosexual, Murderer, and do all manner of evil and still be considered a Jew but once you confess Yahshua as Messiah they are cut-off from their people and are no longer consider to be a Jew. They are considered as "gentile dogs" in the eyes of most Jews. Yes, but that is because "Christian" to an Orthodox Jew brings up 1,700 years of persecution. To become a Christian to a Jewish family is to affirm the persecution of their ancestors. It was not the atheists, or homosexuals that committed pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, or the Holocaust. All of those things were done by people proclaiming Christ and had even developed an entire theology to justify their actions. Becoming a Christian to a Jew is to align one's self with a relgion that bitterly persecuted the Jews. So if a Jew is persecuted by other Jews for becoming a Christian you can thank men like Martin Luther, Augustine, John Crysostom, Origen, Justinian, Constantine for their anti-Semitic theology and virtually every Christian living in the Middle Ages who followed them and you can thank the millions of silent Christians who didn't lift a finger or a voice in opposition to the slaughter of six million Jews. You can thank all of those baptized Christians in good standing in the church in Germany who would weep while listening to a composition by Wagner, but had nothing but moral indiferrence in the face of Hitler's final solution. You can also thank theologians like Rudolf and Gerhard Kittel, who reference works are sold in nearly every Christian bookstore today, but who gave Hitler his theological basis for the Holocaust and were card carrying Nazis. Yet their books are still in high demand to this day. Much of the ideology has crept into many Messianic circles. They don't want to be identified with other gentile Christians.That is load of garbage. They hold on to this false teaching that salvation can be obtained by being a Jew even with out following Christ.Again, more made up crap. They look at gentile Christians as degenerates who ripped off their religion. They hold to this false doctrine that the Church is only for Gentiles and teach that Jews who are Christians must continue to follow Judaism. You are just full of it. You might find some fringe group that has unbiblical, radical ideas, but they do not represent the mainstream. Most Messianic congregations are 80-90% Gentile, and if you knew what you were talking about, you would know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted March 6, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted March 6, 2009 When will they acknowlege their mistreatment of Christians? And by the way - What did Jesus tell us to do about our enemies and persecuters? Would Jesus have you demand an apology from them? I simiply stated that if you want to bring up old wounds why not bring up old wounds from both sides. You have demanded an apology from All Christians even those that had nothing to do with Jews. What do you tell a new born Christian? Do you demand they go apologize for something that had nothing do with? What do you tell a Korean Christian? Do you demand they apologize to Jews whom they never knew? Do you see how rediculas this blame all Christians thing is. Christianity is not something are we born by flesh into and its not a generational thing passed down from from our fathers. Its an individual choice to follow Christ. Just because some individual or group decides to do something stupid does mean all Christians are guilty of it. Neither do I blame all Jews for persecuting Christians. That would be rediculas because many of them are Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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