WHO is "Israel"..??

[Doowopjock]

NOTE: This is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER meant in any anti-Semitic way; I have nothing but respect and compassion for the Jewish people. These are just things I wonder about is all:

WHO is Israel..?? Has the world correctly identified it as the nation at the Eastern end of the Mediterrainean or could it be that Jesus's words in Matt. 21:43 are literal..?? IF so, who brings forth the fruits of the kingdom taken away..?? If not, why are those fruits missing in what the world identifies as Israel..?? Is the Jerusalem above the mother of us all that we should pray for the peace of..?? Or is it the same as the one identified in a negative way at Rev. 11:8..?? Could the fact that "blindness in part has happened to Israel" mean that Israel doesn't even know who they are..?? Let me emphasize--I am NOT a British Israelite. I'm not even entirely sure what that means. But I do wonder about these things and have for some time.

The church is also said to be a "Spiritual race" (as opposed to a fleshly one). Does that mean that Gentiles and Jews are mixed together when born of the same Spirit..?? I "think" so, anyway. I've heard it said before that all Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. That also makes sense to me since there are supposed to be eleven other tribes besides Judah. Paul said he is not a Jew who is circumcised in the flesh (I take this to mean one who is born as a Jew in his fleshly race), but one who is circumcised in the heart. All things that I wonder about--and it's just like Isaiah said, "...line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept, here a little, there a little...".

Can anybody here shed a little light on this to where I ain't so much "in the dark" on it..??

[traveller]

Can anybody here shed a little light on this to where I ain't so much "in the dark" on it..??

I'll be reading this thread.

BTW Brother - you're asking in the right place. We have a lot of diverse knowledge gathered in this place.

[Guest yod]

These are very important questions for understanding the Word of God and His plan for world redemption.

These are just things I wonder about is all:

WHO is Israel..??

Like so many words in the english language, the word "Israel" has multiple definitions. Sometimes it is easier to define what it is "not"

It is not the church. it is not gentiles. It is not christians.

We are, however, fully joined to Israel and become equally a part of Israel through being the commonwealth of Israel. The point being that we can not be "joined" to ourself though we are included.

Has the world correctly identified it as the nation at the Eastern end of the Mediterrainean or could it be that Jesus's words in Matt. 21:43 are literal..??

Lets take a look at that verse in context:

43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus' parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

Did you see that? Yeshua is speaking specifically to the religious authorities who were acting in opposition to the jewish people. He would be taking away their authority over the people.

It didn't catch God by surprise that Yeshua would be rejected by His own because this was how the gospel would go to the nations. The verses preceding this one says:

42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:

" 'The stone the builders rejected

has become the capstone;

the Lord has done this,

and it is marvelous in our eyes'?

IF so, who brings forth the fruits of the kingdom taken away..??

Those who live by faith instead of following the oral law of the Pharisees.

[Guest yod]

If not, why are those fruits missing in what the world identifies as Israel..??

why do you assume that? Isn't the world full of believers in the Messiah of Israel? How do you think that happened?

yet the Word also speaks of a time yet future when we will see "life from the dead" when all of Israel will be saved. (Romans 11)

Is the Jerusalem above the mother of us all that we should pray for the peace of..??

Jerusalem "above" is already peaceful.

Or is it the same as the one identified in a negative way at Rev. 11:8..??

it would have to be that one, eh? even the name of the city "Yerushalayim" is plural. It speaks of one city with more than one manifestation.

Jerusalem is the City of the Great King. It is a holy city in that it is separate from all other cities in its unique character as the Throne of the Messiah of Israel. But there will be a battle for control of the City until the Messiah in anointed and sets up His Throne there

Could the fact that "blindness in part has happened to Israel" mean that Israel doesn't even know who they are..??

That, and many other verses, make it clear that Israel does not know their Messiah and is therefore "kicking against the goads" just as Paul did before receiving revelation.

Let me emphasize--I am NOT a British Israelite. I'm not even entirely sure what that means. But I do wonder about these things and have for some time.

British Israelite is someone who thinks the Celts are the "lost" tribes of Israel. They were nomadic tribes who came from the Black Sea area and first settled in Germany before moving westward and becoming the dominant tribes of England.

The church is also said to be a "Spiritual race" (as opposed to a fleshly one). Does that mean that Gentiles and Jews are mixed together when born of the same Spirit..?? I "think" so, anyway.

When we are born again of the same Holy Spirit, then yes.

I've heard it said before that all Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. That also makes sense to me since there are supposed to be eleven other tribes besides Judah.

You've been listening to 2 House teachers, obviously.

The word "jew" has multiple definitions just like the word "Israel" so, again, it might be easier to define what it is NOT

It is not the church. it is not gentiles. It is not christians.

Paul said he is not a Jew who is circumcised in the flesh (I take this to mean one who is born as a Jew in his fleshly race), but one who is circumcised in the heart.

He wasn't saying that he isn't circumcised in the flesh...he was only saying that being circumcised in the flesh adds no value to salvation. You should understand that, for thousands of years up until that time, the only way to be a disciple of the God of Israel was to be joined to the people of Israel through circumcision and living according to Torah under the laws of the nation of Israel.

The Apostles, in agreement with the Holy Spirit, wisely ruled in Acts 15 that a gentile living in Europe could not be expected to live under the laws of Israel and therefore ruled that it was not mandatory for gentiles to convert to being jews. It was further clarified that since God has poured out His Spirit upon many gentiles who were not circumcised and were not living according to Torah beforehand, that He has ruled them "kosher" (ritually clean) and they were not to over-rule Him

The confusion comes when we begin to say that this mean Torah is unimportant now...but I don't think that was what they were saying at all since the Apostles and disciples continued in observing the Torah.

BTW "torah" literally means "instruction". The Torah is also called "The Law" because it contains the civil codes and ordinances as Israel's founding document but it is much more about instructing us in the ways of the Lord than it is about laying down rules and regulations.

It seems clear and obvious to me that all the Apostles were saying in Acts 15 is that each man in each different nation would be discipled to the torah at his own pace rather than having obligatory rules & regulations being mandated from a council of men in Jerusalem (or elsewhere) as the Pharisees had perfected.

Good questions....got any more?

[mizzdy]

Israel in biblical terms doesn't mean the present country of Israel, there was no country of Israel. There was the northern and southern kingdoms, Judah where we get the term Jew from and Israel the other '10' tribes. G-d said at the end of the age He will start bringing them back together as a nation which I believe is the present nation. I find way too many who think the term Israel means the modern state. As Yod said Israel does have different meanings.

[Doowopjock]

VERY interesting and informative--thank you for this insight, y'all..!! This gives me a lot to think about (and that happens here a whole lot). I'm gonna c/p y'all's posts into an e-mail to myself to refer back to as I continue looking into all the stuff I'm trying to learn about. And yod, yeah I betcha' I DO have a bunch more questions--about these things and a lotta other things as well. I'm just glad even though I know so little concerning all the things about being a Jew and the richness of that culture to relate to that Jesus knows everything He needs to know about being a Texas redneck and He still loves me enough to accept me as I am.

I really appreciate y'all helping me to better understand these things.

[Doowopjock]

If not, why are those fruits missing in what the world identifies as Israel..??

why do you assume that? Isn't the world full of believers in the Messiah of Israel? How do you think that happened?

yet the Word also speaks of a time yet future when we will see "life from the dead" when all of Israel will be saved. (Romans 11)

I thought this would mean that the "fruits" here spoken of would be those from a nation who believed in Jesus, as opposed to one that didn't. Unless I've been hearing wrong all this time, the nation Israel today is not predominantly "Christian". It's one of the main reasons for my disclaimer in the OP of being a "British Israelite". But until I read just now what y'all posted above this post, I have always thought the reference was to a "Spiritual" race without regard at all to any flesh-and-blood race. It might be fair to say it was a conclusion I arrived at on my own--it has been the only thing that seems to make sense to me about it in all these years.

[Doowopjock]

Israel in biblical terms doesn't mean the present country of Israel, there was no country of Israel. There was the northern and southern kingdoms, Judah where we get the term Jew from and Israel the other '10' tribes. G-d said at the end of the age He will start bringing them back together as a nation which I believe is the present nation. I find way too many who think the term Israel means the modern state. As Yod said Israel does have different meanings.

I wish I understood every meaning of it (I have suspected this for a long time). But this might be one of those things that fall under Deut. 29:29 for me--it could be that it's not for me to know. That doesn't mean, however, that I don't find it intriguing. Perhaps I always will--which isn't a complaint, not at all. Maybe I wouldn't recognize life for being what it is if there weren't things to wonder about or daydream about. If that's the way it has to be, I'm OK with that. Not like it's something I'm not used to. (LOL..!!)

[traveller]

You've been listening to 2 House teachers, obviously.

Good questions....got any more?

Yep - 'splain about the 2 House.

Please, of course.

[Guest yod]

Israel in biblical terms doesn't mean the present country of Israel, there was no country of Israel. There was the northern and southern kingdoms, Judah where we get the term Jew from and Israel the other '10' tribes.

yes, there was a nation called Israel when the kingdom was split and divided from Judah. That is but one more additional definition but not the definition. There are several examples of jews from those supposedly "lost" 10 tribes being called a "jew" throughout the New Covenant scriptures so I have to disagree with the way 2-House adherants define jews as only from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, or Levi. It contradicts the scriptures to redefine the word "jew" or "Israel" in that way.

In it's broadest definition, the word "jew" and "Israel" are completely interchangable and mean the same thing. The physical descendants of Jacob...whose name was changed to Israel on the night he was born again.

Jews were called jews because Judah received the inheritance from his father, Jacob.

Genesis 49:8

Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

Reuben lost it by sleeping with his father's concubine. Levi and Simeon lost it because they killed a city of men after tricking them into being circumcised.

Gen 49: 3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power: 4 Unstable as water, thou shalt not excel; because thou wentest up to thy father's bed; then defiledst thou it: he went up to my couch. 5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations.

This made Judah, the 4th son, inherit the benefits and responsibilties of the first born as pre-eminent among the Tribes.

So, just as all people in all the tribes were sometimes called "Israelites", all the physical sons of Jacob were sometimes called "jews" (of Judah) as a distinction between them and the mixed multitude who came out of Eygpt.

The Orthodox community of Israel believes that the 2 sticks of Ezekial became one when jews began returning from captivity in Assyria (the northern kingdom was banished to there) and Babylon (the southern kingdom was banished here). They formed one nation called "Israel" and this is the nation which Yeshua appeared to.

I don't necessarily see that as the complete and final fulfillment of Ezekial, but their views give us insight to the fact that the "lost" tribes weren't considered to be lost by the jewish community even before the advent of Yeshua.