Christian persecution in America

[Axxman]

Sorry, but that does bring up a point, that this belief is very widespread, and also now in America and Canada. There have been some 'honor killings' in Canada too.

Yes, domestic violence is very widespread...all over the world, in many different religions, irregardless of race, age, or gender.

It IS part of their religion.

Not according to Islamic leaders who have patently, and repeatedly, condemned this violence:

Punishment for apostasy was completely abolished by the Ottoman Turks by a decree of the Ottoman government in 1260/1844.

The Ottoman Caliphate, the supreme representative of Sunni Islam, formally abolished this penalty

[Axxman]

I think that it can easily be seen that the Koran does condone violence, including murder. There are many verses in the Koran and Haddith that can easily be taken that way.

Do you now accept the teaching of all apocryphal books? How is the violence in the Quran different than the violence in the bible?

You will not be excommunicated as a Muslim for doing violent acts. You will be applauded.

There is no process in Islam to excommunicate a Muslim. However, there are sins that are considered unforgivable. They do believe that you can damage your relationship with Allah beyond repair...but they won't kill you for it.

Bottom line I guess is: Do you actually believe Islam is a 'religion of peace'? The only commandments Muslims have toward peace is toward other Muslims.

That again is so false. While there is certainly a history of war and rivalry between Christians, Jews, and Muslims...it is just wrong to say that any of them didn't seek peace. Don't forget that Muhammad had no ill will towards Jesus...he simply (and wrongly) didn't identify Jesus as the Christ. But he did not hate him. However, there was clearly alot of dislike for those who followed Christ because he viewed them as a rival for converts. We Christians are known for spreading our Gospel...and Muhammad wanted to stop that. However, there are plenty of Quranic scriptures calling for peace with the 'enemy'.

I know that Islam is a religion of peace. I also know that some evil people have taken advantage of poverty and uneducation in the middle east and used the Quran to propel their own agendas, and increase their own power. There have been times in the last 2000 years in which the bible was used in the exact same way...for the exact same purpose.

[nebula]

I thought I would try to stay out of this circular debate this time...but I felt compelled to say something here.

What violence does the Quran condone?

To interpet the Quran correctly, you need to consider the author of the Quran.

Muhammed was a very violent man.

What violence did he not condone?

There is no process in Islam to excommunicate a Muslim. However, there are sins that are considered unforgivable. They do believe that you can damage your relationship with Allah beyond repair...but they won't kill you for it.

Then why are so many persecution reports coming out of Islamic countries concerning Muslim converts to Christianity? And if it's just "fringe" groups and people, why are the governments not intervening on the Christians' behalf?

Click here

Edited October 12, 2009 by nebula

[spiritman]

America is a haven for Christians, which makes the title of that post very misleading.

That story doesn't mean that Christians are persecuted in America.

This is a nation where Christian society rules as strongly as they choose over those who make our laws.

This is a nation where almost all of the population call themselves Christians.

This is a nation where churches are rightfully given tax free status.

Failure to be thankful to God for the overwhelming gifts showered on our nation may well lead to the loss of those gifts.

interesting; apparently you live in a different world then I do; just recently I was working a security job, and on this job, we set at a desk most of the time, and I and another security officer would talk about things, any thing we wanted. So one day we got to talking about the Bible, within a week my boss called me in the office and told me; " WE DON't Want any Christians around here!!". They actually got so upset they brought in a guy who was a martial art expert, and he began threatening me, So in order to avoid a major problem I left that job. I then went to put my application in at a local hospital for a transporter position. The lady asked me why I left the security job beings I've been in that line of work for 15 years.

I was honest; and told her that my boss found out I was a Christians; and told me I wasn't welcome; and that they brought a guy in who threatened me. She looked at me and said; " Looks like your going to have to learn to get along with people"; Needless to say I didn't get the job. Whether or not we as Christians like the ideal or not, God is going to try us by fire; and America, now that we have turned away from God, is ready for true christians to be tested.

So if you believe that this is a truly a Christian nation; go to your work, and try witnessing to your co-workers, and too your boss, and I don't mean just walking the walk, I mean verbally. Then come back in a couple of months and tell me that this is truly a Christian nation.

[spiritman]

I remember watching the news a few years ago, and watching an islamic cleric brag on the fact, that Islam could take over a country without firing a shot. I was intrigued so I did some research, here is what I came up with.

I was thinking over the Rifqa Bary's situation and remembering about some articles I read a few years back; concerning the same thing happening in Canada. Yes honor killings are on the rise in those nations with growing Muslim populations. see news article on earliest honor killings in Canada: Click on following link http://www.canada.com/Honour+killings+girl...3895/story.html

Why the concern?

Some Christians may ask; Why should I be concerned It doesn't affect me?

But just like on a beach when a Tsunami approaches, first thing that usually happens is; all the water on the beach goes out, leaving an empty beach. Doesn't look threatening at first, until the water comes back in as one or more destructive waves. But by then it's too late.

How to take over a country

Rule 1:Connect yourself with a group that has fat pockets, and lots of lobbying power, and take it too court over and over until the laws you want passed, does pass:

While Rifqa Bary's situation doesn't seem very threatening right now to us as Christians. I believe it is the tide leaving the beach just before the big waves hits.

For example lets take evolution; evolution's first stop was in the courts, can we ever forget the famous scopes trail in 1926 that rocked the nation. click on following link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopes_Trial

And not to mention in 1960 thePrayer in public schools became an issue in 1960: Madalyn Murray O'Hair sued the Baltimore MD school system on behalf of her son William J Murray, because he was being forced to participate in prayer in schools. Ultimately, her actions and the actions of the American Atheist Organization resulted in the Supreme Court ruling of 1962.

click on link below

http://www.allabouthistory.org/prayer-in-public-school.htm

Or how about the January 22, 1973 Supreme courts decision on Roe vs Wade, click on link below

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/hist...10_0113_ZS.html

Same Sex marriage groups are bogging down our court systems trying to change the current constitution, to meet their own perverted needs; this despite the American publics desire for One man One woman marriage. click on link below

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5090602076.html

Not to mention the cases that came after these cases, just like those; I don't believe we have seen the last of Honor killing cases.

My point here is that the agenda is to cram it down our throats and eventually change our laws, into laws that are ant-christian.

Rule 2: Move into the country that you wish to take over, and out breed it citizens:

click on following link http://www.allied-media.com/AM/

In about 50-100 years since you now out number your enemy you can now vote those into office who's political views match your own.

click on following link http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53241

Rule 3: Those you voted in will now change the laws to match your political views, everyone else will have to submit.

Rule 4: Get into the American Public school system and indoctrinate our Kids

click on following link : http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?.../cstillwell.DTL

So Why should Christians be concerned about the plight of Rifqa Bary, Because if we turn our backs now; like that water drained beach, before the Tsunami; those bigger waves are a coming. In conclusion, if this trend continues, The America we know, will no longer exist...

congratulations you have conquered another country. The evidence is mounting.

[Axxman]

I thought I would try to stay out of this circular debate this time...but I felt compelled to say something here.

I'm glad you jumped in...you ask honest questions and make good points.

To interpet the Quran correctly, you need to consider the author of the Quran.

Muhammed was a very violent man.

What violence did he not condone?

I would have to say (once again) that getting info about Muslims from people who hate muslims is not a very good idea. Muhammad was not intrensically a violent man...but he definitely had violence in his life. He was attacked, and he did attacking. Most of the quranic verses that are violent are verses about war. Its a little much to get into here, but suffice it to say that there was a lot of tribal fighting in Muhammad's time and he set out the rules of engagement in those battles. He also issued clear orders against the killing of civilians, including women, children, and even those who were engaged in worship of any kind...so he clearly did not condone random violence. War makes a man violent, there is no other way to fight....but peace also begets peace, and Muhammad's life saw plenty of peace too.

Then why are so many persecution reports coming out of Islamic countries concerning Muslim converts to Christianity? And if it's just "fringe" groups and people, why are the governments not intervening on the Christians' behalf?

I wouldn't call them "fringe" groups. Countries in which that type of stuff happens are run by people with a twisted view of Islam. They are countries that are overrun with poverty and hunger, and a largely uneducated public. The religious leaders have all the power in those countries and they use it for evil gain. You simply CANNOT compare the muslims in Somalia or Iran to the muslims in Ohio...or Sri Lanka. It is two vastly different cultures.

Yes...there are some flat out evil countries in the world today...and at this point in history those countries happen to be run by people who are using Islam to promote that violence. There was a time in history when evil men used the bible in the same way...but that didn't make all Christians evil and violent then...and it doesn't make all muslims evil and violent now.

[Axxman]

While Rifqa Bary's situation doesn't seem very threatening right now to us as Christians.

Are you kidding? As a parent, the Rifqa Bary situation is extremely threatening. My teen could hook up with some adult online...who could then help her run away from home...he could hide her for weeks from the authorities...and then convince her that I am a murderer...and suffer NO punishment.

In the meantime, my life could be ripped wide open as the media and the gov't tear me apart as some raving lunatic who wants to do horrible things to my daughter. People who hate my way of life could raise millions of dollars publicly shaming me. They could exploit my daughter and tear our relationship apart. They would bring in a few "educated" atheists, who hate christians, to discuss my beliefs and tear down my church and my community. My rights as a parent are completely dissolved.

The Rifqa situation seems pretty threatening to me....

[Guest shiloh357]

I thought I would try to stay out of this circular debate this time...but I felt compelled to say something here.

What violence does the Quran condone?

To interpet the Quran correctly, you need to consider the author of the Quran.

Muhammed was a very violent man.

What violence did he not condone?

There is no process in Islam to excommunicate a Muslim. However, there are sins that are considered unforgivable. They do believe that you can damage your relationship with Allah beyond repair...but they won't kill you for it.

Then why are so many persecution reports coming out of Islamic countries concerning Muslim converts to Christianity? And if it's just "fringe" groups and people, why are the governments not intervening on the Christians' behalf?

Click here

Excellent points.

I would point out that in any "religion" the way to measure how "good" a person is relative to that relgion is to measure them agasint their founders. So a "good" Muslim would have to be measured agaisnt Muhammed. Muhammed was a VERY violent man. He encouraged and preached violence. Muhammed, was by any measure, an insane man

The terrorists are not good people, but they are good Muslims. They are following the teachings of Muhammed. Liberals ignorantly try to whitewash the kind of man of Muhammed was. If he were alive today, he would be either a terrorist, or he would be locked up in an asylum for the mentally ill. Muhammed was a psychopathic, murderer and a pedophile.

BTW, for those who try to compare Islamic violence based on the Koran with the violence done by Christians who thought they were following the Bible, I would point out two things:

1. Most of those participated in the crusades were criminals/prisoners who were hired by the Catholic church and were promised absolution and freedom in exchange for their participation.

2. Those who used the Bible to justify violence had to twist and pervert the Bible to do it. Muslims on other hand do not have to twist the Koran in order to justify their hatred and right to murder nonMuslims. It is still true today.

[Axxman]

I would point out that in any "religion" the way to measure how "good" a person is relative to that relgion is to measure them agasint their founders.

You mean like Moses? Who murdered a man. Who ordered the murder of women and Children. Who saved the young girls who were 3 years and 1 day old for his men? There was plenty of violence to go around back then.

The terrorists are not good people, but they are good Muslims. They are following the teachings of Muhammed.

There isn't one iota of proof to validate that claim. The over-whelming majority of muslims would disagree with that statement. Terrorists are not even considered muslims by most of the Islamic community. Islamic leaders all over the world have condemned terrorism and have rebuked those who would use the Quran to justify their cause.

Liberals ignorantly try to whitewash the kind of man of Muhammed was.

Get ready for it...I agree with you. The kind of man Muhammad was is the clearest indicator that he was NOT some Holy man who had the truth of salvation. It is the clearest evidence against the false religion of Islam. In many ways, you could say the same thing about Mormonism. Unfortunately, most people don't go beyond some blogger or wikipedia understanding of the historical context of the Quran. Yes, Muhammad said some violent things when it came to protecting his people...but he also spoke of peace...and lived most of his life in relative peace.

1. Most of those participated in the crusades were criminals/prisoners who were hired by the Catholic church and were promised absolution and freedom in exchange for their participation.

Well, that makes it okay then...

2. Those who used the Bible to justify violence had to twist and pervert the Bible to do it. Muslims on other hand do not have to twist the Koran in order to justify their hatred and right to murder nonMuslims. It is still true today.

What makes you think that both books aren't twisted and perverted for evil purposes by evil men??? In fact, the Muslims have followed the Christian example of excusing the violent parts of their bible as historical context (i.e. that doesn't apply to us)...which is the accurate portrayal of both books. Nobody should read the Holy Bible and pull select verses out of their historical context and try to prove something about modern day Christians. Nobody should read the Quran and pull select verses out of their historical context and try to prove something about modern day muslims.

[anitarose]

All I can say is WAY TO GO, FLORIDA---You just signed a death warrant for a 17 year old girl. Hope you're happy now.

There are times I hate this state and this is one of them.

a.