Guest LadyC Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 then perhaps you should stop making comments that gets people sidetracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Shiloh said.. "Yayin can refer to any fruit of the vine, but when it is translated as "wine" it is for good reason. The natural context determines how a word is used and is translated. When the Bible refers to wine, it means "wine" not grape juice. You can kick against the goads all you want, but Ovedya is right and every competent scholar in Hebrew will agree with him." I say... Perhaps you can explain the following scriptures in light of what you just said.. Here are some scripture which talk about wine not being alcoholic... Isaiah 65;8 speaks of wine in clusters (tiyrosh) Isaiah 16;10 speaks of treading wine in presses (yayin) Pro 3;10 presses burst with new wine (tiyrosh) Jeremiah 48:33 here wine(yayin) fails from the winepresses Lamentations 2 :11-12 children and infants faint because of lack of wine (yayin) and grain Zech9:14 grain shall make the young men thrive, new wine makes the young women thrive (tiyrosh) So we see that although there are bible passages that obviously refer to wine as having an alcoholic nature, there are also scriptures showing that wine and new wine can also be non alcoholic. Which continues to demonstrate your lack of competence where biblical languages are concerned. "New wine" was not nonalchololic. None of those passages indicate that wine was not the intended understanding. Winepresses and vineyards were used for ONE purpose in an agriculturally based society. The juice of the grapes were intended for wine. It was a major agricultural crop. The juice was considered "wine" since that was the intent of the grower and the producer. They did not have Welches or Juicy Juice in those days. When the Bible juxtaposes a lack of joy with a lack of abundance of the fruit of the vine, it is a clear reference to wine. It is wine, not simply "grape juice" that the Bible associates allegorically to fullness of joy. You just don't get that from plain, unfermented grape juice. Jesus drank fermented wine and the Bible could not be more clear on that point. He even made it for others to drink on one occasion. I cannot imagine one biblical doctrine that is threatened by that simple dose of reality. Lamentations 2 :11-12 children and infants faint because of lack of wine (yayin) and grain That is not what it says. It says that the children ask their mothers where the wine and grain is. It does not say the lack of wine made them faint. Secondly there is nothing in that verse to indicate a nonalcoholic beverage is being referenced. It is used in the natural sense. The rest of your post I am going to let stand as you have stated it. It looks to me that you say things are the way they are because you believe they are that way. Nothing wrong with that, I see no proof given in other words. In other words, you can't refute what was presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Jn 15:18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. (everyone not saved(the world) is a Christ hater in this respect) Actually, that's not true. Explain. Look at the very first word in that verse. "IF" the world hates...... Not knowing Christ does not translate into hating Him. Yes, I see what you are saying, it does go on beyond that and says the world loves its own and hates you because you are not of the world. My main point is you are either for Christ or against him....people against Christ are not the apple of God's eye. Abraham was for Christ by faith. Therefor he was the apple of God's eye. Again I have to tread on water here lest I say something a little off and then get immediately branded as a heretic so everyone can breath easy because Servant 54 is loonie and we no longer have to listen to him. I do not buy it. I am trying to be as kind as possible and just bring the facts of the topic. I wish everyone would quite with the side comments and just stick to the topic. I wish you would drop with the anti-Semitic, bigoted theology. You are the one brought the issue up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted May 27, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted May 27, 2009 "Christ Haters" Hey, I am just quoting the bible... Jn 15:18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. (everyone not saved(the world) is a Christ hater in this respect) Wow. What a cop-out. You specifically identified unregenerated Jews and you are now using a verse which refers to Gentiles ("the world" the perishing) to support your view. Let me guess, you also believe that God's promise to Israel is null and void because of His promise to believers only? Anyway, I am not going to side track on the Israel stuff, I can see you hold dear to your belief and I can respect that..just realize some like myself oppose your view and respect that. I'm sorry, but I can no more respect the views of a person who labels Israel "Christ haters" than I can an atheist who ridicules me for my faith in Christ. Hey before you leave me are you going to comment on what we were actually talking about the text,,I mean it would look like you picked a fight to avoid it if you don't. You and I weren't involved in a textual argument; that's between yourself and Shiloh. However, Shiloh is right, and I know that he is much more the scholar when it comes to ancient tradition and that of the Scriptures. You would do well to listen to him as a student. I have learned greatly from him. As far as appearances are concerned, anybody on this forum whose been here long enough can tell you that I'm not concerned with "how it looks." I didn't pick a fight with you in the first place. You made an ignorant comment with regard to Israel and I called you on it (Anyone whose known me long enough also knows that I call it like I see it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant54 Posted May 27, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 139 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted May 27, 2009 then perhaps you should stop making comments that gets people sidetracked. Yes, it is all me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 then perhaps you should stop making comments that gets people sidetracked. Yes, it is all me quote one other person who made a comment that got the thread sidetracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted May 27, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 27, 2009 Yod, you might just be the man to shed some Hebrew light on Deut 14:26. As I understand it, God is telling a tither to buy whatever he desires with his tithe money and enjoy it before the LORD responsibly and also share it with the poor and Levites as well. LOL..wow...talk about ignoring a response because you didn't like the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted May 27, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 27, 2009 I'm out...some people can't discuss jewish stuff without becoming venomous in their defense...and I CHOOSE to not be a part of the discussion as it turns that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant54 Posted May 27, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 139 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted May 27, 2009 (edited) I wish you would drop with the anti-Semitic, bigoted theology. You are the one brought the issue up. I think everyone is trying to side track the issue. I brought up the Jews AFTER every one was speaking about them as to the fact we should copy them because they drink alcoholic wine at Passover. I said they are not someone we should copy. I was qualifying that statement when I said what I said. Lets just leave it at that. I will retract the statement that they are "Christ haters", I meant it in a certain fashion anyway and should not have brought it up had I known it would cause such a stir. I am sorry if I offended anyone. That was not my intent. Edited May 27, 2009 by Servant54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servant54 Posted May 27, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 139 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted May 27, 2009 Shiloh said.. "Yayin can refer to any fruit of the vine, but when it is translated as "wine" it is for good reason. The natural context determines how a word is used and is translated. When the Bible refers to wine, it means "wine" not grape juice. You can kick against the goads all you want, but Ovedya is right and every competent scholar in Hebrew will agree with him." Hold that thought and read on I say... Perhaps you can explain the following scriptures in light of what you just said.. Here are some scripture which talk about wine not being alcoholic... Isaiah 65;8 speaks of wine in clusters (tiyrosh) Isaiah 16;10 speaks of treading wine in presses (yayin) Pro 3;10 presses burst with new wine (tiyrosh) Jeremiah 48:33 here wine(yayin) fails from the winepresses Lamentations 2 :11-12 children and infants faint because of lack of wine (yayin) and grain Zech9:14 grain shall make the young men thrive, new wine makes the young women thrive (tiyrosh) So we see that although there are bible passages that obviously refer to wine as having an alcoholic nature, there are also scriptures showing that wine and new wine can also be non alcoholic. Which continues to demonstrate your lack of competence where biblical languages are concerned. "New wine" was not nonalchololic. None of those passages indicate that wine was not the intended understanding. Winepresses and vineyards were used for ONE purpose in an agriculturally based society. The juice of the grapes were intended for wine. It was a major agricultural crop. The juice was considered "wine" since that was the intent of the grower and the producer. Ok great..now back up this statement with historical proof..this is not "language" aligation you make, but a historical one what do you do with New wine in clusters? Alcoholic? Prov 3:10 presses bursting with new wine Alcoholic? They did not have Welches or Juicy Juice in those days. Yes, they did and this has already been proven by historical statements on this thread, they had preserved thick juice..non alcoholic and they called it oinios which is transliterated yayin in Hebrew. We provide much on this and there is much more proof. Again not a language issue. When the Bible juxtaposes a lack of joy with a lack of abundance of the fruit of the vine, it is a clear reference to wine. It is wine, not simply "grape juice" that the Bible associates allegorically to fullness of joy. You just don't get that from plain, unfermented grape juice. In Judges 9:27 it says "they gathered grapes from the vineyards and trod them and MADE MERRY." ......"they ate and drank and cursed Abimelech"Fourteen verses back it says "But the vine says to them "Should I cease my NEW WINE Which CHEERS both God and men? Now God drinks alcohol? I say it would be pretty easy to see they drank the grape juice they trod and made merry with it and that the new wine spoken of here is just grape juice. Here is my proof where is yours..again not a language issue Jesus drank fermented wine and the Bible could not be more clear on that point. He even made it for others to drink on one occasion. I cannot imagine one biblical doctrine that is threatened by that simple dose of reality. Again, you make assertions with NO proof have you read Hab 2:15 Who who gives drink to his neighbor, Jesus did not break this commandment . This is not a language issue. Studying the wine skins in the gospel which wine was Jesus associated with the new or the old? What did the old typify?Why did they prefer old? Would he not make new wine typifying his teaching as an opener to his teaching ministry? Lamentations 2 :11-12 children and infants faint because of lack of wine (yayin) and grain That is not what it says. It says that the children ask their mothers where the wine and grain is. It does not say the lack of wine made them faint. Secondly there is nothing in that verse to indicate a nonalcoholic beverage is being referenced. It is used in the natural sense. Again you absolutely are totally wrong in both statements, read on... verse19 who faint from hunger..4:4 The young ask for bread, no one breaks it..4:9better off then those who die of hunger, for these pine away, stricken for lack of the FRUIT OF THE FIELD The rest of your post I am going to let stand as you have stated it. It looks to me that you say things are the way they are because you believe they are that way. Nothing wrong with that, I see no proof given in other words. In other words, you can't refute what was presented. Done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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