Alcohol

[Smalcald]

It seems that way to me although I am certainly not an expert. Although the wine used for example in Seder or used for the Last Supper or for the Lord's Supper in the New Testament Churches has the context of being fermented wine which could cause drunkenness.

[Ovedya]

Ovedya says..

However, any way you slice it, wine is wine, regardless of the percentage of alcohol. We need to understand this fact of Scripture and move on with our lives, and not be so darned superstitious about things like this.

shiloh357 says..

The same is true Yayin. Again, that is only because Hebrew is smaller. Yayin refers both to unfermented and ferment juice but that really doesn't help your position.

Meeting time

OUr stements do not conflict. Shiloh357 and I agree, just in different ways. If the Hebrew language uses terms interchangeably just as the English language, then "wine is wine" does not conflict with Shiloh's argument.

So to clarify then you agree with the statement that some wine in the bible could have been totally without alcohol and we would only know by the context they are in or in fact not know at all in some context.

Correct?

I've never stated otherwise. Although I believe that the majority of wine was alcoholic, and it was not at all uncommon in Jewish culture to drink alcoholic wine, just as it is not today.

[Servant54]

Servant, if you really wanted to expand your horizons, and if you really were trying to explore the truth, i would talk to people of European nations and see what they said. if you could find someone there who corroborated with your point of view, you could really run with it. can you do that, or will you just say they wouldn't do so because of their lifestyle? i dare you!

I was going to make a point of European nations at one point. France has less than 1% of their people claiming to be born again.

So let see, we leave the USA with our customs and many times the amount of people who are born again and travel to France where almost no one is born again and we use them as an example of how to live.

Got it.

Expanding our horizons its called..got it.

Thanks.

[Servant54]

It seems that way to me although I am certainly not an expert. Although the wine used for example in Seder or used for the Last Supper or for the Lord's Supper in the New Testament Churches has the context of being fermented wine which could cause drunkenness.

If we can not say Timothy was a pastor because the bible does not directly say so then we can not say that alcoholic wine was used at the last supper. Fruit was used..fruit of the vine.

Oh and they had that fruit in condensed form

[Servant54]

Ovedya says..

However, any way you slice it, wine is wine, regardless of the percentage of alcohol. We need to understand this fact of Scripture and move on with our lives, and not be so darned superstitious about things like this.

shiloh357 says..

The same is true Yayin. Again, that is only because Hebrew is smaller. Yayin refers both to unfermented and ferment juice but that really doesn't help your position.

Meeting time

OUr stements do not conflict. Shiloh357 and I agree, just in different ways. If the Hebrew language uses terms interchangeably just as the English language, then "wine is wine" does not conflict with Shiloh's argument.

So to clarify then you agree with the statement that some wine in the bible could have been totally without alcohol and we would only know by the context they are in or in fact not know at all in some context.

Correct?

I've never stated otherwise. Although I believe that the majority of wine was alcoholic, and it was not at all uncommon in Jewish culture to drink alcoholic wine, just as it is not today.

Here is what you stated in the middle of the debate...

"Grape juice starts to ferment in about 6 days; faster in a warm environment. Logically unfermented grape juice would have been a valued commodity in ancient times. Yet there is no historic evidence that it was such. Actually it was wine - fermented grapes - that was a high commodity then.

There weren't a lot of cool caves, and no ice readily available, in ancient Israel, so how would someone keep the juice from fermenting?

Answer: They didn't."

Then you told us to read...

Read: http://prohibitionhangover.com/israelwine.html

The author stated "There is no word for unfermented wine in Scripture. Wine is wine. It was always fermented."

Then you just quoted the author to Ax two pages ago.."Wine in the Bible is fermented. Wine is wine"

So have you changed your opinion during the last of this discussion?

It looks as though you have.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Servant54

[Ovedya]

Ovedya says..

However, any way you slice it, wine is wine, regardless of the percentage of alcohol. We need to understand this fact of Scripture and move on with our lives, and not be so darned superstitious about things like this.

shiloh357 says..

The same is true Yayin. Again, that is only because Hebrew is smaller. Yayin refers both to unfermented and ferment juice but that really doesn't help your position.

Meeting time

OUr stements do not conflict. Shiloh357 and I agree, just in different ways. If the Hebrew language uses terms interchangeably just as the English language, then "wine is wine" does not conflict with Shiloh's argument.

So to clarify then you agree with the statement that some wine in the bible could have been totally without alcohol and we would only know by the context they are in or in fact not know at all in some context.

Correct?

I've never stated otherwise. Although I believe that the majority of wine was alcoholic, and it was not at all uncommon in Jewish culture to drink alcoholic wine, just as it is not today.

Here is what you stated in the middle of the debate...

"Grape juice starts to ferment in about 6 days; faster in a warm environment. Logically unfermented grape juice would have been a valued commodity in ancient times. Yet there is no historic evidence that it was such. Actually it was wine - fermented grapes - that was a high commodity then.

There weren't a lot of cool caves, and no ice readily available, in ancient Israel, so how would someone keep the juice from fermenting?

Answer: They didn't."

Then you told us to read...

Read: http://prohibitionhangover.com/israelwine.html

The author stated "There is no word for unfermented wine in Scripture. Wine is wine. It was always fermented."

Then you just quoted the author to Ax two pages ago.."Wine in the Bible is fermented. Wine is wine"

So have you changed your opinion during the last of this discussion?

It looks as though you have.

No, I haven't.

[Smalcald]

It seems that way to me although I am certainly not an expert. Although the wine used for example in Seder or used for the Last Supper or for the Lord's Supper in the New Testament Churches has the context of being fermented wine which could cause drunkenness.

If we can not say Timothy was a pastor because the bible does not directly say so then we can not say that alcoholic wine was used at the last supper. Fruit was used..fruit of the vine.

Oh and they had that fruit in condensed form

Maybe, I am not denying the possibility. I am just saying that historically and what we know about historical Jewish tradition the wine at the Last Supper was fermented, just as it is among Orthodox Jew's today. Do you think that Jewish Law has changed?

It seems to me that if we speak to an orthodox Jewish Rabbi, an expert in the Law of the Torah, we would have a pretty good idea about what Jewish people did and do for the Seder meal.

I think that if you found a Jewish historical source for some of your ideas it would be far more convincing. The Last Supper is not a new thing, or something that was instituted just when Jesus lived and then discontinued, Jew

[Servant54]

Listen, your right, I do not agree with every commentary I read. The problem is, the only commentary in any of my posts is my own. All I did was show definitions of what the word itself meant, in that context, from 7 or 8 greek dictionaries. And Servant says all of them are wrong. Now one or two being wrong? Sure, I could accept that possibility, but all of them? When one is so biased in their own position that they begin saying biblical study sources that have been relied on and trusted for decades are all wrong, there is a problem, and the problem is not the sources, it's the person dismissing them. And make no mistake, he basically said, in so many words that if Strongs agrees with him, he accepts it and uses it, but if it does not agree with him, it's suddenly wrong. He called all those sources that do not agree with his interpretation poor.

I honestly did not know you were simply chiding me, and I apologize as well.

What are you talking about? I have lost tract.

I do not remember doing as you say. Please restate what you said.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Servant54

[Servant54]

It seems that way to me although I am certainly not an expert. Although the wine used for example in Seder or used for the Last Supper or for the Lord's Supper in the New Testament Churches has the context of being fermented wine which could cause drunkenness.

If we can not say Timothy was a pastor because the bible does not directly say so then we can not say that alcoholic wine was used at the last supper. Fruit was used..fruit of the vine.

Oh and they had that fruit in condensed form

Maybe, I am not denying the possibility. I am just saying that historically and what we know about historical Jewish tradition the wine at the Last Supper was fermented, just as it is among Orthodox Jew's today. Do you think that Jewish Law has changed?

It seems to me that if we speak to an orthodox Jewish Rabbi, an expert in the Law of the Torah, we would have a pretty good idea about what Jewish people did and do for the Seder meal.

I think that if you found a Jewish historical source for some of your ideas it would be far more convincing. The Last Supper is not a new thing, or something that was instituted just when Jesus lived and then discontinued, Jew’s have been practicing the Passover for 4000 years, I don’t suspect it has changed much.

I do not have to be convincing.

I have" fruit of the vine". It could not get any clearer.

You are the one that needs to prove your case. If you are going to state it is ok to drink alcoholic wine, by the bible, you are going to have to prove it with no shadows.

It is much safer to say it was grape juice. It does not mock you know.

You are the one that insists they used alcohol which is a poison to symbolic show the blood of Christ.

I think if you used a Jewish historical source for some of your ideas you would be more convincing.

Actually I do not trust anything modern day Jews would bring to the table...I do not think they are historically connected to the past and they are all backslid and have rejected their messiah so what they do today may be nothing like what Jews did in time of Jesus ....period.

Case in point...Like head covers, wearing black, those curls what is up with that?......and they still practice circumcision, they have blinders on.

Here is what Wik says...

"What the exact forms of Judaism were during the times of Moses or during the eras of the Mishnah and Talmud cannot be exactly known today in all their details, but Orthodox Jews maintain that contemporary Orthodox Judaism maintains the same basic philosophy and legal framework that existed throughout Jewish history, whereas the other denominations depart from it."

Edited May 26, 2009 by Servant54

[Smalcald]

It seems that way to me although I am certainly not an expert. Although the wine used for example in Seder or used for the Last Supper or for the Lord's Supper in the New Testament Churches has the context of being fermented wine which could cause drunkenness.

If we can not say Timothy was a pastor because the bible does not directly say so then we can not say that alcoholic wine was used at the last supper. Fruit was used..fruit of the vine.

Oh and they had that fruit in condensed form

Maybe, I am not denying the possibility. I am just saying that historically and what we know about historical Jewish tradition the wine at the Last Supper was fermented, just as it is among Orthodox Jew's today. Do you think that Jewish Law has changed?

It seems to me that if we speak to an orthodox Jewish Rabbi, an expert in the Law of the Torah, we would have a pretty good idea about what Jewish people did and do for the Seder meal.

I think that if you found a Jewish historical source for some of your ideas it would be far more convincing. The Last Supper is not a new thing, or something that was instituted just when Jesus lived and then discontinued, Jew