can salvation be lost?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

Show me where Paul, who's conversion is fully documented, where and when exactly is he saved? How did Paul decide anything when Christ struck him blind? How about Peter when was his conversion shown in scripture? Was Peter saved when he denied Christ? Was Peter saved when before denying Christ he said that Jesus was Christ? When did it happen, what was the moment? No one including these guys themselves can point to the moment in time idea, they simply had faith and they ran the race, they made it to the end. What if Peter had died right after denying he even knew Christ? What does Jesus say about those who deny Him in front of men? You’re adding to scripture, you’re putting up new human requirements to faith. Now all of a sudden it is not enough to have faith in Christ, you must have faith that came about in this particular way.

I agree...most Christians these days have an unbibical approach to salvation such as alter calls, sinners prayers, etc... The things most christians point to as salvation are not bibical. When did Jesus or his disciples ever ask someone to bow their heads and say the sinners prayer. Jesus and his disciples did not do these things. Their messeage was simple, repent and believe and you shall be saved. Many churches to day offer a false sense of salvation. Alter calls and sinners prayers dont bring salvation. A life of repentance and faith is what saves. A sinners prayer no matter how well you prayed it is worthless unless your willing to deny yourself take up your cross daily and follow Christ. Christ messeage was a message of action and faith. Faith with out works is not true faith.

No one is talking about altar calls or the sinner's prayer. Those are not biblical, but neither are they anti-biblical and do not violate any biblical doctrine. They simply offer a point of contact for the believer, that is all. What I am referring to is a moment a person chooses to accept the gospel from the heart. It really is not more complicated than that.

I believe they do violate biblical principle when people replace true faith and repentance with superficial alter calls and sinners prayers. People run to these alter calls thinking if I only go up and say a simple sinners pray I will have eternal security. They walk away from this experience thinking they have eternal life and not once did they consider the cost of following Christ or turning from sin. Yet they will use that experience to say they they are born again regardless of their lifestyle and Calvinist will pat them on the back telling them they have eternal security because of it.

[Guest shiloh357]

I believe they do violate biblical principle when people replace superficial alter calls and sinners prayer with true faith and repentance.

Really, and who does that??? You are assigning things to people just to make an emotional, judgmental rant. I doubt you are qualified to assign such values to other people.

People run to these alter calls thinking if I only go up and say a simple sinners pray I will have eternal security.

Again, you really don't know that. That is just more emotional drivel.

They walk away from this experience thinking they have eternal life and not once did they consider the cost of following Christ or turning from sin.

You don't know what you are talking about. I guess you have set yourself up as the judge and jury and tried and condemned everyone who goes to the altar at the end of a church service.

Yet they will use that experience to say they they are born again regardless of their lifestyle and Calvinist will say they have eternal security because of it.

You don't know beans about Calvinists. So everyone who goes to an atlar call is just going to continue living in sin???? And you are qualified to make that judgment because of.... what?

I do believe in the born again experience but it happens when people totally surrender the life and truely turn from sin and place their faith and trust in God. They have considered the cost of what it means to follow Christ and they know that its a life time commitment not a one time experience.

And no one who has ever gone to an altar has done that???

You have a very shallow, one-dimensional understanding of the nature salvation

[Jedi4Yahweh]

I believe they do violate biblical principle when people replace superficial alter calls and sinners prayer with true faith and repentance.

Really, and who does that??? You are assigning things to people just to make an emotional, judgmental rant. I doubt you are qualified to assign such values to other people.

People run to these alter calls thinking if I only go up and say a simple sinners pray I will have eternal security.

Again, you really don't know that. That is just more emotional drivel.

They walk away from this experience thinking they have eternal life and not once did they consider the cost of following Christ or turning from sin.

You don't know what you are talking about. I guess you have set yourself up as the judge and jury and tried and condemned everyone who goes to the altar at the end of a church service.

Yet they will use that experience to say they they are born again regardless of their lifestyle and Calvinist will say they have eternal security because of it.

You don't know beans about Calvinists. So everyone who goes to an atlar call is just going to continue living in sin???? And you are qualified to make that judgment because of.... what?

I do believe in the born again experience but it happens when people totally surrender the life and truely turn from sin and place their faith and trust in God. They have considered the cost of what it means to follow Christ and they know that its a life time commitment not a one time experience.

And no one who has ever gone to an altar has done that???

You have a very shallow, one-dimensional understanding of the nature salvation

I am not saying this is the case for everyone but I have seen this happen many times...including myself growing up in Calvinist church.

[greg47]

Apostle Paul assures us that born-again believers are "in Christ" and that Christ is "in the Father." So if those in Christ are eternally lost after being saved, Christ Himself would have to be lost with us as we're in Him. Likewise, the Father in heaven would have to eternally lost too as Christ is in the Father! The fact is that the only salvation Jesus Christ offers us is eternal salvation, never 'temporal salvation' which would be no salvation at all. Amen & Amen!

Yes, if the desire of the persons heart is to remain in Christ, you are correct. Yet, there are those who do turn away that were once in Christ.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

These will loose their salvation. There is no way that anyone can read these verses and claim that they were never a true Christian.

In relation to the last sentence of the quote above, what I find intriguing and frustrating about the quoting of Hebrews 6:4-6 is that people never seem to quote the following lines:

Hebrews 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case

[kross]

That is funny. It is in scripture and reads as follows.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Being a partaker is more then conviction. Look it up.

HIS grace to you,

And there in lies the mis-understanding.

I understand that this is a scripture specific to those it was written to. Hebrews who might have considered leaving the truth of JESUS to return to the old ways, and trusting in the old sacrifices. It is not something that refers to me in any way.

You feel that this "Partaking" means "Indwelling". I see it as someone who has been in the presence of and possibly even touched by, but not necessarily indwelt.

One stands near a fire and feels the heat and enjoys the comfort. One has not been indwelt by that fire and should they turn away from it, there is no other source of warmth. If that fire becomes a part of them, they willl be changed and it will be permanent.

Now, as you well know, we can toss scriptures back and forth forever. There are clearly scriptures that are interpretted either direction based on which foundation one comes from. I have reached a point in my life where I do not put so great a concern on which point anyone comes from. If one believes he can loose his salvation, it likely helps him to stay on a narrow path. If one doesn't believe he can loose his salvation, than it likely gives that person the freedom to trust in GOD to keep him saved and safe as he moves into areas and deals with people and situation that cause the latter to fear being influenced.

My strength comes from my relationship with JESUS. It is not anything that is of me or my will. It is simply born of the nature GOD has given me. I walk in this relationship trusting my life and salvation to JESUS. Now, maybe it's true that this is just me being blind to some scriptures or maybe it is born of too much trust. I just do not think a person can trust JESUS too much. Particularly with regard to salvation.

So, I lean on those scriptures that clearly tell me I am adopted by GOD as one of HIS children, sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT who is given to me as a gaurantee until the day of my redemption.

It's all good.

HIS Peace to you and yours

If you look at Hebrews in this light, then you have to also look at most of scripture in the same manner. Where ever it does not say Gentiles, you must reject. All scriptures were written to a specific group of people, or a certain person, and not you, so you have to just read it like a book and learn what God did for this group or person, and not apply it to your life. You limit His word this way.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New King James Version)

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Was this scripture only for Timothy or was it for everyone to learn from? It was sent to just Timothy.

Looking at Hebrews 6:4-6 and saying that it was just about the Hebrew mindset and history is wrong according to what Paul wrote Timothy. To think that Hebrews 6:4-6 is just a warning to the Hebrews limits God so much, and He is not limited by man. This passage ties in to what has been said about the falling away in the last days. Scripture confirms scripture.

All scriture has to be read in context. For instance;

Do you really believe that Paul was saying his letters were scripture? No. He was refering to the old testament, not the writings of himself or his contemporaries.

Yes, the BIBLE is the word of GOD. Inerrant and perfect. But it does have to be read in context.

I am using the term scripture because that is what we call it, and you know this. Just in case you didn't, you do now, so care to answer the question?

The scripture to Timothy is for all of us to learn from. And I responded to your interpretation of the scripture from Hebrews as if I believed it to be towards us as well.

The point was that Paul was not referring to people who were indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT. He was referring to those who were as the seed that fell amoungst the thorns. Once they heard the word and it effected them and they believed what they heard the cares of the world choked it out. This is not true for those who are the ground prepared to recieve the seed. In them, it flourishes and produces fruit. It is GOD who prepares the ground/person to recieve the seed.

One plants, another waters, but it is GOD who gives the increase and GOD will never remove that increase.

[Rick-Parker]

I believe they do violate biblical principle when people replace superficial alter calls and sinners prayer with true faith and repentance.

Really, and who does that??? You are assigning things to people just to make an emotional, judgmental rant. I doubt you are qualified to assign such values to other people.

People run to these alter calls thinking if I only go up and say a simple sinners pray I will have eternal security.

Again, you really don't know that. That is just more emotional drivel.

They walk away from this experience thinking they have eternal life and not once did they consider the cost of following Christ or turning from sin.

You don't know what you are talking about. I guess you have set yourself up as the judge and jury and tried and condemned everyone who goes to the altar at the end of a church service.

Yet they will use that experience to say they they are born again regardless of their lifestyle and Calvinist will say they have eternal security because of it.

You don't know beans about Calvinists. So everyone who goes to an atlar call is just going to continue living in sin???? And you are qualified to make that judgment because of.... what?

I do believe in the born again experience but it happens when people totally surrender the life and truely turn from sin and place their faith and trust in God. They have considered the cost of what it means to follow Christ and they know that its a life time commitment not a one time experience.

And no one who has ever gone to an altar has done that???

You have a very shallow, one-dimensional understanding of the nature salvation

I am not saying this is the case for everyone but I have seen this happen many times...including myself growing up in Calvinist church.

That my friend, is just as much your fault (if not more so), as it is your youth pastor. You failed to read and understand your Bible. Your pastor failed to impress upon you (or you failed to hear) what salvation really means, and what is required of you in order to know for sure that you are saved.

That said, I've gone to Calvinist teaching denominations all my life, and in my 54 years I have never heard my church leaders say that I didn't have to change my lifestyle and my sinful living. I've always been told the opposite. If you don't change, if you are not indwelled by the Holy Spirit, then you aren't saved. I can't understand how one can sit back and honestly say and believe that any denomination would teach that nothing other than the knowledge of Christ's sacrifice will save. But that is what is being propagated in this thread. It is a basic misunderstanding of what Calvinism really means and how it is taught.

And it doesn't seem to matter how many times it is denied or explained, anti-Calvinists refuse to understand or accept the truth that we are saying in that we don't believe that way.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Parker1

[kross]

There are no examples in the Bible of anyone either giving up their salvation or God revoking anyone's salvation.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also; and being baptized, he adhered to Philip. And being astonished, wondered to see the signs and exceeding great miracles which were done. 14 Now when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. 15 Who, when they were come, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them; but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw, that by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said to him: 20 Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

That is not an example of what a person who gave up their faith. It is an example of a very deceived and misguided individual.

An individual who imediately asked for forgiveness. Hardly one who lost their salvation.

And, since he didn't know how the HOLY SPIRIT was passed, obviously was not one that was indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT.

[kross]

Apostle Paul assures us that born-again believers are "in Christ" and that Christ is "in the Father." So if those in Christ are eternally lost after being saved, Christ Himself would have to be lost with us as we're in Him. Likewise, the Father in heaven would have to eternally lost too as Christ is in the Father! The fact is that the only salvation Jesus Christ offers us is eternal salvation, never 'temporal salvation' which would be no salvation at all. Amen & Amen!

Yes, if the desire of the persons heart is to remain in Christ, you are correct. Yet, there are those who do turn away that were once in Christ.

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

These will loose their salvation. There is no way that anyone can read these verses and claim that they were never a true Christian.

In relation to the last sentence of the quote above, what I find intriguing and frustrating about the quoting of Hebrews 6:4-6 is that people never seem to quote the following lines:

Hebrews 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case

[Guest shiloh357]

I believe they do violate biblical principle when people replace superficial alter calls and sinners prayer with true faith and repentance.

Really, and who does that??? You are assigning things to people just to make an emotional, judgmental rant. I doubt you are qualified to assign such values to other people.

People run to these alter calls thinking if I only go up and say a simple sinners pray I will have eternal security.

Again, you really don't know that. That is just more emotional drivel.

They walk away from this experience thinking they have eternal life and not once did they consider the cost of following Christ or turning from sin.

You don't know what you are talking about. I guess you have set yourself up as the judge and jury and tried and condemned everyone who goes to the altar at the end of a church service.

Yet they will use that experience to say they they are born again regardless of their lifestyle and Calvinist will say they have eternal security because of it.

You don't know beans about Calvinists. So everyone who goes to an atlar call is just going to continue living in sin???? And you are qualified to make that judgment because of.... what?

I do believe in the born again experience but it happens when people totally surrender the life and truely turn from sin and place their faith and trust in God. They have considered the cost of what it means to follow Christ and they know that its a life time commitment not a one time experience.

And no one who has ever gone to an altar has done that???

You have a very shallow, one-dimensional understanding of the nature salvation

I am not saying this is the case for everyone but I have seen this happen many times...including myself growing up in Calvinist church.

Well, then you should couch your remarks as anecdotal instead of trying to paint with broad over-generalizations.

[leoxiii]

There are no examples in the Bible of anyone either giving up their salvation or God revoking anyone's salvation.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also; and being baptized, he adhered to Philip. And being astonished, wondered to see the signs and exceeding great miracles which were done. 14 Now when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. 15 Who, when they were come, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost.

16 For he was not as yet come upon any of them; but they were only baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw, that by the imposition of the hands of the apostles, the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said to him: 20 Keep thy money to thyself, to perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

That is not an example of what a person who gave up their faith. It is an example of a very deceived and misguided individual.

An individual who imediately asked for forgiveness. Hardly one who lost their salvation.

And, since he didn't know how the HOLY SPIRIT was passed, obviously was not one that was indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT.

You should study the Early Church Fathers.

Simon Magus is the father of all heresies.