Ddavid from NC Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 196 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,343 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Is Once Saved Always Saved true. I know that my only hope is Jesus. I know that salvation can come by no other way. But can I lose it. If my life doesn't produce good fruit? Will Christ reject me if I don't forgive my fellow brother for wronging me. I was born again at 22. I truely believe that when I asked him to be my Lord and saved me, that I meant it, every word. What if when I asking him to be my Lord and Savior, the answer was no. I have so many question and would like to hear your thoughts of both sides of the coin. Is Once Saved Always Saved, true or not. Yes salvation can be lost. One can't get saved and live like hell the rest of their life and expect to go to heaven. We have to fight the good fight, endure to the end of the world or our lives. We will never cross the finish line if we quit half way through the race and guess what. If you don't cross the finish line you don,t get the reward. Why do you think the word of God us about the great falling away in 2 Thess 2:3? The words "falling away "are speaking of a great departure from the faith". Which means the a great many Christians who are saved and believe in Christ are going to stop believing that Jesus was the son of God and cast Him out of their lives. Do you think that will still go to heaven or do you think they will recieve their just rewards? There is no scriptural proof written anywhere in the bible that supports the idea of OSAS and if it not clearly written in the word of God it is not. If salvation is lost, it must be earned, therefore it would not be grace. If is not based on grace you nor I have any hope. It is by grace we are saved thru faith...it is a gift of God. My (new) birth not my behavior determines my eternal destination. My behavior determines whether heavenly Father chastises or blesses me as a saint. It really is that elementary. God does not disown a rebellious child, that is a human tendency. The story of the Lost Son illustrates this truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I think what it often comes down to though is not falling into the pit of despair over our sins. We know that according to scripture we all sin, and we also know that sin itself will send us to hell. So given that we know that we are saved by grace alone, not by any merit in what we do. The problem is, that this faith has implications for behavior, Christ said that how you love me is not just with your mind, but by following my commandments, if we don't attempt to follow the commandments we do not love Christ, if we do not love Christ we do not have faith, regardless of how much we talk or pray about it. The bible also is clear that there are cases in which people believe that they are saved and they are not. You have the parable of the sower from Christ Himself, we have the passages from Hebrews, we have the passages from Galatians and Corinthians that say those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom. Of course there are also the famous words of Christ that not one of His will be lost. You cannot fit these passages and teachings into either one of the boxes we are arguing about in a neat way, and thus we argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted March 5, 2009 in the bible it says not even the angels can pry me from his hands thats sounds pretty permanent to me arrow You are correct. However God gave us salvation because we asked for it and we can give our salvation back by backsliding into unrepeated sin and never repenting from it. Thanks to that very deceiving evil doctrinal teaching I know people who are hard core alcoholics and truly think that they are saved because there was a time in their life when they were hard core serious about their salvation and got saved. But the things of this world got them down and instead of keeping their face directed at Christ they turned to the things of this world for comfort and do get angry when I try to talk to them about it. My brother in-law actually thinks that he can get drunk every single day of his life and that God thinks that it is OK because he got saved who knows how many years ago. The bible distinctly says in 1 Cor. 5:10 that no drunkards shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. So if you are saved and when you die you are a drunkard at the time will you inherit the kingdom of heaven? Or will it be that you die and you are a drunkard you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven just like the bible says? Many say "well that person was never saved in the first place". Don't believe one word of that statement because they have no idea whether or not a person is saved or not, only God knows that. As for me I was saved and when I came up out of that water I loved everybody. I was filled with the Holy Spirit of God and high as a kite with it. A feeling that is so wonderful that there is no real way describe it. But then I was church hurt and said to my self "if that is the way Christians are then I don't want no part of it" and proceeded to backslide into drunkenness and stayed that way for over 20 years. I can tell you for a fact that if I had died during that 20 years I would have went straight to hell and the worst part about it was that I knew it and didn't care. But praise God that He didn't give up on me. So the fact of the matter is that the OSAS doctrine is a horrible distortion of the word of God and many have fallen because they believed it and figured they would still go to heaven any ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Is Once Saved Always Saved true. I know that my only hope is Jesus. I know that salvation can come by no other way. But can I lose it. If my life doesn't produce good fruit? Will Christ reject me if I don't forgive my fellow brother for wronging me. I was born again at 22. I truely believe that when I asked him to be my Lord and saved me, that I meant it, every word. What if when I asking him to be my Lord and Savior, the answer was no. I have so many question and would like to hear your thoughts of both sides of the coin. Is Once Saved Always Saved, true or not. Yes salvation can be lost. One can't get saved and live like hell the rest of their life and expect to go to heaven. We have to fight the good fight, endure to the end of the world or our lives. We will never cross the finish line if we quit half way through the race and guess what. If you don't cross the finish line you don,t get the reward. Why do you think the word of God us about the great falling away in 2 Thess 2:3? The words "falling away "are speaking of a great departure from the faith". Which means the a great many Christians who are saved and believe in Christ are going to stop believing that Jesus was the son of God and cast Him out of their lives. Do you think that will still go to heaven or do you think they will receive their just rewards? There is no scriptural proof written anywhere in the bible that supports the idea of OSAS and if it not clearly written in the word of God it is not. If salvation is lost, it must be earned, therefore it would not be grace. If is not based on grace you nor I have any hope. It is by grace we are saved thru faith...it is a gift of God. My (new) birth not my behavior determines my eternal destination. My behavior determines whether heavenly Father chastises or blesses me as a saint. It really is that elementary. God does not disown a rebellious child, that is a human tendency. The story of the Lost Son illustrates this truth. Your logic here is really off base. If salvation can be lost why does it have to be earned? Why can't it be given by grace and given back by the freewill of a man? And where in the bible does it tell us that our ACTIONS will not be judged? Where in the bible does it tell us that ONLY our salvation will be judged? The bible clearly tells us that every action we take saved or not will be judged. The prodigal son never rejected his father as in "I hate you and never want to see you again". He simply made some very poor decisions and payed the price for it. How can you explain away the unforgivable sin? IE the rejection of the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to commit the unforgivable sin unless we know what we are doing when we do it and an unsaved person can never know anything about Jesus much less the Holy Spirit unless they are saved. If OSAS were true then there would not be an unforgivable sin of any kind. Your behavior dictates how much of the power of the Holy Spirit is in your life. Have you ever committed fornication after you were saved? I have and I can tell you that it is the single most horrible feeling I have ever had because I grieved the Holy Spirit. What does David say? I was undone. Did God forgive me? Yes He did but I can tell you that it took some time before the Holy Spirit was back to what it was before I committed fornication. Now what if I hadn't repented and continued to commit fornication? Soon my conscience would grow weaker and weaker until there was none. And the presents of the Holy Spirit in my life would grow weaker and weaker until I could not feel it any longer. Then what? What if I never felt guilty about what I was doing ever again. What if the Holy Spirit stopped convicting me about it? My brother I can tell you from experience that alcohol will dull the Holy Spirit until you can not feel it any longer. Until there is no more conscience about it. Besides like I have already pointed out. If you are a drunkard or a whormonger or a child molester or a drug user and so on you will not inherit the kingdom of heaven which proves that our ACTIONS do indeed dictate where we will spent eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Is Once Saved Always Saved true. I know that my only hope is Jesus. I know that salvation can come by no other way. But can I lose it. If my life doesn't produce good fruit? Will Christ reject me if I don't forgive my fellow brother for wronging me.Lets get this made clear from the start. Christ rejects no one. whether you never get saved or if you turn from your salvation after once receiving it. Jesus doesn't reject anyone it is us who rejects Him, and yes we can turn from our salvation if we choose to (it is a part of our free will) OSAS is not true, but that does not mean Christ rejected us. What evidence do you have of true free will - of absolutely free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Ezekiel 33, none of the verses you mentioned have to do with losing one's salvation. Who can make the blind see? Not me. But you can call them blind.........? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,273 Content Per Day: 4.84 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted March 5, 2009 The fact is the perseverance of the saints is not true because we can decide to walk away from our faith after salvation, plain and simple. Although free will is not the ''biggest'' and ''most important'' doctrine it is truth, and the calvinistic doctrines (including perseverance of the saints) that eliminate free will from the equation are false. Then you were never saved to begin with. That is part of what ES is all about. People who aspire to OSAS/ES and continue with their unchanged life have been taught incorrectly and should be corrected, because they are lost. That does NOT make ES/OSAS a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,273 Content Per Day: 4.84 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Who does not have eternal security: Those who profess but do not repent (Lk. 3:7-14) Acts 26:20. Those who have merer intellectual assent (Jn 2:23-25) James 2:17-20) Those who have self-willled faith, only believing what they want to believe rather than the testimony of the Scriptures (jn 6:60-66) and those who have religious zeal apart from the gospel (Ro 10:1-4) HOWEVER; if the disobedient Christian doesn't lose his salvation he will be out of fellowship with the Lord and his people (1 Jn 1:3-7). the sinning Christian is helped and loved by the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Jn 2:1-2) The sinning Christian is chastened by the Father (He. 12:5-11). The sinning Christian loses irreplaceable opportunities for service and fruit (Ep. 5:14-17) (mt. 9:36-38) (1 th. 5:4-10). The sinning Christian can be forgiven, but he cannot regain the lost opportunities and the hurt he has caused by his sin. The sinning Christian will suffer loss at the judgement seat of Christ (1 Co. 3:11-15) (2 Co 5:10) (1 Ti. 6:17-19) (1 Jn 2:28) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 5, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 5, 2009 The fact is the perseverance of the saints is not true because we can decide to walk away from our faith after salvation, plain and simple. Although free will is not the ''biggest'' and ''most important'' doctrine it is truth, and the calvinistic doctrines (including perseverance of the saints) that eliminate free will from the equation are false. Then you were never saved to begin with. That is part of what ES is all about. People who aspire to OSAS/ES and continue with their unchanged life have been taught incorrectly and should be corrected, because they are lost. That does NOT make ES/OSAS a lie. Scripture teaches that truly saved people can turn from their salvation. Actually, Scripture "teaches" no such thing. You may point to a number of verses and say, "these verses indicate that you can turn from your salvation," but you cannot say that Scripture "teaches" that. There is no passage in which Paul or any of the other writers of the New Testament "teach" the loss of salvation. That's what makes this issue problematic, and that's why the issue has not thus-far been settled between Calvinist and Arminian theologians: Neither side can successfully argue against the other that Scripture "teaches" their side. See, I can produce any number of Scriptures which support OSAS, just as you can produce those which support non-OSAS. The only thing we have left, then is a formulation of philosophy and reasoning to support our respective stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 But only God can make them see. Hungry? >>>>>()<<<<< Calling On The LORD "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13 Sitting Down With The KING "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20 Eating With Great Gusto And Blessing His Name "Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts." Jeremiah 15:16 Hallelujah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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