The Pre-Trib Rapture, and the Book of Revelation

[Massorite]

The two passages of I Corinthians 15:51-58; I Thessalonians 4:13-18 our use by people who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture I don't believe in this theory but am honestly confused. I don't see how the rapture can come in I Corinthians 15, basically because I see death being swallow up in victory (v.54-55), my question is if the pre-trib rapture takes place here how can death be destroy here?

A second of three questions is in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, v. 15 says "...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." This seems to be talking about Jesus second coming, how then is this the pre-trib rapture?

A third question I think or maybe it just a statement of my poor study habits. When I first came to Christ I love to read the book of Revelation, but not for the right reason but instead to learn of the end times and the anti-christ not about our Saviour Jesus Christ. Does anyone know of a good book for the study of the Book of Revelation where the author keeps his/her eyes on Jesus?

Those who believe in the pre-trib concept often refuse to peek into other scriptures that do indeed discredit the pre-trib teaching. Scriptures like 1 Corinthians 15:52 that you have already observed. "In a moment in the twinkling of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed". This one single verse alone is a direct contradiction to the per-trib teaching because the pre-trib teaching, teaches that before the seven years of tribulation starts. The church will be raptured which means that we will be raptured even before the first trump is sounded. So when is it that the last trump will sound? Pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib? Lets do a process of elimination here. First we know that the seals will be opened first which means that they will be opened before the trumpets are sounded and after the seven years have already started. Next we go to the bowls. We know that the bowls are poured out after the trumpets are sounded and well after the seven years has started.

Basically this one single verse standing alone proves all by itself that the pre-trib teaching is non biblical and false.

Here is another single verse that puts the pre-trib teaching to shame. Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightening comes OUT OF THE EAST AND SHINES EVEN TO THE WEST; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".

The question here is "When does the lightening come out of the east and shines to the west?" The next time you are watching the TV and the weather comes on watch to see which way all weather travels and you will see that all weather travels from the west to the east. It may be going south east or north east but is always moving eastward. So when does the lightening come out of the east and shine to the west? AFTER THE STORM HAS ALREADY PAST. Because before the storm has past the lightening comes out of the west and shines to the east. This should be a real simple and logical verse to understand but it is ignored because it dies not fit in with the pre-trib teaching.

Paul the whole of the book of Revelation is all about Jesus as the center piece of all that is about to come upon us and I would not recommend reading any commentary about the book of Revelation and depend on the Holy Spirit to guild you. The only commentary I ever bought was done by a Jew from a Jewish prospective and this guy suggests that the "restrainer" is the satan because he will be bound and thrown into the pit. Man he is way off base.

As for 1 Thess 4:13-18 you are correct. These verses are talking about the resurrection but there is nothing about any pre-trib here.

[mizzdy]

Here is another single verse that puts the pre-trib teaching to shame. Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightening comes OUT OF THE EAST AND SHINES EVEN TO THE WEST; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".

The question here is "When does the lightening come out of the east and shines to the west?" The next time you are watching the TV and the weather comes on watch to see which way all weather travels and you will see that all weather travels from the west to the east. It may be going south east or north east but is always moving eastward. So when does the lightening come out of the east and shine to the west? AFTER THE STORM HAS ALREADY PAST. Because before the storm has past the lightening comes out of the west and shines to the east. This should be a real simple and logical verse to understand but it is ignored because it dies not fit in with the pre-trib teaching.

Thats a wonderful insight and one I had not connected with, thanks for enlightening me on.

[Massorite]

OK Murse maybe we can use this post. This time I will make it a little shorter if I can.

This is shorter!?! LOL, maybe we should exchange emails. J/K

The pre-trib concept teaches that the seven years will be the wrath of God. Basically they mix up the wrath of God and the great tribulation as being one and the same event. My question is always "If there is seven years of the wrath of God. When does the tribulation take place?" The word tribulation means "affliction" and the word "wrath" when speaking of the wrath of God means "punishment". They are actually two different events.

Last year there were several hundreds of thousands of Christians around the world who were killed in the name of Christ and here is what I always like to point out to those who preach the pre-trib concept.

Those Christians were beaten to death, burned alive, had their heads cut off, put in jail and tortured daily, some were even held over an open flame so the flames burned their bodies in an effort to force convert them, young girls and woman had acid thrown into their faces and I could go on.

So the big question is this. Did those Christians suffer the wrath of God or did they suffer great tribulation? We all know that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God so the only thing left is "great tribulation". What about the millions of Christians who died in the name of Christ during the first 300 years of the church? What was so different about them? How are we any better then they were.

Well, you're not entirely correct. Pre-tribbers, as myself, don't believe the entire seven years will be "wrathful". In fact, during this time period I believe their will be great peace in the lands. This is what's going to kick everything off. I believe whoever is the anti-christ, will somehow develop a peace treaty between Israel and the other lands. The Jews will see this as the coming of their Messiah. Keep in mind, The Jews rejected Jesus not only because He proclaimed Himself to be God, but because He didn't bring physical peace to a physical land how they believed it would be. This antichirst, will do just that. They will hail him as a messiah, erect the temple. This will be a joyous time for many. But, during this time period, there will also be the two witnesses. They will be preaching in the streets (Rev 11). Many believe, yet noone knows for sure, that this possibly could be Enoch and Elijah. These two never died, yet we know it is appointed for each man to die once. Though these two were OT prophets, they still saw the coming of the Messiah. Just as David prophecied about the coming Messiah, so did these two. These prophets will be a warning to the Jews that they have missed and rejected what was intended for them. We know that they will be given power...we know they will be killed. It is also important to note how the seals/trumpets/ and bowls run in order. Many believe that some are simutaneous, but if read carefully, you can see the seventh seal is the prelude to the trumpets and than the bowls. So if the seals and trumpets are the first half and the bowls are the last half, we must look into the seals and trumpets to see if there is only tribulation within them and not wrath.

In the trumpets, we see plagues though. Even in the OT when Moses prophesied the plagues to come on Egypt, the Jews were not harmed. Even death "passedover" them if the blood was covering their door way.

Now, you do make many interesting points. But one thing you have to keep in mind, is that God's tribulation and wrath are different than persecutions we must endure through on a day to day basis. We see persecution all the time. Look how many hate us for what we believe. Look how many are trying to shut us up. Look how many would love for us to just go away. They look at us like a "cancer", I have been told. If we were to be taken in the beginning, how many would rejoice? But these persecutions are not of God...they are from the world. The time to come upon the world...tribulation and wrath, is from God himself. He does not appoint His children to wrath and or plagues. He even said He would keep us from such a time. I think that is important to understand that God "allows" tribulation to happen in our lives, but I wouldn't say He "causes" it. does that make sense?

Any time there is much discussion about the pre-trib teaching almost no body ever talks about the significance of the three and one half years spoken about in several places in both the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation. The 3 1/2 years is spoken of as a time and times and dividing of time, a time and times and half a time, 42 months, 1260 days, the ministry of the two witnesses is 3 1/2 years, in chapter 12 of Revelation Israel is protected for 3 1/2 years, In Daniel the antichrist will make a deal/covenant with Isreal for seven years and in mid week (3 1/2 years into the seven years) he breaks his promise to Isreal.

So what is it about the 3 1/2 years mark? Why is it so important that it is spoken of so many times.

You see my brother the church isn't going to be rebuilt after the resurrection because when Jesus comes back for His bride the Holy Spirit will be taken also. because then the wrath of God will come upon the word and it is not going to be any kind of testing for the world it will be punishment for the world. Why will the Holy Spirit be removed? Because the Holy Spirit is that part of God that spews grace and love. It is kind of like oil ands water. One can not mix with the other and the same goes for the Holy Spirit and the wrath of God. They both can not abide or dominate on the earth at the same time.

But Isreal will be protected from the wrath of God just like they were in Egypt. When there were frogs in Egypt there were no frogs in Goshen, when the water turned to blood in Egypt the water in Goshen was still sweet and so on.

Here is what I believe. There will be a seven year period in which a period of tribulation will take place and a period of the wrath of God will take place. The tribulation period will take place in the first half of the seven and the resurrection will take place at the end of the tribulation period at the 3 1/2 years mark. The second half will be when the wrath of God comes to earth. I believe that the new temple will be built before or during the first 3 1/2 years and when the antichrist sits in the temple and claims to be God is when all hell breaks loose on earth.

See, once again, I don't feel you truly understand pre-trib teaching...not saying you are ignorant, by no means, you are very smart, but we look at the time line with GREAT importance. As you can tell, I love this stuff!!! Eschatology has always been a passion of mine. But to break down Revelation, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Isaiah into a commentary...would take pages and pages. And as we can see, you and I have been quite long winded already!! LOL

Just look up these scriptures: Daniel 12:1, Ish 26:19, Luke 17:30, Luke 21:35-36, Rev 3:10. I know another has posted these in a different post, but these are very good. They are worth reposting.

At the end of the seven years Jesus will return and begin to reign for a 1000 years.

As far as the church doing any healing during a tribulation period goes it would behoove you to study what the early church was like during great tribulation.

The early church had great tribulation but smack dab in the middle of that great tribulation was great revival. The Spirit of God flowed so much so that many of the unsaved who witnessed the suffering of the of the early Christians were moved to be saved because they could see that in the middle of all of their suffering they never lost their spark and the unsaved could see that and wanted what they had.

So could miracles happen during great tribulation? Yes! Why? Because it has already been that way once.

You are correct when you say that the church will be tested during great tribulation. But God will be in the middle of that great tribulation with us giving us strength to endure to the end.

You make it sound like I haven't studied the bible nor the early churches, in fact, I've done much studying in this area. I'm not saying that the churches didn't produce fruit from tribulational periods. If my words were mixed, I appologize for that. Let me clear up my thoughts. First, it is important to understand the healings you talk about. Healings come from God and only God. The reason the first church apostles and disciples were able to "lay hands" on people and heal, was to show they were of God. That they were preaching a true gospel. Even in our letters healings now are to be done by contacting the elders of the church in order for them to "pray over" the person...not touch them. But this is a different discussion for a different post. My point though, Is that if God ordains tribulation and wrath, by us healing, would go against His will. We have no such power to do so. A very weak example is that if God himself dug a hole because He wanted it and ordained it...and we were to come along and fill it in. I know, this is the best I can do at this moment...my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. LOL

I agree. The Jews are still the apple of the eye of God. Proof of that is the fact that Israel is surrounded by their enemies 43 to one and are not destroyed. But no Jew will be going to heaven or receive eternal life unless they except Christ. Which means that unless they except Christ they can not be the elect. We who are saved know what angels desire to know but an unsaved Jew does not know what we know.

My point is that because we are saved we are equal to the saved Jew but above the unsaved Jew. I guess if you don't see by what I have said that we are no different then any saved Jew. Oh well.

We should remember that Jesus was offered to us only after the Jews rejected Him first. When you graft a limb to a tree that limb b becomes part of that tree and after a while one can not tell the difference between the grafted limb and the tree.

And yes we must stick together period.

Be Blessed

Robert

Ok, I can agree that we are equal to the Jews now...But we are in the Church age. If the pre-trib rapture is correct, the church age will be over. I know this is difficult for some to understand because they think by me saying the church age is over, that the age of grace is complete as well. This is simply not the case. I believe the removal of the church is simply God picking up where He left off in Daniel. Does this mean that people can now get to Heaven in this time without Christ? NO!! Israel has been waiting for their Messiah for thousands of years. We know that many OT jews made it to Heaven before Christ came. How? They had the law of God written on their hearts...they followed the law and waited with faith for their Messiah. They were righteous before God, because He knows the hearts of men. Because the church age is over, does not mean that many Jews will not realize they missed the messiah. Im sure the two witnesses will bring forth much fruit. They will do this by preaching the gospel. The gospel today is to be spread by US. If we are gone, it will be left to another to do...God's word will always be heard one way or another.

Ok, I could go on forever...I've said enough though. Take care my brother...and Yes, you are so correct, we must stick together, period!!

With love in Christ.

Oh well, I try but it seems to be real hard for me to be short. LOL No insult intended about whether or not you have studied. I just don't know if you have unless you tell me. And no insult taken on anything you have said.

You told me that pre-trib believers do not believe that the seven years will not be the wrath of God so I went in search of some pre-trib web sites that do teach seven years of the wrath of God and if you go there you will see that they call the seven years of tribulation the wrath of God also.

You can trust that I do not make assertions that I can't up back. At the least I try to do the best I can at all times.

I bet I love this stuff more then you. In fact I love it so much I wrote a book on it that nobody wants to read. LOL

Tribulation--affliction, trouble, pressure, distress (John 16:33).

The Tribulation--the final seven years before Christ returns to the earth. Also referred to as Daniel's 70th week.

The Great Tribulation--the last 3

[Massorite]

Here is another single verse that puts the pre-trib teaching to shame. Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightening comes OUT OF THE EAST AND SHINES EVEN TO THE WEST; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".

The question here is "When does the lightening come out of the east and shines to the west?" The next time you are watching the TV and the weather comes on watch to see which way all weather travels and you will see that all weather travels from the west to the east. It may be going south east or north east but is always moving eastward. So when does the lightening come out of the east and shine to the west? AFTER THE STORM HAS ALREADY PAST. Because before the storm has past the lightening comes out of the west and shines to the east. This should be a real simple and logical verse to understand but it is ignored because it dies not fit in with the pre-trib teaching.

Thats a wonderful insight and one I had not connected with, thanks for enlightening me on.

You are very welcome.

[Massorite]

OK Murse maybe we can use this post. This time I will make it a little shorter if I can.

This is shorter!?! LOL, maybe we should exchange emails. J/K

The pre-trib concept teaches that the seven years will be the wrath of God. Basically they mix up the wrath of God and the great tribulation as being one and the same event. My question is always "If there is seven years of the wrath of God. When does the tribulation take place?" The word tribulation means "affliction" and the word "wrath" when speaking of the wrath of God means "punishment". They are actually two different events.

Last year there were several hundreds of thousands of Christians around the world who were killed in the name of Christ and here is what I always like to point out to those who preach the pre-trib concept.

Those Christians were beaten to death, burned alive, had their heads cut off, put in jail and tortured daily, some were even held over an open flame so the flames burned their bodies in an effort to force convert them, young girls and woman had acid thrown into their faces and I could go on.

So the big question is this. Did those Christians suffer the wrath of God or did they suffer great tribulation? We all know that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God so the only thing left is "great tribulation". What about the millions of Christians who died in the name of Christ during the first 300 years of the church? What was so different about them? How are we any better then they were.

Well, you're not entirely correct. Pre-tribbers, as myself, don't believe the entire seven years will be "wrathful". In fact, during this time period I believe their will be great peace in the lands. This is what's going to kick everything off. I believe whoever is the anti-christ, will somehow develop a peace treaty between Israel and the other lands. The Jews will see this as the coming of their Messiah. Keep in mind, The Jews rejected Jesus not only because He proclaimed Himself to be God, but because He didn't bring physical peace to a physical land how they believed it would be. This antichirst, will do just that. They will hail him as a messiah, erect the temple. This will be a joyous time for many. But, during this time period, there will also be the two witnesses. They will be preaching in the streets (Rev 11). Many believe, yet noone knows for sure, that this possibly could be Enoch and Elijah. These two never died, yet we know it is appointed for each man to die once. Though these two were OT prophets, they still saw the coming of the Messiah. Just as David prophecied about the coming Messiah, so did these two. These prophets will be a warning to the Jews that they have missed and rejected what was intended for them. We know that they will be given power...we know they will be killed. It is also important to note how the seals/trumpets/ and bowls run in order. Many believe that some are simutaneous, but if read carefully, you can see the seventh seal is the prelude to the trumpets and than the bowls. So if the seals and trumpets are the first half and the bowls are the last half, we must look into the seals and trumpets to see if there is only tribulation within them and not wrath.

In the trumpets, we see plagues though. Even in the OT when Moses prophesied the plagues to come on Egypt, the Jews were not harmed. Even death "passedover" them if the blood was covering their door way.

Now, you do make many interesting points. But one thing you have to keep in mind, is that God's tribulation and wrath are different than persecutions we must endure through on a day to day basis. We see persecution all the time. Look how many hate us for what we believe. Look how many are trying to shut us up. Look how many would love for us to just go away. They look at us like a "cancer", I have been told. If we were to be taken in the beginning, how many would rejoice? But these persecutions are not of God...they are from the world. The time to come upon the world...tribulation and wrath, is from God himself. He does not appoint His children to wrath and or plagues. He even said He would keep us from such a time. I think that is important to understand that God "allows" tribulation to happen in our lives, but I wouldn't say He "causes" it. does that make sense?

Any time there is much discussion about the pre-trib teaching almost no body ever talks about the significance of the three and one half years spoken about in several places in both the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation. The 3 1/2 years is spoken of as a time and times and dividing of time, a time and times and half a time, 42 months, 1260 days, the ministry of the two witnesses is 3 1/2 years, in chapter 12 of Revelation Israel is protected for 3 1/2 years, In Daniel the antichrist will make a deal/covenant with Isreal for seven years and in mid week (3 1/2 years into the seven years) he breaks his promise to Isreal.

So what is it about the 3 1/2 years mark? Why is it so important that it is spoken of so many times.

You see my brother the church isn't going to be rebuilt after the resurrection because when Jesus comes back for His bride the Holy Spirit will be taken also. because then the wrath of God will come upon the word and it is not going to be any kind of testing for the world it will be punishment for the world. Why will the Holy Spirit be removed? Because the Holy Spirit is that part of God that spews grace and love. It is kind of like oil ands water. One can not mix with the other and the same goes for the Holy Spirit and the wrath of God. They both can not abide or dominate on the earth at the same time.

But Isreal will be protected from the wrath of God just like they were in Egypt. When there were frogs in Egypt there were no frogs in Goshen, when the water turned to blood in Egypt the water in Goshen was still sweet and so on.

Here is what I believe. There will be a seven year period in which a period of tribulation will take place and a period of the wrath of God will take place. The tribulation period will take place in the first half of the seven and the resurrection will take place at the end of the tribulation period at the 3 1/2 years mark. The second half will be when the wrath of God comes to earth. I believe that the new temple will be built before or during the first 3 1/2 years and when the antichrist sits in the temple and claims to be God is when all hell breaks loose on earth.

See, once again, I don't feel you truly understand pre-trib teaching...not saying you are ignorant, by no means, you are very smart, but we look at the time line with GREAT importance. As you can tell, I love this stuff!!! Eschatology has always been a passion of mine. But to break down Revelation, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Isaiah into a commentary...would take pages and pages. And as we can see, you and I have been quite long winded already!! LOL

Just look up these scriptures: Daniel 12:1, Ish 26:19, Luke 17:30, Luke 21:35-36, Rev 3:10. I know another has posted these in a different post, but these are very good. They are worth reposting.

At the end of the seven years Jesus will return and begin to reign for a 1000 years.

As far as the church doing any healing during a tribulation period goes it would behoove you to study what the early church was like during great tribulation.

The early church had great tribulation but smack dab in the middle of that great tribulation was great revival. The Spirit of God flowed so much so that many of the unsaved who witnessed the suffering of the of the early Christians were moved to be saved because they could see that in the middle of all of their suffering they never lost their spark and the unsaved could see that and wanted what they had.

So could miracles happen during great tribulation? Yes! Why? Because it has already been that way once.

You are correct when you say that the church will be tested during great tribulation. But God will be in the middle of that great tribulation with us giving us strength to endure to the end.

You make it sound like I haven't studied the bible nor the early churches, in fact, I've done much studying in this area. I'm not saying that the churches didn't produce fruit from tribulational periods. If my words were mixed, I appologize for that. Let me clear up my thoughts. First, it is important to understand the healings you talk about. Healings come from God and only God. The reason the first church apostles and disciples were able to "lay hands" on people and heal, was to show they were of God. That they were preaching a true gospel. Even in our letters healings now are to be done by contacting the elders of the church in order for them to "pray over" the person...not touch them. But this is a different discussion for a different post. My point though, Is that if God ordains tribulation and wrath, by us healing, would go against His will. We have no such power to do so. A very weak example is that if God himself dug a hole because He wanted it and ordained it...and we were to come along and fill it in. I know, this is the best I can do at this moment...my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. LOL

I agree. The Jews are still the apple of the eye of God. Proof of that is the fact that Israel is surrounded by their enemies 43 to one and are not destroyed. But no Jew will be going to heaven or receive eternal life unless they except Christ. Which means that unless they except Christ they can not be the elect. We who are saved know what angels desire to know but an unsaved Jew does not know what we know.

My point is that because we are saved we are equal to the saved Jew but above the unsaved Jew. I guess if you don't see by what I have said that we are no different then any saved Jew. Oh well.

We should remember that Jesus was offered to us only after the Jews rejected Him first. When you graft a limb to a tree that limb b becomes part of that tree and after a while one can not tell the difference between the grafted limb and the tree.

And yes we must stick together period.

Be Blessed

Robert

Ok, I can agree that we are equal to the Jews now...But we are in the Church age. If the pre-trib rapture is correct, the church age will be over. I know this is difficult for some to understand because they think by me saying the church age is over, that the age of grace is complete as well. This is simply not the case. I believe the removal of the church is simply God picking up where He left off in Daniel. Does this mean that people can now get to Heaven in this time without Christ? NO!! Israel has been waiting for their Messiah for thousands of years. We know that many OT jews made it to Heaven before Christ came. How? They had the law of God written on their hearts...they followed the law and waited with faith for their Messiah. They were righteous before God, because He knows the hearts of men. Because the church age is over, does not mean that many Jews will not realize they missed the messiah. Im sure the two witnesses will bring forth much fruit. They will do this by preaching the gospel. The gospel today is to be spread by US. If we are gone, it will be left to another to do...God's word will always be heard one way or another.

Ok, I could go on forever...I've said enough though. Take care my brother...and Yes, you are so correct, we must stick together, period!!

With love in Christ.

Hey Murse, what would you say if I told you that nobody has ever gone to heaven except those who have been taken without ever tasting of death? And that there is no place written anywhere in the bible that say that we do go to heaven, as soon as we die?

[Maranathanna]

"Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightening comes OUT OF THE EAST AND SHINES EVEN TO THE WEST; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".

The question here is "When does the lightening come out of the east and shines to the west?" The next time you are watching the TV and the weather comes on watch to see which way all weather travels and you will see that all weather travels from the west to the east."

I'm not sure who posted the above but allow me to say this about that ... when King Jesus Yeshua touches His Feet down on the Mt. of Olives (which is when we return with Him), it will be reverberating all around the world ... there will be supernatural events happening, the splitting of the Mt. of Olives via an earthquake, the lightning ... events will happen that will not allow explanations in the natural.

[Murse32]

Hey Murse, what would you say if I told you that nobody has ever gone to heaven except those who have been taken without ever tasting of death? And that there is no place written anywhere in the bible that say that we do go to heaven, as soon as we die?

Oh, I would probably ask you where you think we go considering Jesus swallowed and conquered death with His sacrifice. And than I would quote:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

and Rev 4:4 (considering you are a mid-tribber, hard for you to refute) Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

[Maranathanna]

As I am 'new' here, may I ask if anyone here has considered this verse (in addition to numerous other verses, line upon line as the Bible confirms itself, right?) for the pre-tribulation catching away of the church?:

Isaiah 26:20, "come, my people, enter into your rooms and close the doors behind you; hide for a little while until the indignation runs its course."

1 Thessalonians 1:10, "who delivers us from the wrath to come."

[Murse32]

[Massorite]

Hey Murse, what would you say if I told you that nobody has ever gone to heaven except those who have been taken without ever tasting of death? And that there is no place written anywhere in the bible that say that we do go to heaven, as soon as we die?

Oh, I would probably ask you where you think we go considering Jesus swallowed and conquered death with His sacrifice. And than I would quote:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

and Rev 4:4 (considering you are a mid-tribber, hard for you to refute) Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

I have had many a discussion about 2 Corinthians 5:8 and there is nothing in that verse that tells us that when we die we will go straight to heaven.

What the verse says is that we WOULD "WILLING RATHER BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD". It does not say that we "WILL BE" absent from the body and present with the Lord when we die. It simply says that we would rather be in that condition. So where in this verse does it say that when we die we will be absent from the body?

Yes I am a mid tribber and I spent seven years studying the book of Revelation. Because of my studies I have come to the conclusion that "If it is not written in the bible it does not exist" and that my brother is how I live.

First of all there is no where in the bible that tells us who these elders are. They could be men and they could be angels. Many speculate that because there are twenty four elders that twelve are the sons of Israel and twelve are the disciples of Christ. But Reuben, Simeon, Levi and Dan were cursed by their father because of the condition of their heart and only the death of Joseph is recorded in the bible and the bible doesn't say he went to heaven. Up until Abraham, according to scripture not one single man had been considered Righteous. So where is the scriptural proof that the twenty four elders are men who have been redeemed from among men and what are those elders, elders of?

What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross? He said "This day you shall be with me in paradise". and what did does Paul say Jesus did when He died? Paul says that Jesus "first descended into the lower reaches of th earth". So that day when Jesus went down to the lower reaches of the earth the thief went with Him. But the thief didn't rise up to heaven with Him.

Paradise or hell is where we go when we die. Because if we are already in heaven when Jesus comes back there wouldn't be any "dead in Christ" or "any who sleep in Christ" to be raised from the grave because they would already be in heaven, and what about the reapers/angels that Jesus will be bringing with him from heaven. Who will they be picking up if all of the dead in Christ are already in heaven?

Is there any scriptural proof that tells us how or why we need to leave heaven and come back to the grave so we can be raised from the grave again to meet Jesus in the air?

If all of the dead in Christ have already been raised from the grave and made incorruptible there would be no more reason to speak of the dead in Christ as if they were still corrupted. But the bible clearly says that on the day that Jesus returns the dead in Christ will be raised from the grave. But if all who have died in Christ are already in heaven then who would those dead in Christ be when Jesus returns and where did they come from.

Lets say that I die exactly one hour from now and go directly to heaven and in three hours from now Jesus returns to raise me up out of the grave. Would I have to return from heaven and reinhabate the grave and my corrupted body so I can be resurrected? What about somebody who died 100 years ago? Would they need to leave heaven in order to re-inhabate the grave and what is left of their corrupted body so they can be raised from the grave to meet Jesus again? I mean after all if they have already been in heaven for 100 years of our time surely they have already seen and spoken to Jesus while He was sitting on the right side of God right?