WolfBitn Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 "The Bible says so" is never a valid argument. o by all means dont just be a fly by... you feel free to take a crack at my last post, make yourself at home dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted August 2, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 2, 2009 Thats odd... gravity is a law of physics and it seems to be working just fine if its crunching a mass to infinite density... so explain why gravity is working but nothing else is? It's not that physics don't work at all at or near a singularity, it's that they don't work the way they would in normal space. Remember, according to general relativity gravity isn't a "force" like we're used to thinking about but is, instead, an effect of the curvature of spacetime. The more mass an object has the more of a distortion in the curvature of spacetime it will create. Lurker youre into the BS realm right now... and im guessing you know this. If you know gravity at all youre aware of the fact that we dont even know what it is... we dont know if its a particle or a wave... The fact is youre in a spot because on one hand you have to believe the laws of physics werent working... because otherwise its neccessary come up with a CAUSE for the bang... by removing the laws of physics you can say that everything was unpredictable and there wasnt anything neccessary to cause it... no outside force needed... BUT... on the other hand you have to have gravity working... So which is it... were the laws of physics working and something effected the singularity, or was there no gravity to hold it together in the first place? You also need to keep in mind what laws and theories are and how they are different. In science laws describe things and theories explain them. When we say "the laws of physics break down" or "the laws of physics stop working" in regards to a singularity that doesn't mean that the way the universe works just takes a siesta, it just means that the models we use to describe the way things work stop being able to explain what we see. And this should prove to you that SOMETHING OUTSIDE of the singularity effected it... youll never be able to explain this without God and you have over 100 years of history to prove it.... This is your assumption that nothing else was working that day... correct? Every law of physics had to take the day off but gravity... how does this work? Or isnt it so that in the atheistic model without God, you NEED for them to not work? And no, I don't NEED them not to work in order to support my atheism because I am not an atheist. How would you define yourself... which God do you believe in? Also if gravity has created a pinpoint of infinite density, why hadnt this happened previously? Why did it happen when it did? What occured to MAKE gravity draw mass into infinate density? How much force would it take to make this happen? Where did this force enter in at and where did it come from? In a black hole a singularity is created by the collapse of a very large star. As far as the big bang singularity is concerned we have no way of knowing. We know that all matter, energy, time and space was compressed into a tiny point 13.5 billion years ago and expanded rapidly from that point on, that's the big bang theory. You dont KNOW it if its only a theory... correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted August 3, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Lurker youre into the BS realm right now... and im guessing you know this. If you know gravity at all youre aware of the fact that we dont even know what it is... we dont know if its a particle or a wave... A particle or a wave? Are you serious? Light dude, light is what has people asking if it's a particle or a wave. You can read all about it here. NO ONE knows what gravity is... there are 3 theories, and bear in mind THEORIES... 1) Gravity is a wave 2) Gravity is a particle 3) Gravity is a particle wave, and theyre STILL trying to figure out what a particle wave is The fact is youre in a spot because on one hand you have to believe the laws of physics werent working... because otherwise its neccessary come up with a CAUSE for the bang... by removing the laws of physics you can say that everything was unpredictable and there wasnt anything neccessary to cause it... no outside force needed... BUT... on the other hand you have to have gravity working... The big bang theory explains what happened after the singularity started expanding. It doesn't attempt to explain why it started expanding or where it came from and neither have I. Understanding the implications of relativity applied to the origins of the universe as starting at a singularity doesn't remove the need for a first cause, it just explains what happened once that first cause had kicked things off. Then tell me what the problem is when it comes to a 'first cause'? Hint... it has to do with an outside force being neccessary So which is it... were the laws of physics working and something effected the singularity, or was there no gravity to hold it together in the first place? Please go back and re-read my last post. . .SLOOOOOWWWLLLLY as you appear to have completely missed it the first time. Just because you posted, it doesnt mean you tackled this quesiton, and you havent... the laws of physics are natural laws... gravity is part of this... either gravity wasnt in effect, and there could be no crunch, or ALL the laws were in effect and we need a cause for the bang... which is it And this should prove to you that SOMETHING OUTSIDE of the singularity effected it... youll never be able to explain this without God and you have over 100 years of history to prove it.... That's not something I argue against, but it's impossible for science to determine what occurred past the event horizon of the big bang singularity at this point. Why is it possible to trace it to just before the bang and yet impossible to have an idea how it happened? How would you define yourself... which God do you believe in? The same one you do, I just don't think He built a deceitful universe. I dont either... you think i do? Whats a deceitful universe have to do with this, im not tracking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted August 4, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 NO ONE knows what gravity is... there are 3 theories, and bear in mind THEORIES... 1) Gravity is a wave 2) Gravity is a particle 3) Gravity is a particle wave, and theyre STILL trying to figure out what a particle wave is I'm no physicist, but I've never heard of gravity as a wave. There is a quantum theory of gravity that postulates particles called gravitons, but it has a myriad of problems as no one has figured out how to reconcile it with relativity. There is also something called a gravity wave, but that isn't a theory of gravity, it's an effect of gravity. I still think you're mixing up gravity with light. uh huh, i think you know better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave Predicted by Einstein's theory of general relativity, the waves transport energy known as gravitational radiation. Sources of gravitational waves include binary star systems composed of white dwarfs, neutron stars, or black holes. Although gravitational radiation has not yet been directly detected, it has been indirectly shown to exist. Like i said, THREE theories concerning the make up of gravity... if you need to see one on the particle wave theory let me know Then tell me what the problem is when it comes to a 'first cause'? Hint... it has to do with an outside force being neccessary I'm not seeing how this is a problem for the big bang theory since the big bang theory doesn't try to explain it. yes i love atheistic science lol... lets just take it back this far and stop... it works fine to this point, but from there on we're screwed... So again... first cause. Isnt it amazing that without God theres absolutely no theory AT ALL even addressing first cause? Just because you posted, it doesnt mean you tackled this quesiton, and you havent... the laws of physics are natural laws... gravity is part of this... either gravity wasnt in effect, and there could be no crunch, or ALL the laws were in effect and we need a cause for the bang... which is it Amazingly, the universe doesn't seem to care for your "either/or" scenario. Neither do atheists... they generally run around it very much like you just did Why is it possible to trace it to just before the bang and yet impossible to have an idea how it happened? Because we are not able to explain how things work in a singularity, all our descriptions for how forces and spacetime should act no longer work. So then you are forced by default to agree that the only thing making sence is a miracle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted August 4, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 uh huh, i think you know better A few posts back I introduced you to gravity as the warping of space time by objects with mass according the Eistein's theory of relativity. o stop lol a few posts back you said i was the mixed up one, and talked like gravity is proven to be a particle... then you see its not even decided, there are various theories, and you dont want to look bad, you dont want to admit you were wrong, but you obviously were... as a christian i want to point out that its not the christian grasping for straws and using bad science in this case Notice that the first sentence is the same explanation I gave you previously and you immediately seemed to dismiss as "bunk". Furthermore note that a gravitational wave is an effect produced by this curvature of spacetime under special circumstances, it is not a definition of what gravity is. what i dismissed as bunk was you claiming i was mixed up lol yes i love atheistic science lol... lets just take it back this far and stop... it works fine to this point, but from there on we're screwed... So again... first cause. Isnt it amazing that without God theres absolutely no theory AT ALL even addressing first cause? Oh there's plenty of theories addressing the "first cause", for instance there's the Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems, but I don't see any of them as particularly strong since, as of yet, we have no way to test them. Wrong... there may be postulation but there isnt a single theory by scientific definition of 'theory' Neither do atheists... they generally run around it very much like you just did There's simply nothing to run around. You are asserting that gravity either has to function exactly as we think it should or it shouldn't function at all - this is simply not the case. Deal with it. Theres more running... just because you shy from "God created" you are stuck trying to postulate that physics DIDNT work even when you see gravity was working prior to the bang... what circles godless science must grasp for So then you are forced by default to agree that the only thing making sence is a miracle The evidence indicates a "supernatural" cause in my opinion in that whatever kicked off the big bang must have existed outside all time, space, matter, and energy. That does not, however, indicate the Christian God by default. Ok now we are getting somewhere... your first statement that it took an outside cause Now... let me challenge you on your statement that it isnt the christian God... or do you believe it was? Which God do you postulate created this outside force and whats your evidence of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted August 4, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 The evidence indicates a "supernatural" cause in my opinion in that whatever kicked off the big bang must have existed outside all time, space, matter, and energy. That does not, however, indicate the Christian God by default Well said. Matrix... im glad you agree... which god do you say created that cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted August 4, 2009 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 4, 2009 DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. My opinions are my own. You do not need to accept them if you dislike them. Dear Matrix, I agree with you. Nope, just crazy chance. Read "The Drunkard's Walk" you'll know what I mean. After a long enough period of time, even the smallest (mathematical) chance of something happening happens. It reminds me of this analogy: Although you are new at golf, you have just hit a beautiful 200-yard drive and your ball has landed on a blade of grass near the cup at Hole 3. The green contains ten million blades of grass. The odds of your ball landing on that blade of grass are 9,999,999 to one against, too improbable to have happened by mere chance. What's the explanation? a) The wind guided it b) Your muscles guided it c) There is no need for an explanation d) You consciously designed your shot to land on that particular blade Regards, UF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted August 4, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian. My opinions are my own. You do not need to accept them if you dislike them. Dear Matrix, I agree with you. Nope, just crazy chance. Read "The Drunkard's Walk" you'll know what I mean. After a long enough period of time, even the smallest (mathematical) chance of something happening happens. It reminds me of this analogy: Although you are new at golf, you have just hit a beautiful 200-yard drive and your ball has landed on a blade of grass near the cup at Hole 3. The green contains ten million blades of grass. The odds of your ball landing on that blade of grass are 9,999,999 to one against, too improbable to have happened by mere chance. What's the explanation? a) The wind guided it b) Your muscles guided it c) There is no need for an explanation d) You consciously designed your shot to land on that particular blade Regards, UF It takes more faith for you to believe energy and matter always existed, has no conscience, yet created all we see AND conscienceness, than it takes for me to believe "God created" Yours is a blind faith, my faith is an educated one, and backed by ALL evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted August 4, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted August 4, 2009 So then you are forced by default to agree that the only thing making sence is a miracle Nope, just crazy chance. Read "The Drunkard's Walk" you'll know what I mean. After a long enough period of time, even the smallest (mathematical) chance of something happening happens. So given time (endless time - time that does not exist in terms we can understand), you must therefore admit that the return of Jesus will happen? Or are you postulating that Jesus never existed, or that the possibility does not exist because it is not mathematical but theoretical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfBitn Posted August 4, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 483 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/22/2009 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 o stop lol a few posts back you said i was the mixed up one, and talked like gravity is proven to be a particle... then you see its not even decided, there are various theories, and you dont want to look bad, you dont want to admit you were wrong, but you obviously were... as a christian i want to point out that its not the christian grasping for straws and using bad science in this case Your reading comprehension skills are depressing, I have never talked like gravity is proven to be a particle. I explained to you that there is a quantum theory of gravity which involves particles called gravitons that is highly speculative and explained the implications of gravity as a depression of spacetime based on the mass of an object. As a human being with a brain that can read you should be able to read back through my posts and figure this out. My conprehension are fine... you went on explaing gravity as though you were sure it was a fact... i merely pointed out that you dont KNOW... because we only have theory Theres more running... just because you shy from "God created" you are stuck trying to postulate that physics DIDNT work even when you see gravity was working prior to the bang... what circles godless science must grasp for Gravity was not working prior to the big bang singularity because there was no matter. Our current laws of physics cannot describe how physics work in a singularity, it's really not much more complicated than that. You can rail all you want about our descriptions of how forces operate are somehow absolute pronouncements of divine knowledge but the fact of the matter is that they are just descriptions. There are no physics police that are going to show up and ticket a black hole for not following the law. Thats what i was waiting for you to say... in the bolded You have quite a quandry here since it takes gravity to hold this ball of energy/matter in its tight lil ball. It took gravity to take it to a pinpoint of infinite density prior to the bang... Guth even postulates that the bang was cause by a sudden powerful inversion of gravity, though he admits he has nothing to back this postulation... this is part of his 'eternal inflation' theory Ok now we are getting somewhere... your first statement that it took an outside cause Now... let me challenge you on your statement that it isnt the christian God... or do you believe it was? Which God do you postulate created this outside force and whats your evidence of it? I believe that God was the first cause, but that is an article of faith not science. Scientific observation can take us back to a point where the natural laws of the universe can no longer account for the origin of the universe but it cannot take us past that point in determining what specific deity or weird quantum process actually did (at least not yet). All players need to understand the limits of this game. In your OPINION its only an article of faith not backed by science... i disagree with your opinion. What i am interested in knowing is which God you attribute this bang to? Which do you lean toward if you dont have a sure thought on it and why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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