Why Faith VS. Science, and not Faith AND Science?

[WolfBitn]

I have to admit, I would like to see what "falsifiable" test or evidence anyone would use to show that God didn't do it?

I would like to see what "falsifiable" test or evidence anyone would use to show that Brahma/Alla/a pink alligator didn't do it.

My challenge stands...

so does mine, show me the "falsifiable" test or evidence anyone would use to show that God didn't do it.

I fully belive that God did it all, but there are some things that are beyond the realm of science

Then sit back an d watch, as soon as an atheist admits theres no other valid theory on the table... we are going to start with a complely square clean slate and equal footing here, so just encourage an atheist or an agnostic to admit this small truth first.. i want to know why the delay and why the cop out... lets have a square discussion here

Edited July 28, 2009 by WolfBitn

[canuckamuck]

I am rooting for you Wolf, but I don't fully understand the challenge.

Are you wanting an atheist/agnostic to declare they have no valid theories of how the universe came to be?

Or are you asking them to say that the only valid theory is God did it.

Or perhaps you want them to suggest a theory?

Just helping you to be clear

[WolfBitn]

I have to admit, I would like to see what "falsifiable" test or evidence anyone would use to show that God didn't do it?

I would like to see what "falsifiable" test or evidence anyone would use to show that Brahma/Alla/a pink alligator didn't do it.

My challenge stands...

so does mine, show me the "falsifiable" test or evidence anyone would use to show that God didn't do it.

I fully belive that God did it all, but there are some things that are beyond the realm of science

Then sit back an d watch, as soon as an atheist admits theres no other valid theory on the table... we are going to start with a complely square clean slate and equal footing here, so just encourage an atheist or an agnostic to admit this small truth first.. i want to know why the delay and why the cop out... lets have a square discussion here

I don't think any scientist can conclusively say they know exactly how and why the universe was created. I certainly don't claim to know. But to be valid, all a theory must do to be valid is conform to the evidence. But for arguments sake, I'll concede that I don't know how or why the universe was formed, will that suffice?

Thats fine... but even more im just making sure that as far as you know science has nothing else to lay on the table with this.... is this our agreement? Youre falling just short of saying this, and i just want to make sure we are saying and thinking the same things here lol

[WolfBitn]

I have to admit, I would like to see what "falsifiable" test or evidence anyone would use to show that God didn't do it?

I would like to see what "falsifiable" test or evidence anyone would use to show that Brahma/Alla/a pink alligator didn't do it.

My challenge stands...

so does mine, show me the "falsifiable" test or evidence anyone would use to show that God didn't do it.

I fully belive that God did it all, but there are some things that are beyond the realm of science

Then sit back an d watch, as soon as an atheist admits theres no other valid theory on the table... we are going to start with a complely square clean slate and equal footing here, so just encourage an atheist or an agnostic to admit this small truth first.. i want to know why the delay and why the cop out... lets have a square discussion here

I don't think any scientist can conclusively say they know exactly how and why the universe was created. I certainly don't claim to know. But to be valid, all a theory must do to be valid is conform to the evidence. But for arguments sake, I'll concede that I don't know how or why the universe was formed, will that suffice?

Thats fine... but even more im just making sure that as far as you know science has nothing else to lay on the table with this.... is this our agreement? Youre falling just short of saying this, and i just want to make sure we are saying and thinking the same things here lol

You aren't suggesting that we ignore all scientific evidence are you? For me to take your theory seriously it would still need to account for what we observe in the universe. If it helps, I'm happy to ignore other possible scenarios which we have no hard evidence for, but I can't ignore any actual scientific evidence that might conflict with your theory.

LOL Negative Cool my friend quit stalling and just agree that to the fact that science has nothing as a valid proper theory as defined by science, to show the cause of the bang or expansion.... No more stalling bro, and then you may feel free to try to refute to your hearts content

What is this an atheist backing down form a christian in a scientific challenge? lol

I love ya dude, hang with me and lets go with this

[canuckamuck]

Can you guys do this without re posting everything you said over and over. Two sentence answers shouldn't require scrolling.

[WolfBitn]

Ok, science has no all encompassing theory that I am aware of that adequately explains why or how the universe began. Give me your explanation and lets take an honest and open look. I will warn you that cosmology isn't a field I spend much energy on so you likely have me at a disadvantage and will have to be more explicit in your explanation than you would with someone who really gets into this.

youve got it

first i have to correct a few things... I have to show you what the bible says in the hebrew concerning creation before you can fairly judge this

First lets compare the bible to scientific finding in our fossile record.

Lets establish the fact that the bible is in fact accurate in ALL its claims concerning creation

In science we have various facts laid out, pertinant to our question, and we postulate based on this evidence to theorize, and to test. We test all the various aspects touching this theory, we test for accuracy scientificly wherre observations are noted... we make prediction ...and we test the theory itself

I trust youll allow this lengthy process here, since this is a scientific theory being set forth before you...

What are the observations made in science, can we trust the bible an accurate source for even consideration? Lets see how biblical information stands up to the facts.

Genesis 1

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

hayah is the Hebrew word translated 'was' in this instance

The primary and secondary meanings are...

1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

a) (Qal)

1) -----

a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass

b) to come about, come to pass

2) to come into being, become

a) to arise, appear, come

b) to become

1) to become

2) to become like

3) to be instituted, be established

And the word translated 'void' is

bohuw, meaning void or empty

and 'without form' comes from the Hebrew tohuw, meaning ...

1) formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness

a) formlessness (of primeval earth)

1) nothingness, empty space

b) that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)

c) wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)

d) place of chaos

e) vanity

So what we have in genesis 1 is a declaration that God created the heavens and the earth and the EARTH BECAME a desolate wilderness... Is this an accurate estimation of what science finds in geology?

Yes indeed many tmies we see that since the earths existance, we have seen MANY cycles of life on this earth. Life and destruction, more life and more destruiction as we move from the Proterozoic to the precambrian and cambrian, to jurassic to now.

We find that life sprang form nowhere basicly in the cambrian IN HUGE numbers, and then later died out... we find another cycle going into the jurasic with the dinosaur, that was apparently killed off because of a meteor or astroid impact... and then we work our way eventually to man.

Now do i neccessarily agree with the dating systems? they are entirely inconsistant but lets entertain the possibility that it extends to the billions of years old. This cycle of life is still shown in genesis 1 and hinted at in Ecclesiastes where we see...

Ecclesiastes 1:4

One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Now here in the hebrew the word for generation ALSO means ages or periods... one age comes, and it passes and another age comes ...

and the earth abides forever is properly translated...

1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

a) ancient time, long time (of past)

...and not neccessarily 'forever'

So thus far we see nothing in this creation story that goes against science at all.. but this is just the beginning of a LONG line of evidence, so be as patient as you would be for the EVEN LONGER nonevidence of string theory.

Thus far we are consistant with science, whereas nothing else on the table is because theres nothing else on the table as you agree

so lets check for further prediction and accuracy

Science notes these massive kill offs, periods of life and periods of death... thus far the bible does too, but lets go on with more geology, and more biblical account

Science also notes that there was a massive die off at the end of the jurassic. SOME people say this happened approximately 65 million years ago... but what was the CAUSE of this die off?

Concensus is that a MASSIVE meteor or a small asteroid impacted the earth in the central american region of the earth. Now... WHAT would have then happened and WHY this massive kill?

To put it simply the asteroid would have put MASSIVE amounts of debris into the atmosphere that theoreticly could have lasted hundreds of years... perhaps thousands. At any rate the sun was hidden from view, there was darkess on the earth, volcanoes also adding to the debris and darkness. massive die outs of plants and animal life. The suns rays unable to penetrate the thick gloom covering the earth

Well this is exactly what the bible tells us of the atmosphere in genesis 1

We see DARKNESS... no light... until God says 'LET THERE BE LIGHT'...

Now after a destruction such as we see ending the jurassic. we had MASSIVE debris, thick blackness, and EVENTUALLY the atmosphere began to clear... ONLY allowing some of the suns rays to shine through, and yet the sun and moon and stars would have remained invisable... diffused light, but enough to begin the process AGAIN...

THEN on day 2

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

WHAT is this saying? lolol

Very simply put... in the Hebrew there are 3 'heavens'. "Heaven is used interchangable to refer to our atmosphere, ourter space, and the home of God beyond what we know as the universe.

We will see on later days that this firmament called 'heaven' is our atmosphere

Note that the elements are still somewhat confused and we have water in the atmosphere that divides itself, some around the atmosphere (above it) and some below the atmosphere... oceans rivers lakes... Now this isnt to say ALL the water was in the atmosphere and divided but certainly it says SOME...

this means that OUTSIDE the atmosphere, a water vapor surrounded the earth... this would CERTAINLY be consistant with a huge impact in the central american gulf, sending debris, steam and PLENTY of water into the atmosphere.

Now, do we have any planetary models that fit this description??? We certainly do... venus has a outer layer of water surrounding its atmosphere as well... But do we have any evidence that this may have been the case here on earth?

We certianly do... we have fossile evidence indicating that at one time this entire planet surged into a semitropical paradise from pole to pole, with tropical vegetation growing thickly EVERYWHERE at the same time... This greenhouse effect grew with the clearing of the atmosphere, allowing more heat to hit the earth, and the warmth of the earth couldnt escape as it reached the water vapor, encapsulating it, spreading the warmth of the earth from pole to pole.

but wait... theres so much more

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13And the evening and the morning were the third day.

So here we see the atmosphere being cleared, and the beginning of the greenhouse effect because of the water vapor also surrounding the atmosphere, beginning to take effect in bringing forth life... the grasses and herbs and shrubs and trees... just as we find in the fossile record

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

NOW... dont say 'well God created the sun on the 4th day? Because thats just the translation... THIS ISNT what the hebrew says. The word 'CREATED' here is not the same as 'created' an genesis 1:1... Gen 1:1 does indeed mean a new creation, but here "God made" REALLY should be interpreted as 'God made TO APPEAR"... SO WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS THE COMPLETE CLEARING of the atmosphere... further enhansing life and the greenhouse effect

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

and low and behold... LIFE springs from the seas... just as the fossile record indicates happened FIRST... AND SHOWS that BIRDS TOO were brought forth eventually form the sea... just as the fossile record indicates...

Note too that the birds fly in THE HEAVENS... this is an instance where heaven refers to our atmosphere

This is only a taste... its almost 3 am and i need to sleep... but tomorrow i will pick up where i left off, and we can continue comparing what the Hebrew says with what the fissile record indicates... we will examine the biblical accuracy, we will make predictions, we will test those predictions and we will eventually have the entire theory set before you and we can determine whether or not this theory that "God created the heavens and the earth" is in fact falsifiable

I hope you can appreciate the fact i stayed up to do this much for you so far tonight

God bless you Negative Cool

Edited July 28, 2009 by WolfBitn

[artsylady]

I think it should be evolution versus creation. Both take faith, both are studied by scientists.

[canuckamuck]

Yes indeed many tmies we see that since the earths existance, we have seen MANY cycles of life on this earth. Life and destruction, more life and more destruiction as we move from the Proterozoic to the precambrian and cambrian, to jurassic to now............. Science notes these massive kill offs, periods of life and periods of death... thus far the bible does too, but lets go on with more geology, and more biblical account..............Science also notes that there was a massive die off at the end of the jurassic. SOME people say this happened approximately 65 million years ago... but what was the CAUSE of this die off?..............Concensus is that a MASSIVE meteor or a small asteroid impacted the earth in the central american region of the earth. Now... WHAT would have then happened and WHY this massive kill?.................To put it simply the asteroid would have put MASSIVE amounts of debris into the atmosphere that theoreticly could have lasted hundreds of years... perhaps thousands. At any rate the sun was hidden from view, there was darkess on the earth, volcanoes also adding to the debris and darkness. massive die outs of plants and animal life. The suns rays unable to penetrate the thick gloom covering the earth

Well this is exactly what the bible tells us of the atmosphere in genesis 1

We see DARKNESS... no light... until God says 'LET THERE BE LIGHT'...

Now after a destruction such as we see ending the jurassic. we had MASSIVE debris, thick blackness, and EVENTUALLY the atmosphere began to clear... ONLY allowing some of the suns rays to shine through, and yet the sun and moon and stars would have remained invisable... diffused light, but enough to begin the process AGAIN...

THEN on day 2

so what you are saying is that the "MANY cycles of life on this earth", the Proterozoic ,precambrian, cambrian and jurassic all took place prior to God saying "let there be light"?

Am I reading that right?

I think we should resist being critical before we see the whole argument. Personally I thought he handled the light conundrum creatively. But I am sympathetic to YEC, so it will take a big finish to move me.

[nebula]

so what you are saying is that the "MANY cycles of life on this earth", the Proterozoic ,precambrian, cambrian and jurassic all took place prior to God saying "let there be light"?

Am I reading that right?

God said, "Let there be light," after the Spirit of the Lord hovered over the waters, which occured after the earth was/became formless and void.

This is plainly how it is written in Scripture.

BTW, this is for thought, not to hijack the thread with a bunny trail -

But why would God need to create light if "God is light"? (Just think about it.)

[WolfBitn]

Thus far we are consistant with science, whereas nothing else on the table is because theres nothing else on the table as you agree

Not even a little bit. You predicated your point on the non-existence of a natural explanation for the big bang singularity and have spent all your time up to this point discussing the creation of the earth for which there is an enormous amount of scientific evidence that is most definitely "on the table". There is nothing specifically in your interpretation of the creation of the earth that predicts anything unique from our understanding of how the earth formed through naturalistic means, and since scientific theories to this effect are much much much more detailed and explain much much much more observable evidence I fail to see why your explanation should be considered "better" than what we already have.

ahh so youre not going to allow the bible the same scientific scrutiny youll allow Godless theories... i see... why do you have this bias?

Are you saying scientific theory doesnt deal with facts surrounding the issue being theorized? are you saying information isnt checked for accuracy?

Science notes these massive kill offs, periods of life and periods of death... thus far the bible does too, but lets go on with more geology, and more biblical account

No, the Bible does not. You've interpreted the bible to mean that the earth "became" formless and void; that does not indicate "massive kill offs" of life unless one reads into the text our current understanding of paleontology that we figured out by studying the earth, not the bible.

Ive interpreted nothing... ive shown you the hebrew meanings... im sorry you have a problem with this

Science also notes that there was a massive die off at the end of the jurassic. SOME people say this happened approximately 65 million years ago... but what was the CAUSE of this die off?

Concensus is that a MASSIVE meteor or a small asteroid impacted the earth in the central american region of the earth. Now... WHAT would have then happened and WHY this massive kill?

To put it simply the asteroid would have put MASSIVE amounts of debris into the atmosphere that theoreticly could have lasted hundreds of years... perhaps thousands. At any rate the sun was hidden from view, there was darkess on the earth, volcanoes also adding to the debris and darkness. massive die outs of plants and animal life. The suns rays unable to penetrate the thick gloom covering the earth

Well this is exactly what the bible tells us of the atmosphere in genesis 1

Allright. . .so Genesis 1 starts with the extinction event 65 million years ago. . .let see how this plays out.

Thats what we are doing, and so far you cannot say the hebrew reading is inconsisstant with science

Also as with many people i have a real life as well and today is a busy day... i will return shortly and pick up where i left off, so patience... if you find yourself impation to the point you cant allow this, feel free to post another valid theory... until then allow the groundwork youd allow ANY theory

Edited July 28, 2009 by WolfBitn