abbershay Posted July 15, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 49 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 562 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2009 Here is a pretty good part of an answer for you i believe. Both the jews and the church are israel but they are contarary just as the physical and spirit. and the part about the fruits are because we have not yet recieved the fullness of Christ in us. Gal 4:18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you. Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you. Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 You've been listening to 2 House teachers, obviously. Good questions....got any more? Yep - 'splain about the 2 House. Please, of course. that would take quite a long time because they don't have a standard theology from one place to the next but I'll attempt to sum up what they teach in a general way. The biggest problem I have with them is the way that they change the definition of "Israel" and "Jew" and it causes people to read the bible and get a totally different meaning from what it is actually saying. The Lord is causing gentiles worldwide to hear His burden for Israel, the Jews. Some people are confusing this love and burden for Israel/Jews as if they must be jewish to have such an interest in the things of ancient Israel. Yet that overlooks the fact that there are many references in the bible of gentile kingdoms and ethnic groups being a blessing to Israel and being joined to the jews at the end of days. Ephesians 2 and 3 say that we who were once far off have been brought near. We are joined to the commonwealth of Israel but we can NOT be joined to ourselves so there is obviously some distinction. We are the "every tribe, tongue, and nation" spoken of throughout world history in the Bible. Israel is the sons of Jacob. We are "echad" (one) with the faithful remnant of Israel yet distinct in purpose and function from them. Much like a man and a woman become "eched" (one) in marriage and yet have distinctions of purpose and function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Here is a pretty good part of an answer for you i believe. Both the jews and the church are israel but they are contarary just as the physical and spirit. no, the church is not Israel. The word "church" is a post-biblical concept which is at odds with the biblical definition The term "church" today refers to a specifically christian religious organization which is separate from Israel. That definition contradicts what Paul taught about the "Kehilah" (assembly of the saints) I don't even use the word "church" except when referring to a post-biblical and specifically christian religious organization that specifically and intentionally separated itself from Israel. In other words, the term fits well for those who have rejected the biblical definition of Israel but that doesn't include everyone who calls themselves "Christian" we can say with absolute certainty that everyone in the assembly of the saints is joined to Israel but again...we can't be joined to ourselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller Posted July 15, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 827 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 12,101 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2009 You've been listening to 2 House teachers, obviously. Good questions....got any more? Yep - 'splain about the 2 House. Please, of course. that would take quite a long time because they don't have a standard theology from one place to the next but I'll attempt to sum up what they teach in a general way. The biggest problem I have with them is the way that they change the definition of "Israel" and "Jew" and it causes people to read the bible and get a totally different meaning from what it is actually saying. The Lord is causing gentiles worldwide to hear His burden for Israel, the Jews. Some people are confusing this love and burden for Israel/Jews as if they must be jewish to have such an interest in the things of ancient Israel. Yet that overlooks the fact that there are many references in the bible of gentile kingdoms and ethnic groups being a blessing to Israel and being joined to the jews at the end of days. Ephesians 2 and 3 say that we who were once far off have been brought near. We are joined to the commonwealth of Israel but we can NOT be joined to ourselves so there is obviously some distinction. We are the "every tribe, tongue, and nation" spoken of throughout world history in the Bible. Israel is the sons of Jacob. We are "echad" (one) with the faithful remnant of Israel yet distinct in purpose and function from them. Much like a man and a woman become "eched" (one) in marriage and yet have distinctions of purpose and function. thanks, yodman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbershay Posted July 15, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 49 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 562 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 15, 2009 Here is a pretty good part of an answer for you i believe. Both the jews and the church are israel but they are contarary just as the physical and spirit. no, the church is not Israel. The word "church" is a post-biblical concept which is at odds with the biblical definition The term "church" today refers to a specifically christian religious organization which is separate from Israel. That definition contradicts what Paul taught about the "Kehilah" (assembly of the saints) I don't even use the word "church" except when referring to a post-biblical and specifically christian religious organization that specifically and intentionally separated itself from Israel. In other words, the term fits well for those who have rejected the biblical definition of Israel but that doesn't include everyone who calls themselves "Christian" we can say with absolute certainty that everyone in the assembly of the saints is joined to Israel but again...we can't be joined to ourselves You are very wrong as the chruch is also know as the body of Christ and the bride. It could be called the assmebly of saints but it still the church. Thats the term and the church is the child of the promice making it a part of israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doowopjock Posted July 15, 2009 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 122 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/31/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/03/1949 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 There are indeed many interpretations of certain passages of Scripture that all seem to be sound even if they also are seemingly contradictory one to the other. I believe the only reason they seem that way is because we as human-beings have a limited understanding--even those of us with a great amount of it. I see a lot of "parallels" myself with ancient Israel and the church today, but I know and understand very little in comparison to how much I don't. I thank God that Jesus said if I just "BELIEVE" on Him that He would cover the rest. If He had asked me to have it all figured out by the time He got here to set up the kingdom, there would be no hope for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 15, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.93 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 15, 2009 You are very wrong as the chruch is also know as the body of Christ and the bride. It could be called the assmebly of saints but it still the church. Thats the term and the church is the child of the promice making it a part of israel. The term "church" is a term derived from German that has nothing to do with "the assembly" - which is the actual translation of the term Jesus and the Apostles used for the body of believers. Look up the etymology of the word "church" and see what it is derived from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Who is Israel? Israel is Israel. The word "Israel is used 71 times in the New Testament, and EVERY reference is to the physical nation of Israel. "Israel" is never spiritualized in the Bible. It always refers to a specific nation. God established the nation of Israel and due to disobedience the nation split, and has never really been fully restored. The Jewish People Will Always be God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 You are very wrong as the chruch is also know as the body of Christ and the bride. It could be called the assmebly of saints but it still the church. Thats the term and the church is the child of the promice making it a part of israel. I realize that European theologians have been teaching that since the 4th century but I challenge you to find that in the scriptures. This theological device was how the predominantly gentile church of the early centuries separated themselves from the authority of jews to tell them when the Passover (and therefore the Resurrection) was, among other things. I googled and found a brief synopsis of how this separation started and was complete by the 4th century http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...04_0_04302.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 There are indeed many interpretations of certain passages of Scripture that all seem to be sound even if they also are seemingly contradictory one to the other. I believe the only reason they seem that way is because we as human-beings have a limited understanding-- there are no contradictions in the scriptures. Almost every place where you might see a contradiction has been caused by theology and doctrines invented post-biblically (after the bible was written) because the church (a specifically christian religious organization separated from Israel) desired to usurp the promises of Israel while rejecting the curses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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