Alcohol

[Axxman]

I agree about the works.

I also agree with the problem of the temperance movement. That was my point and has been my point the entire thread, one drop of fermented wine is not a sin. I hope people do not think I am advocating that we MUST drink! Certainly not drinking or abstaining is an acceptable and wholesome path for a Christian to follow, just as drinking in strict moderation is. The same would hold for all food and drink, in particular gluttony, which is often mentioned in the same texts as drunkenness.

For the most part I think you've played the topic pretty fairly on both sides. I don't think you are in "must" catagory either way. Although, I think you are still in the "all wine" is alcoholic mode...yes?

[Servant54]

Is there not a passage in Deuteronomy that tells the people that they can have wine or strong drink or whatever else their heart desires in that regard? Deut 14:26...you can take your tithe money and turn it into wine or strong drink or whatever your soul desires and consume it before the LORD...and rejoice! WOW. Hmm.

God telling the people they can go party? Well not exactly, but...

The word in Dueteronomy is a generic word shakar for strong drink.

Guess what the word for sugar is in neighboring Arabic countries shukkar, sound familiar?

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=56507

I also asked an Arab man at the grocery store last mionth. He confirmed this.

I am going to bring out much more on Shakar and once and for all show it can be used as a non alcoholic drink rendering the notion God put a stamp of approval on drinking in Duet 14:26

I am way past my coffee/ post time today though..later.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Servant54

[Smalcald]

I agree about the works.

I also agree with the problem of the temperance movement. That was my point and has been my point the entire thread, one drop of fermented wine is not a sin. I hope people do not think I am advocating that we MUST drink! Certainly not drinking or abstaining is an acceptable and wholesome path for a Christian to follow, just as drinking in strict moderation is. The same would hold for all food and drink, in particular gluttony, which is often mentioned in the same texts as drunkenness.

For the most part I think you've played the topic pretty fairly on both sides. I don't think you are in "must" catagory either way. Although, I think you are still in the "all wine" is alcoholic mode...yes?

No not really. I think there is pretty good evidence that not all wine was fermented. For me it just seems in the context of the wedding and in the context of I Corinth, the wine being used at those events was probably fermented.

[Guest yod]

if sources agree with you, you use them and they are just fine, if not, then you say the sources are "poor," "wrong," "mis-translated," or some other such term

and to be fair, there probably are cases like that which are legitimate issues but all of them????

brother, that is isolating yourself from the Word coming alive in you through a Cross! The word "faith" means "strong trust". If we have "strong trust" in the Lord we simply accept His ways. I'm a former atheist who began searching for the truth by disproving the Bible. You see how that worked out when I just let the truth be the truth?

We should have nothing to fear from the Truth, even when it goes against some of the things we hold most dear. Personally, I think it would be a good idea to abstain from alcohol unless you are in the presence of someone who offers you a drink. I don't store alcohol at home and my kids have never, ever, ever, ever seen me intoxicated on alcohol. They haven't seen me drink wine more than maybe once or twice in their life and I was certainly quite responsible in front of them.

They will not see alcohol as the forbidden fruit of temptation but what they will see is someone who isn't afraid of being around those "poor sinners" who drink just because someone else may have strong convictions about it's abuse.

If I'm with someone who might feel the least bit uncomfortable around a "holy roller christian", I disarm them by having a beer or a wine with them.

PLEASE NOTICE: I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS as a strategy for reaching your lost friends for everyone. Especially if you are under 25.

That is my request and I believe that is how our gentle Master handled it too. Without fear.

And in my particular case, it is the world I come from . I'm not going to treat my family or friends like I'm too good to hang out with them because of who they are? I was the leader of the pack for too long to start acting all sanctimonious now.

I honestly believe that He would have had fun with them if it were today....and they would REJOICE in His presence! Different cultures rejoice in different ways, brothers, and therefore it is completely inappropriate to criticize the way another man honors the Lord. It's between Him and them.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with that premise since it is spelled out clearly with the New Covenant scriptures.

So what happens is that our greco-american foundation starts projecting & applying greek philosophical tenets to a culture that was not only hebraic, but spoke Hebrew and/or Aramaic equally which was translated by jews into a foreign language (greek) which didn't have exactly descriptive words. For example....which greek god had "agape"? That was a word which jewish people had to adapt and give new content before it could be translated into greek.

There is no word for "anointed" or "messiah" in greek either, yet they had to tell the story to the greek speaking world. Once you understand the hebraic culture and language, the greek makes sense but I promise you...it doesn't work the other way. You will start getting a greek understanding of the scriptures and that will produce a greek spirit. (And now for a commercial interruption. I have a friend coming out with a book called "the Greek Spirit" which, I think, could shake the greco-church to it's knees! Now back to our regularly scheduled program)

The more history of the world I understand, the more biblical texts make sense. You can, of course, be very saved without this knowledge but it will greatly enhance your understanding of His ways throughout HisStory.

[Bold Believer]

if sources agree with you, you use them and they are just fine, if not, then you say the sources are "poor," "wrong," "mis-translated," or some other such term

and to be fair, there probably are cases like that which are legitimate issues but all of them????

brother, that is isolating yourself from the Word coming alive in you through a Cross! The word "faith" means "strong trust". If we have "strong trust" in the Lord we simply accept His ways. I'm a former atheist who began searching for the truth by disproving the Bible. You see how that worked out when I just let the truth be the truth?

We should have nothing to fear from the Truth, even when it goes against some of the things we hold most dear. Personally, I think it would be a good idea to abstain from alcohol unless you are in the presence of someone who offers you a drink. I don't store alcohol at home and my kids have never, ever, ever, ever seen me intoxicated on alcohol. They haven't seen me drink wine more than maybe once or twice in the life and I was quite responsible in front of them.

What they will see is someone who isn't afraid of being around those "poor sinners" who drink just because I have strong convictions about it's abuse.

If I'm with someone who might feel the least bit uncomfortable around a "holy roller christian", I disarm them by having a beer or a wine with them.

PLEASE NOTICE: I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS as a strategy for reaching your lost friends for everyone. Especially if you are under 25.

That is my request and I believe that is how our gentle Master handled it too. Without fear.

And in my particular case, it is the world I come from . I'm not going to treat my family or friends like I'm too good to hang out with them because of who they are? I was the leader of the pack for too long to start acting all sanctimonious now.

I honestly believe that He would have had fun with them if it were today....and they would REJOICE in His presence! Different cultures rejoice in different ways, brothers, and therefore it is completely inappropriate to criticize the way another man honors the Lord. It's between Him and them.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with that premise since it is spelled out clearly with the New Covenant scriptures.

So what happens is that our greco-american foundation starts projecting & applying greek philosophical tenets to a culture that was not only hebraic, but spoke Hebrew and/or Aramaic equally which was translated by jews into a foreign language (greek) which didn't have exactly descriptive words. For example....which greek god had "agape"? That was a word which jewish people had to adapt and give new content before it could be translated into greek.

There is no word for "anointed" or "messiah" in greek either, yet they had to tell the story to the greek speaking world. Once you understand the hebraic culture and language, the greek makes sense but I promise you...it doesn't work the other way. You will start getting a greek understanding of the scriptures and that will produce a greek spirit. (And now for a commercial interruption. I have a friend coming out with a book called "the Greek Spirit" which, I think, could shake the greco-church to it's knees! Now back to our regularly scheduled program)

The more history of the world I understand, the more biblical texts make sense. You can, of course, be very saved without this knowledge but it will greatly enhance your understanding of His ways throughout HisStory.

Yod, you might just be the man to shed some Hebrew light on Deut 14:26. As I understand it, God is telling a tither to buy whatever he desires with his tithe money and enjoy it before the LORD responsibly and also share it with the poor and Levites as well.

[Ovedya]

It seems that way to me although I am certainly not an expert. Although the wine used for example in Seder or used for the Last Supper or for the Lord's Supper in the New Testament Churches has the context of being fermented wine which could cause drunkenness.

If we can not say Timothy was a pastor because the bible does not directly say so then we can not say that alcoholic wine was used at the last supper. Fruit was used..fruit of the vine.

Oh and they had that fruit in condensed form

Maybe, I am not denying the possibility. I am just saying that historically and what we know about historical Jewish tradition the wine at the Last Supper was fermented, just as it is among Orthodox Jew's today. Do you think that Jewish Law has changed?

It seems to me that if we speak to an orthodox Jewish Rabbi, an expert in the Law of the Torah, we would have a pretty good idea about what Jewish people did and do for the Seder meal.

I think that if you found a Jewish historical source for some of your ideas it would be far more convincing. The Last Supper is not a new thing, or something that was instituted just when Jesus lived and then discontinued, Jew

[Servant54]

And I would caution you against speaking ill of Israel. She is the apple of God's eye!

Saved people are God\'s people in my theology. Israel\'s people are not saved, unless they have come to know their messiah. They are Christ haters for the most part,not for Him but against Him, go up to some Jew and ask them what they think of your Jesus.

Now that does not mean we do not love them as people or side with them because they believe in a democratic way, but they have rejected God. They do have some things God is going to do for them and he has kept them...but they are not saved..they are backslid as a people. We are of our father Abraham will not get you into heaven.

Israel is not the apple of God's eye..devoted Christians are. You can not be unsaved and the apple of God's eye totally wrong theology.

::::::::::::::::

Did you get any of the "fruit of the vine" understanding or are you just going to ignore it?

I notice you totally have jumped topic and are now just criticizing me for proving less than others.

Please just stay with the topic.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Servant54

[Guest yod]

Yod, you might just be the man to shed some Hebrew light on Deut 14:26. As I understand it, God is telling a tither to buy whatever he desires with his tithe money and enjoy it before the LORD responsibly and also share it with the poor and Levites as well.

it means just what it says....

It takes a special kind of denial to make it mean something else.

[Guest yod]

Saved people are God's people in my theology. Israel's people are not saved, unless they have come to know their messiah. They are Christ haters for the most part,not t for Him but against Him, go up to some Jew and ask them what they think of your Jesus.

Now that does not mean we do not love them as people or side with them because they believe in a democratic way, but they have rejected God. They do have some things God is going top do for them and he has kept them...but they are not saved..they are backslid as a people. We are of our father Abraham will not get you into heaven.

Israel is not the apple of God's eye..devoted Christians are. You can not be unsaved and the apple of God's eye totally wrong theology.

Yep...you are a victim of some really really bad theology bro.

No one is saying that jews are saved by being jewish but that isn't what it means to be the "Chosen People"

It's obvious that you've accepted denominational "truth" over the biblical Truth for quite some time now.

[Guest shiloh357]

I guess what you are failing to take into account is that Hebrew is a smaller language than English and is in fact, smaller than most other languages. That means that words in Hebrew often play double duty or triple duty, etc. One word in Hebrew might have 10 or usages.

I say...

No, this is not what I am failing to see it is what the moderation side of this debate has failed to see..many uses for one word.. GENERIC WORDS!!

Thank You This is wonderful!

See the problem is that it doesn't really help you. There are contexts in which God allows people to drink alcohol. The Bible does not forbid it at all.

As for modern Hebrew... If King David were alive today, he would be able to walk down the streets of Jerusaelm and be perfectly understood by any modern Jew living today. Even with our modern technology, they simply expand the meaning of current words. For example the ancient Hebrew word for "arrow" is used today to refer to "rocket" or "missile" or "ammunition." The ancient word for "bow" is used for "gun," or "rifle" etc. Modern Hebrew does not differ signifcantly enough from ancient Hebrew to claim that they are not directly connected. Hebrew is Hebrew.

Now to the reference in Deut. 14:26. I realize it is used in other ways, but that is really a pointless issue to bring up. Context determines its usage in Deut. 14:26. Just because you find it used in reference to nonintoxicating drinks as well, does NOT mean you have the right to apply it that way in Deut. 14:26. The text demands it be understood as referring to liquor or strong drink.

I say..

Thank you again for saying it CAN be used in other ways! This is great!

You say context determines the usage..again I do cart wheels thank you... but then you make a very strange statement "THE TEXT DEMANDS IT BE UNDERSTOOD AS REFERRING TO LIQUOR OR STRONG DRINK"

Could you explain why? Your statement does not make sense. Do you know something we do not about Duet 14:26

We are not talking what the bible demands abstinence or moderation at this point...only what this verse is saying, once we determine that we can take the sum of all verse and develop a verdict.

The context demands it. You will not find ANY competent Jewish or Christian expert in Hebrew that will say otherwise. It is simply common knowledge that fermented wine and even stronger, date-based liquor was common and God did not forbid. There is no case that can be made to claim that Deut. 14:26 refers to anything but intoxicants, both in terms of the wine and strong drink.

The problem arises when people try to interpret their personal aversion to alchohol into the Bible to make the Bible reflect their own personal views on alcohol consumption. The Bible does not condemn the consumption of alchohol, but only the irresponsible overindulgence of it.

I Say...

This is a two way street..you have just proved that by your last statement

No I didn't. I don't personally drink at all. I have no use for alcohol in any form. If a married couple has a glass champaigne on their anniversary, or someone has a cold can of beer after mowing the yard all day, I don't offer them any condemnation, but I personally don't want or need it. I have a very strong personal aversion to alcohol, but I am not letting that taint my reading of Scripture.

The same is true Yayin. Again, that is only because Hebrew is smaller. Yayin refers both to unfermented and ferment juice but that really doesn't help your position. Where it DOES refer to fermented juice there is no condemnation of its consumption in the Bible.

I say...

Cartwheels again, Thank You for this information in your first statement.

With your logic then we can have more that one wife..the bible does not condemn it where it mentions it..(I am not going to tell my wife just yet though ) Bible does not condemn Noah's drunkeness or Lots..the list goes on

Actually the Bible shows us God's perfect plan for marriage, and if you notice in Scripture, the Bible shows us the calamaty, sin and destruction that followed polygamy. The Biblical pattern of marriage that the Bible actively prescribes is one man and one woman.

You cannot compare that issue to whether or not a drink of alcohol is sinful or not. You simply don't have a iron-clad, air-tight case against moderate to rare alcohol consumption.

Jesus turned water into wine in Cana and the Greek does not indicate it was anything other than real wine. In fact, the text clearly indicates that they wine that Jesus and the other guests had been drinking prior to the miracle was also real wine. Even Jesus partook of real wine.

I say...

Again your going against your own words..the Greek does not indicate whether it was alcoholic or not.CONTEXT does. You have NO proof Jesus drank alcohol period.

Again, though, context determines word usage. The natural usage of the word would not lead one to think grape juice was being served. Jewish people NEVER serve grape Juice at weddings, always wine. They never use grape juice at Passover, they always use wine. Exceptions are made for people with special medical issues, but generally speaking regular fermented wine is always served.

Since the Bible does not indicate that the wine being served was unfermented, then the default, natural sense usage of the word in conjunction with known historical/cultural context and customs can only lead one to the conclusion that fermented wine was used.

Paul, in Romans 14 admonishes us not to drink wine in the presence of weaker brethren but to does not condemn the consumption of it otherwise, except in excess.

I say...

Again you assume this refers to alcoholic wine, it also mentions eating, I believe it is just WHATEVER you eat or drink, it does not say he "does not condemn consuption of it otherwise" period. all assumption on your part.

That defies common sense. If Paul were simply talking about grape juice, then there would be no concern about drinking to excess in front of weaker bretheren.

Secondly in terms of eating, Paul is talking about extra biblical fast days where people would for a season either fast totally from food or fast only partially. Paul's admonition was not to look down disparagingly on those who did not participate in such fasts and for those who chose not to fast to look not disparagingly on those who did choose to participate.

I thank you for your information, I am actually putting this post in my file and will use your words in future discussions on this subject You have helped us understand greatly Blessings!

You simply missed the point and it is obvious you don't have much skill in handling biblical languages.

Ovedya says..

However, any way you slice it, wine is wine, regardless of the percentage of alcohol. We need to understand this fact of Scripture and move on with our lives, and not be so darned superstitious about things like this.

shiloh357 says..

The same is true Yayin. Again, that is only because Hebrew is smaller. Yayin refers both to unfermented and ferment juice but that really doesn't help your position.

You are trying to create a problem where none exists. Wine is wine is wine. The problem is that you are banking on what a word CAN mean. I am showing that the lexical definition of a word always takes a backseat to context and word usage.

The word "Love" in English is the same way. It has a lexical definition, but it CAN mean different things depending on how it used.

A man "loves" wife differently than he "loves" his dog. A parent "loves" their child differently than they "love" icecream.

Yayin can refer to any fruit of the vine, but when it is translated as "wine" it is for good reason. The natural context determines how a word is used and is translated. When the Bible refers to wine, it means "wine" not grape juice. You can kick against the goads all you want, but Ovedya is right and every competent scholar in Hebrew will agree with him.