Pope says Bethlehem wall "can be taken down"

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't trust any of the major news outlets when it comes to world politics. I don't trust the Religious Right when it comes to reporting world politics, especially when war, religion and $$$ are involved. Too many people getting too rich telling me what me what isn't exactly the truth. So nuts to that.

Yet you regurgitate the very storyline the liberal media outlets try to foist on the rest of us. So, don't tell me you don't trust them. You are obviously influenced by them.

I have not cited any news agencies. I am citing history and basic historical fact. The fact remains that Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians. In 1948 when Israel was reborn the palestinians numbered 650,000 approximately. They now number over 5 Million.

If Israel were trying to destroy them, how do you explain how their numbers ballooned that high in 60 years? The very fact that Israel has a sizable Arab population living as citizens defies your position as well. You simply don't know the facts.

[Gauntlet]

I think that this Pope is seriously out of touch ...

Think that maybe he might be just a little sympathetic to the Aryan race?

I don't want to cast aspersions, but the man was a Hitler youth. It's well known, and proven, that the Hitler youth were brainwashed.

If you want to demonize the Catholic Church, you can do it without that "Nazi Pope" thing. Easily. Nazism is antithetical to Christianity and vice-versa.

Congratulations, you've invoked Godwin's Law!

[Gauntlet]

I don't trust any of the major news outlets when it comes to world politics. I don't trust the Religious Right when it comes to reporting world politics, especially when war, religion and $$$ are involved. Too many people getting too rich telling me what me what isn't exactly the truth. So nuts to that.

Yet you regurgitate the very storyline the liberal media outlets try to foist on the rest of us. So, don't tell me you don't trust them. You are obviously influenced by them.

I have not cited any news agencies. I am citing history and basic historical fact. The fact remains that Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians. In 1948 when Israel was reborn the palestinians numbered 650,000 approximately. They now number over 5 Million.

If Israel were trying to destroy them, how do you explain how their numbers ballooned that high in 60 years? The very fact that Israel has a sizable Arab population living as citizens defies your position as well. You simply don't know the facts.

I wouldn't trust you to give me the facts. You've got a vested interest in the presentation of them.

[Gauntlet]

I don't trust any of the major news outlets when it comes to world politics. I don't trust the Religious Right when it comes to reporting world politics, especially when war, religion and $$$ are involved. Too many people getting too rich telling me what me what isn't exactly the truth. So nuts to that.

Yet you regurgitate the very storyline the liberal media outlets try to foist on the rest of us. So, don't tell me you don't trust them. You are obviously influenced by them.

I have not cited any news agencies. I am citing history and basic historical fact. The fact remains that Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians. In 1948 when Israel was reborn the palestinians numbered 650,000 approximately. They now number over 5 Million.

If Israel were trying to destroy them, how do you explain how their numbers ballooned that high in 60 years? The very fact that Israel has a sizable Arab population living as citizens defies your position as well. You simply don't know the facts.

I wouldn't trust you to give me the facts. You've got a vested interest in the presentation of them.

And who saisd anything about liberal media outlets? I'm not loyal to the left or the right.

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't trust any of the major news outlets when it comes to world politics. I don't trust the Religious Right when it comes to reporting world politics, especially when war, religion and $$$ are involved. Too many people getting too rich telling me what me what isn't exactly the truth. So nuts to that.

Yet you regurgitate the very storyline the liberal media outlets try to foist on the rest of us. So, don't tell me you don't trust them. You are obviously influenced by them.

I have not cited any news agencies. I am citing history and basic historical fact. The fact remains that Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians. In 1948 when Israel was reborn the palestinians numbered 650,000 approximately. They now number over 5 Million.

If Israel were trying to destroy them, how do you explain how their numbers ballooned that high in 60 years? The very fact that Israel has a sizable Arab population living as citizens defies your position as well. You simply don't know the facts.

I wouldn't trust you to give me the facts. You've got a vested interest in the presentation of them.

Really, then refute the facts. I have no vested interest in the presentation of them at all. The issue is I have presented facts you are not competent to refute. I am simply citing history as it is. The onus is on you to show that the information I have provided is flawed. If you can't, then you have no reason to disbelieve the facts I have presented.

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't trust any of the major news outlets when it comes to world politics. I don't trust the Religious Right when it comes to reporting world politics, especially when war, religion and $$$ are involved. Too many people getting too rich telling me what me what isn't exactly the truth. So nuts to that.

Yet you regurgitate the very storyline the liberal media outlets try to foist on the rest of us. So, don't tell me you don't trust them. You are obviously influenced by them.

I have not cited any news agencies. I am citing history and basic historical fact. The fact remains that Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians. In 1948 when Israel was reborn the palestinians numbered 650,000 approximately. They now number over 5 Million.

If Israel were trying to destroy them, how do you explain how their numbers ballooned that high in 60 years? The very fact that Israel has a sizable Arab population living as citizens defies your position as well. You simply don't know the facts.

I wouldn't trust you to give me the facts. You've got a vested interest in the presentation of them.

And who saisd anything about liberal media outlets? I'm not loyal to the left or the right.

Doesn't matter. You are still parroting the liberal, mythical view of this conflict. Nothing you have said so far is based in fact, but in misinformation and rank ignorance.

[Ovedya]

I don't get all the hating on the Pope here?

I think what he said is 100% true. I don't think he's being realistic about it actually happening anytime soon...but real peace wouldn't depend on a wall keeping people apart no matter who we are or where we live.

If the Arabs would repent of their hatred of jews and their desire to destroy Israel, then Israel could take down the walls

Which is exactly why it's not going to happen. The Arabs, the Muslims, are not going to repent, and the wall is not going to come down. I think that deep down the Pope knows this, the Roman Church knows this. That's why I wrote earlier that there's something else going on. I'm not one for conspiracy theories at all, but I know that there's no love for Israel as far as Rome is concerned. If there were, why did the Pope sign a declaration not to proselytize? He did it as an appeasement. He, for one, should know that Israel needs Yeshuah!

[Guest yod]

Lets try to discuss this as brothers. We don't have to agree but we also don't have to be ugly.

Gauntlet have you ever been to Israel to take a look for yourself? I've made 3 trips to Israel between 2001 and 2006 and have seen the situation. Shiloh is telling you real truth and it seems like you would know it if you just thought logically about it for a moment.

Have you ever seen a rally of jews screaming "Death to Arabs"? Did you know there are children's programs on Palestinian TV that teach kids as young as 6 to kill jews? Can you intellectually and honestly say that isn't rather morbid and unique to that culture?

Israel's army is ranked #6 in the world and their Air Force is #4. If they really wanted to kill arabs indiscriminantly as Al Jazeera, BBC, or some of the other non-credible sources say, it would be over in a matter of a day or two.

Why don't they? Really...what's stopping them?

World pressure???? How much did that stop Rwanda? Russia and Georgia? Iranian nuclear desires?

So it is true that you simply cannot make an argument based on Israel and the PLO/Hamas being morally equivalent and yet that is what you seem to be doing.

Is there something about Israel that causes you to be illogical in this way?

[Fez]

Taking history and politics out of the debate, and breaking the popes original statement down, in that the wall could come down if the walls around Israel's and Palestine's hearts were broken down, has he not stated the truth? I think he was probably talking about biblical forgiveness, the forgiveness Jesus taught.

If this is what he meant, and he had no other motives except that meaning, then I tend to agree that he was right in saying what he did.

Mat 6:14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,

Mat 6:15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Of course the above verse obviously does not apply if you are looking at it from a non christian perspective, and thus becomes a bit naive given the complexity of the situation.

[Guest shiloh357]

Taking history and politics out of the debate, and breaking the popes original statement down, in that the wall could come down if the walls around Israel's and Palestine's hearts were broken down, has he not stated the truth? I think he was probably talking about biblical forgiveness, the forgiveness Jesus taught.

The problem is that you can't take history or politics out of the debate. The point is that the Pope (and I am sure he is a good person) simply doesn't understand what Israel is up against. Israel has reached out in kindness and peace to the Palestinians numerous times, more than any other nation would have done and as genuinely sought peace only to have every gestture of peace repaid with bloodshed.

The security fence Israel has erected in the West Bank and the security measures taken around Bethlehem are not the product of any kind of unforgiveness on Israel's part. Israel is not trying to punish the Palestinians for being Palestinians. It is not some racially motivated, spiteful move, but a defensive necessity in the face of brutal, day and night terrorism Israel has been forced to endure over the years.

Israel's defensive measures cannot be cast as something malicious or a tit-for-tat measure. It is a response to the simple fact that the leadership of the Palestinians, instead of genuinely seeking peace with Israel, has rather chosen to perpetuate a state of beligerrance with the nation and people of Israel.

The problem is that people want to over simplify the issue. It is not a matter of just "forgiving." Israel has been exemplary in continuing to show kindness to the Palestinians inspite of having that kindness being repaid with bloodshed. No other country would have been as longsuffering in this regard as Israel.

What the Pope needed to say was that the Palestinians need to relinquish terrorism, accept Israel's right to exist and cease and desist all calls and/or activities pertaining to Israel's destruction and choose to live in peace side by side with Israel.