Servant54 Posted May 26, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 139 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2009 Listen, your right, I do not agree with every commentary I read. The problem is, the only commentary in any of my posts is my own. All I did was show definitions of what the word itself meant, in that context, from 7 or 8 greek dictionaries. And Servant says all of them are wrong. Now one or two being wrong? Sure, I could accept that possibility, but all of them? When one is so biased in their own position that they begin saying biblical study sources that have been relied on and trusted for decades are all wrong, there is a problem, and the problem is not the sources, it's the person dismissing them. And make no mistake, he basically said, in so many words that if Strongs agrees with him, he accepts it and uses it, but if it does not agree with him, it's suddenly wrong. He called all those sources that do not agree with his interpretation poor. I honestly did not know you were simply chiding me, and I apologize as well. What are you talking about? I have lost tract. I'm talking about the fact that if sources agree with you, you use them and they are just fine, if not, then you say the sources are "poor," "wrong," "mis-translated," or some other such term. Just to refresh your memory: Post #476: Your translation is not a transliteration but a poor paraphrase of what is really said. We need to check the Greek if we are going to form doctrine from a passage. When posting sripture here, I usually use the NIV. Not because it is the best translation, or because it is my favorite, but because it is the simplest for most people to understand. The NIV is not a paraphrase, it is a dynamic equivalency translation. You tell me to check the greek, and when I do, and when it disagrees with what you say, suddenly, not only the NIV is wrong, my source for the greek is wrong too: Post #488: I am getting my definition from Westcott and Hort it is pretty simple Greek two word together "beside" and " wine" not sure where these commentaries are getting such a word picture out of these two words. Again your definition of "drunkenness" does not make sense, why give an example of a rule that an elder is held to and it is no more stringent than a baby Christians rules. Why not just say drunkenness in the Greek text. It does not add up. I guess then sense you have three commentaries that say so it HAS to be true. I an just dishonest because you have perfect proof. Do I have to give a list of where these commentaries have totally blown word meanings to show how dependable they are? You start basing what you believe on what commentaries tell you and you end up with their religion....an out dated sect. They were good for their day but have many flaws. Example.... Strong's translates the Hebrew word Skekar as "Strong Drink" in every passage and has people buy "strong drink" as part of their tithe.."what ever you heart desires God says"...A TOTAL MISTRANSLATION BY KJV and STRONGS. But they were drinkers so it had to be strong drink...not. I am not going to sit here and judge your honesty..I believe you are generally honest..you are just using poor sources for your proofs. I understand that also it is hard to find out the real truth..I do not hold that against anyone. I wasn't using "commentaries" I was using word dictionaries such as Strong's, Thayer's, and other lexicons. I have no clue what you mean by "out-dated sect." You then go on to say that both the KJV AND Strong's are wrong, but apparently, only when they disagree with what you say. You have said earlier that you are not a Bible scholar, but feel that you are enough of a scholar to say that all the interpreters of the KJV where wrong. Ok. Then you call "paroinos" one word in some places, two words in another. Every interlinear I have looked up for both 1 Timothy and Titus give it as one word, and translated the same in both instances as "given to wine" not "beside" and "wine" as you keep asserting. Then once again, you call sources that don't agree with you "poor." But this is the one that concerns me the most: Post #529: Yes, we have a works based faith. Do you actually believe in a works-based faith and salvation? If so, that would explain why you are confused on this issue. We are not saved by works, and works do not produce faith, or earn us anything. When people have a skewed view of something, it's usually traced to 1 of 4 things. A wrong view of who Jesus is, a wrong view of who the Holy Spirit is, a wrong view of the Bible, i.e. not believing in the Bible as divinely inspired and innerant, or a flawed view of salvation. If your view of salvation is that it is works-based, you are going to have a hard time understanding sin, because you will believe that you can conquer sin through works instead of simply accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross. That will create all kinds of problems and false beliefs. No I do not have a works based faith I was mocking your mock when you said we did. You try slamming people's character because they believe different. It is a cheap shot. You did not stick with the original meaning of the word you went to people's OPINION of what the word meant. Even after Ax came in and reiterated my point you still hold to ideology that these OPINIONS are better than the actual meaning. Word dictionaries are commentaries...especially when they use words to describe Greek words that are not in the text. I will take the blame for not making it clear I was mocking your mock, but please go ask a couple guys who are neutral on this point and I am sure they will tell you that you error on this point of accepting a long flowery meaning over just the simple meaning "along side of wine" Thank you for all your work in your posts..you have brought many good points to the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted May 26, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Is there not a passage in Deuteronomy that tells the people that they can have wine or strong drink or whatever else their heart desires in that regard? Deut 14:26...you can take your tithe money and turn it into wine or strong drink or whatever your soul desires and consume it before the LORD...and rejoice! WOW. Hmm. God telling the people they can go party? Well not exactly, but... Then there is the statement someone made about Scripture not speaking against drunkeness. Noah got plastered. Lot got crocked. God considered both of them righteous men in His sight. Scripture calls it making the heart merry. So then just what IS God talking about in Proverbs when we're told that wine is a mocker and strong drink a brawler? I suspect CONTINUAL drunkeness/alcoholism. IF we read the passage, the conduct displayed appears to be that of: 1. Reveling and public drunkeness 2. Someone who does this as a habit. Scientists/doctors have shown that such conduct leads to cirrhosis of the liver and brain damage, and police blotters are certainly filled with instances of public drunkeness/DWI arrests. Those same scientists/doctors also tell us that drinking some wine is good for the heart and that a beer might also be good now and then. When I was first saved, I was in a denomination which condemned the use of alcohol. I couldn't reconcile Jesus drinking wine with what the denomination was teaching though, and then I found Deut 14:26. Paul told Timothy to have some wine for his stomach's sake. Early Christians had no problem with the drinking of wine. So then, I came to the conclusion that as long as I don't let IT master ME, I can have a drink now and then and enjoy it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Is there not a passage in Deuteronomy that tells the people that they can have wine or strong drink or whatever else their heart desires in that regard? Deut 14:26...you can take your tithe money and turn it into wine or strong drink or whatever your soul desires and consume it before the LORD...and rejoice! WOW. Hmm. God telling the people they can go party? Well not exactly, but... yes, there is. and i posted it about 50 pages ago, but when people don't want to hear anything else, they won't listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted May 26, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2009 The plain words of scripture say wine; it says wine that makes you drunk, sorry you are the one in the shadows on this one. You are twisting scripture to come up with this grape juice idea, which is on its face rather ridiculous, which is why most scholars of that period disagree with the whole concept. It was cooked up in the 19th century to support the temperance movement. As your source says, Orthodox Jews today practice the same thing as was handed down to them. Backsliding as a concept would not even apply to them, they are not believers, they are however practicing Jew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant54 Posted May 26, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 139 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2009 The plain words of scripture say wine; it says wine that makes you drunk, sorry you are the one in the shadows on this one. You are twisting scripture to come up with this grape juice idea, which is on its face rather ridiculous, which is why most scholars of that period disagree with the whole concept. I am talking about only the last supper...that was the topic....... International Standard Version ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted May 26, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted May 26, 2009 The plain words of scripture say wine; it says wine that makes you drunk, sorry you are the one in the shadows on this one. You are twisting scripture to come up with this grape juice idea, which is on its face rather ridiculous, which is why most scholars of that period disagree with the whole concept. I am talking about only the last supper...that was the topic....... International Standard Version ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted May 26, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2009 Is there not a passage in Deuteronomy that tells the people that they can have wine or strong drink or whatever else their heart desires in that regard? Deut 14:26...you can take your tithe money and turn it into wine or strong drink or whatever your soul desires and consume it before the LORD...and rejoice! WOW. Hmm. God telling the people they can go party? Well not exactly, but... yeah...you know God "The Party Animal" who makes 150 gallons of awesome wine for a bunch of drunk partiers...or use your tithe money and go get the heavy stuff. yeeeeaaahhhh! Cawabunga dudes!! Have people lost all reverance for the Saviour of the World and His Heavenly Father? The context of this passage deals with the law concerning tithes. An Israelite was to bring his tithe to the sanctuary (14:22-23). If it was too far to carry his tithe, he could turn his tithe into money at home and then bring the money to the sanctuary (14:24-25). When he arrived at the place of offering, he was to spend his money to purchase what he needed to eat before the Lord and also give a portion to the Levites (14:26-29). Deuteronomy 12:1-19 also deals with this law. The Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant54 Posted May 26, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 139 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted May 26, 2009 Uh, no they don't. Gennao means beginning. The phrase is gennema ampelos. (Gen ay ma ampelos) The word gennema means fruit, either of agriculture or of human offspring. Gennema doesn't mean grapes per se. It could mean tomatoes or any fruit/vegetable. They? what are you saying..anyway I agree with your definition thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smalcald Posted May 26, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5,258 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/22/1960 Share Posted May 26, 2009 The plain words of scripture say wine; it says wine that makes you drunk, sorry you are the one in the shadows on this one. You are twisting scripture to come up with this grape juice idea, which is on its face rather ridiculous, which is why most scholars of that period disagree with the whole concept. It was cooked up in the 19th century to support the temperance movement. As your source says, Orthodox Jews today practice the same thing as was handed down to them. Backsliding as a concept would not even apply to them, they are not believers, they are however practicing Jew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted May 26, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted May 26, 2009 Is there not a passage in Deuteronomy that tells the people that they can have wine or strong drink or whatever else their heart desires in that regard? Deut 14:26...you can take your tithe money and turn it into wine or strong drink or whatever your soul desires and consume it before the LORD...and rejoice! WOW. Hmm. God telling the people they can go party? Well not exactly, but... yeah...you know God "The Party Animal" who makes 150 gallons of awesome wine for a bunch of drunk partiers..yeeeeaaahhhh! Cawabunga dudes!! Have people lost all reverance for the Saviour of the World and His Heavenly Father? The context of this passage deals with the law concerning tithes. An Israelite was to bring his tithe to the sanctuary (14:22-23). If it was too far to carry his tithe, he could turn his tithe into money at home and then bring the money to the sanctuary (14:24-25). When he arrived at the place of offering, he was to spend his money to purchase what he needed to eat before the Lord and also give a portion to the Levites (14:26-29). Deuteronomy 12:1-19 also deals with this law. The Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts