Lanakila Posted March 7, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 400 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2002 You are forgetting the 144,000 Jewish Male Virgin Prophets, that are spoken of in the book of Revelation. As a pre-triber the Holy Spirit does go with the church at the rapture (from my understanding) but the witnesses (much smaller than the church) are going to start winning many especially the Jews to Christ. Those that are saved during the tribulation will recieve the Holy Spirit just as we do so the Holy Spirit will be here but because there are fewer Christians (none at the beginning of the tribulation) the lawless one will be revealed. There will be those saved immediately after the rapture as they find out they really weren't or realize their family members were right. But, the majority will believe the lie of the antichrist because of the strong delusion, and the false miracles and even false (temporary) peace he brings to the middle east. Yes, the antichrist will bring peace at first, until the abomination of desolations, when that peace is abandoned for his desire to be worshiped as God. I noticed I seem to be outnumbered here, I am not quoting scripture in this post but believe me this is based on scripture and not just my own opinion. Not only that lots of people believe in a pre-trib rapture, I am not alone and we aren't all chickens or stupid. There are many Bible Schollars way smarter than I that follow the pre-trib tradition, in fact one of our great seminaries has some of the best teachers of this position. The main thing is be ready, whenever the rapture and try to snatch as many out of the hands of the evil one as you can. We the church need to be about the father's business and win men, women, boys, and girls, to Jesus. My burden is for the many lost who will believe the strong delusion, if the tribulation comes as soon as it seems it will. The muslims for example are not being reached at all, I know that they don't want to be reached, but there is only one way to heaven and that is through belief in Jesus. They are believing a lie and we need to reach them with the gospel. Someone needs to get smart and come up with a way to reach the multitudes, because it isn't being done. As I type this I know 9 fingers are pointing back at myself, I just have a burden (given by the Holy Spirit) that this world is almost totally unreached and we go about our business as if its ok, its not ok. Sept 11 was a terrible tragedy, but many more than that die everyday without Christ and they do go to ####. Something has to be done, I am praying for revival but it needs to be a world wide revival and I am not sure that is going to happen (its possible though). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xan Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 What about the letter Paul writes to the church in Thessalonia in which he states we will not be gathered unto our L-rd until the lawless one is revealed desecrating the temple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xan Posted March 7, 2002 Share Posted March 7, 2002 Mcfly, assuming, for the moment, it will be a pre-trib rapture, if no one gets saved during the tribulation, then how is the antichrist going to make war against the saints? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanakila Posted March 7, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 400 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2002 I know the passage of scripture you are talking about Xan and agree that 2 Thes is talking about the second coming of Christ. I believe though that that is at the end of the tribulation 7 years after the rapture has already happened. The rapture isn't at the second coming because for one thing it makes no sense that he would call the believers up and immediately turn around and have the battle of Armmegeddon. We are raptured then the tribulation begins; after the lawless one is Revealed. Rev 19 teaches about the second coming but the rapture is separate (7 years prior) from reading 1st and 2nd Thes and even Daniel and Revelation. At the rapture we will meet the Lord in the air, He won't come all the way to earth 1 Thes. That is decidedly different than the second coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfly1960 Posted March 7, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 21 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2002 Quote: from Xan on 11:15 am on Mar. 7, 2002 What about the letter Paul writes to the church in Thessalonia in which he states we will not be gathered unto our L-rd until the lawless one is revealed desecrating the temple?I believe that you are referring to II Thessalonians 2:3-4 and 7-8. In verses 7-8, I think we can see the order of the events. We can see the Rapture, the Reign of the Antichrist, and the Second Coming as separate events [brackets added to illustrate]: "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out [Rapture] of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed [Reign of the Antichrist] , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. ["Second" coming , the wrath of Almighty God (Revelation 19:15), where the fowls are filled with the flesh of all men (Revelation 19:18,21), and their blood flows to the horse's bridle (Revelation 14:20) ] " II Thessalonians 2:7-8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfly1960 Posted March 7, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 21 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 7, 2002 Quote: from Xan on 11:31 am on Mar. 7, 2002 Mcfly, assuming, for the moment, it will be a pre-trib rapture, if no one gets saved during the tribulation, then how is the antichrist going to make war against the saints?We know there will be Martyred Tribulation Saints and a remnant of 144,000 Israelites with the mark of God in their foreheads, and the 2 Witnesses, who will be present during the Tribulation. During the antichrist's reign, I believe that Matthew 24:13 comes into play, where it says "he that shall endure until the end shall be saved", and that these Martyred Tribulation Saints get their "white robes" in heaven as we see in Revelation 6:11.This is in comparison to believers who are saved in the Church age, who get their "white robes" on earth. We know this from Revelation 7:14. (The "great tribulation" in Revelation 7:14, I believe, refers to the Church age. The Great Multitude here is seen in heaven, having "washed their robes". The Martyred Saints don't have robes to wash..they get them in heaven.)It should be noted that the antichrist's system has already been working against the saints in thisage from the very first century. The ultimate war with the saints will be when Christ returns with the saints to defeat the antichrist and his system.It should also be noted that when the wrath of God is poured out, particularly as seen in the vial judgements of Revelation 16, those that have the mark of the beast or who worshipped his image will "repent not", so I don't see this group as a target for evangelism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teri Mc Posted March 8, 2002 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 189 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/11/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2002 If the people saved during the tribulation receive the Holy spirit than he can not be the restrainer. The Holy Spirit is not parceled out a little here because there are few christians. If he is here than he is here in his completeness. Perhaps the restrainer is Michael. He is also referred to as the Protector of the Jews. I am also one to think if it is the Holy Spirit it would just say that. As for taken out of the way the scripture does not say by means of leaving the earth. To be out of harms way could mean any measure of things. Also the Anti-Christ will be revealed before the end of the Trib when the Jews recognize him and leave the Holy City. I also don't believe any more it may be a different message to Jews and Gentiles because if we are of one tree than it is one message. I don't know if I'm making any sense here, but I see our safety being administered to, but not a rapture.Love in Christ Teri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanakila Posted March 8, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 400 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2002 Teri, I politely disagree and will give you this as an evidence. The Holy Spirit living in Christians is the restrainer right now. If you go to a pagan or even muslim country you can "feel" the lack of restraint. A missionary friend of mine said as soon as you get off the plane in then at the time Iran you can feel the oppression. In other words where there is not the Christian influence and Holy Spirit restraint evil is stronger. This will be what happens after the rapture to a much more extreme degree. The scripture never mention Michael as the restrainer that I recall and if you find one please let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Soldier Posted March 8, 2002 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 5 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2002 Scriptures that illustrate Michael as the restrainer?Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.In the quest for holiness and truth,Unknown Soldier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanakila Posted March 8, 2002 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 400 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2001 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2002 Sorry, Unknown I don't get that at all from that scripture passage. I just read it and don't see that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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