Fullness of the Gentiles?

[tsth]

Hopefully I can get all the posts back in the order they were left out. Thank you George!

In His Love,

Suzanne

Amen George and that could happen any minute-----

I believe too that when the last gentile is saved then the door is then shut to the gentiles.

Love in Christ,Angels

OneAccord

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Joined: Oct. 2002 Posted: May 09 2003,07:48

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George:

Thank you for that 2Thess verse. It helped me a lot to build on what has been being revealed to me in my Bible studys lately.

In light of that verse then, the Left Behind movies got it all wrong in showing people being saved after the Rapture.

This is actually very misleading and takes away the sense of urgency.

Good point One Accord. We all need to be urgent spreading the gospel!

Adstar

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Joined: Sep. 2002 Posted: May 09 2003,11:51

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Hello Dr Luke

Revelation 6

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

"until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

I don't know what this number is but once it is reached then the Messiah shall come.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Dr. Luke

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Joined: Sep. 2002 Posted: May 10 2003,23:56

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Fellow Saints,

All this I understand.

What of Caleb the kennezite and Ruth the Moabitess?

These were Gentiles who were saved and grafted in to the Tree even before there was an extension of Grace to the Gentiles. They believed on Faith like Abraham and were redeemed.

Now if this were possible before Grace was extended to the Gentiles and the Times of the Gentiles was not even here yet?

Why would there be a slamming of the door after the Fullness of the Gentiles? If there be none before the Times of the Gentiles?

My understanding of Caleb is that his father was a kennezite. Caleb when the Jews fled Egypt clung to them becoming part of them even inheriting a portion of the land thru Judah. He later gave the land to the Levites.

I agree when the Lord comes and takes His own. The apostates will stand outside and knock saying thus and thus. These apostates are even on the rise now.(Look at those who would cast off Israel not knowing the Truth.)

I guess your saying that there will be a time when mercy is cut off. To that I agree as well. G-d is long suffering. Won't those saved Jews who will come to Christ need to be saved in the same time period of Mercy and Grace?

I guess my sincere question being if Grace be Grace and Mercy, Mercy doesn't it apply the same to everyone?

The same way it applied to those Old Testament Jews and the Gentiles who clung to them? Who believed on Faith and had it accounted to them. For surely it was not of following the Law that saved them? It was the faith and trust that G-d would fulfill His promise that did. No one was ever saved by following the Law because no one was perfect save the Lord.

What of Matthew 5?

Where the Lord say's He came to bring fullness to the Law and the prophets? To fulfill it and them?

GBU all

Peace Amen

Quote

Where the Lord say's He came to bring fullness to the Law and the prophets? To fulfill it and them?

Do you believe then, that the Law is fullfilled in us? Can it be so? You do not have to answer, but.....I ask that you ponder this fullness in your heart. And the Power of the Lord Jesus Christ that is now realized. Can we adhere now....if we have Jesus Christ within each of us?

In His Love,

Suzanne

George

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Joined: June 2001 Posted: May 11 2003,04:57

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Look at it this way -- we cannot fulfill the law! This is the whole reason for the Messiah! So when Jesus came he fulfilled the requirements of the law which was required by all of us and made the payment for the law so that the law is completely fulfilled in Him. He made the necessary atonement which was required of the law.

But my hypothetical/or not so hypothetical question was this:

Was Jesus "able" to fulfill the law in the flesh? And what happens to us, if He lives "within" us?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

Sorry Dr. Luke,

I didn't find your last response on this, and I really wanted to read it. It was not here.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Matthitjah]

Suzanne,

If He truly resides within you? You should truly begin to change. The old man should yield to the new man. You should thru His grace become like Him. Suffering not the things of the flesh. Seeking all the things of the Spirit.

I agree our flesh cannot fulfill the Law. Knowing that, We should follow the Spirit of the Law and not the letter which will lead us to Salvation.

Who was the Fulfillment of the Law which led to Salvation?

Jesus!

Knowing also that Israel was hardened in part for our Salvation.

Will the church come too the fullness of this revelation and act accordingly? By realizing the perfect Will of the Head. That by His sacrifice all would have Salvation thru the hardening of the Israelites. Thereby having Grace extended to the Gentiles.

Note last night in my study of Romans . I came across in Romans 11:12

Now if their fall is riches for the World, and their failure riches for the Gentiles?, how much more their Fullness!

Then in Romans 11:25

For I do not desire , brethern, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Then in Romans 11:28-32

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

For the gifts and the calling of G-d are irrevocable.

For as you were once disobedient to G-d, yet you have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,

Even so these also have now been disobediant, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

For G-d has commited them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

So how are we to treat the enemy of our Salvation and mercy? Not with condemnation. As in Romans 12. We Christians should lead transformed lives. Not thru our own power as we could not even live up to the Law. Thru the power of the one who resides within us we will change.

Then as for our enemy?

Romans 12:14-20

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.

Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.

Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

Repay no one evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.

If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

Beloved do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to Wrath; for it is written."Vengence is mine ,I will repay," say's the Lord.

Therefore,

"if your enemy is hungry, feed him;

If he is thirsty, give him a drink:

For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

You will provoke him to jealousy! He will seek what you have. He may even see what you have that he is missing.

If Fullness of Prophets and Law were Christ. Then Fullness of Gentiles and all Christianity ought to be the fullness of the purpose for our being in the first place.

For Christ fulfilled that which was first.The prophets and the Law. He had to as George posted because we could not live up to them. Now that we have His Spirit residing in us we ought to desire to do His will. We ought to desire to fulfill that which was first . That Salvation comes from Judaism.That what was given to us was meant to provoke them to jealousy.

Of course God prearranged it this way hardening their hearts so that Salvation could come to all.Yes even us. So what do we owe Israel for this? Our very Salvation.

What would be fullness but to recognize this and act accordingly.

Does this make sense to any one.

GBU all

Peace :il: Amen

[wordsower]

Rom. 11:25: For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away the ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away thier sins."

What is the fullness of the Gentiles?

Isaiah 11:1-4: There shall come forth a Rod (Jesus) from the stem of Jesse (Israel), and a Branch (Christians) shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. His delight is in the fear of the Lord and He shall not judge with the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth, He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 1:10 "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious.

I believe that the door is shut for the rapture, not salvation. I believe this because in the parable of the 10 virgins, the door was shut to 5 of them but they were still virgins and invited to the wedding, they just didn't get to go to the Marriage Supper

[Guest yod]

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[rollinTHUNDER]

Here's a few words taken from my new unposted and unfinished thread. I didn't go very deep into it, but this part kinda fits this thread.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I believe that forcing Israel to give up land for peace would qualify as an act of cursing Israel, and Joel 3:2 says that God will punish whoever divides up His land, and this will probably also include the Israeli's who have a hand in it as well. One thing is sure, Jerusalem will be a cup of trembling and a burdensome stone. Zech.12:2-3 says that all who burden themselves with it will be cut to pieces.

Jerusalem will continue to be the hot spot in the world until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (end of the church age), and Daniel's 70th week (7 yr. tribulation) begins.

Luke 21:24b - "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Romans 11:25 - "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."

So it would appear that Israel will remain temporarily blinded until God has fulfilled His purpose in the church, and then Daniel's 70th week will begin. This makes sense because when Messiah was cut off by Israel, they were rejecting salvation. Because they rejected God's salvation, God then offered it to the Gentiles, and this is when the times of the Gentiles began. So there can be no peace for Jerusalem until the times of the Gentiles are finished. This is another reason why I believe the rapture will precede the 70th week of Daniel.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings All,

Yikes! If I had to decide what the "truth" was from all these posts, I would be in one heck of a mess. Fortunately I shall trust the scriptures to reveal the truth:

When did the days of the "fulness of the gentiles" begin?

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1484 ethnos {eth'-nos}

probably from 1486; TDNT - 2:364,201; n n

AV - Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2; 164

1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or

living together

1a) a company, troop, swarm

2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus

2a) the human race

3) a race, nation, people group

4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans,

Gentiles

5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

The final seal on the door of the Kingdom of God taken from Israel was at the cross, sealing them from their once sole ownership(?) of the Kingdom. Here is where the ministry to the Gentiles began:

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

1484 ethnos {eth'-nos}

probably from 1486; TDNT - 2:364,201; n n

AV - Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2; 164

1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or

living together

1a) a company, troop, swarm

2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus

2a) the human race

3) a race, nation, people group

4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles

5) Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

Now if you look at Romans 9-11, you will see that in:

Ch. 9 - Paul laments that Israel, who are his brothers in the flesh, did not receive Christ when He came.

Ch. 10 - Reveals the "manner" in which salvation will occur (generally to everyone, but specifically to Israel) and that is - How can they hear unless someone is sent?

Ch. 11 - Reveals that for a time (until the fulness of the gentiles be come in [to the Kingdom of God] ) God will maintain ONLY a remnant, but Paul goes on to say this:

Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

REMEMBER Ch. 10 wherein Paul says "How can they hear unless someone is sent?

This leaves no doubt (at least in my feeble mind) that it will be Christians who will deliver the Gospel (the power of God unto salvation - Rom 1:16) to the Jews for their salvation. The REMNANT will always be maintained of Jews by the Christian witness of the Gospel, but in the last days - when the "fulness of the gentiles" is being reached, it is they who will take the Gospel in a powerful outpouring of "mercy" to Israel.

Now I think we agree that:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

So there is ONLY one plan of salvation for both Jew and Gentile. And if you read Ephesians 1-3 carefully, you will see that what God is going to do BEFORE the coming of the Lord is:

Eph 2:16-22 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Now hearken back to the days of construction of the Solomon Temple. It had to be built and all the vessels and adornments were to be made and everything prepared and THEN dedicated BEFORE the "Shikanah Glory" came to reside in the Holy of Holies.

This is precisely what is happening today with the Body of Christ. It is being prepared to be a "habitation wherein God shall dwell through His Holy Spirit", and it will be composed of both Jew and Gentile.

To support this, we find an interesting event that will occur when that day arrives that the "habitation" is prepared:

Matthew 17:10-11 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

In the next verse (12), Jesus is speaking specifically of John the Baptist who came in the spirit and power of Elijah, "to make straight paths for the Lord", but as you can see in the above verses, WHEN Elias returns again, it will be to "restore all things". This will be the COMPLETION of the "habitation", and it will be God's Holy Spirit that will reside in the Holy of Holies of Christ's body on this earth.

THEN the end will come.

BTW, the promise to Abraham that he would be the "father of many nations" DID NOT COME THROUGH ISRAEL, it came through ISAAC. Please read your New Testament.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest yod]

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[Guest yod]

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[Matthitjah]

I am curious?

When the Word went to the Gentiles? Was there not also Jews saved as even today there is a remnant?

I mean the Jews were not precluded from being saved. After the Gentiles received the Word. They were partially blinded.

So how can this fullness of the Gentiles be a cut off from any more Gentiles entering the kingdom? This is the fallicy I see with this doctrine. I know G-d will turn His attention to Israel. He even is now! Yet we still see Gentiles being saved.

Tribulation in my mind is even on us. Yet we are still here. So what then Great Tribulation?No reason for G-d to turn tail and pull His witness.

What if things happen precisely the opposite way we think? We are only presuming the way it is taught is the way it will be. In Christs time He told the Apostles many times what would happen. They could not understand it until it had passed. Same thing with Elijah coming in Spirit in John the Baptist. This was truly the Spirit of the Lord. We see this in Mary's encounter with Elizabeth. Also Elijah could not have done the things he did alone but only from the Spirit resting on him. Only G-d Himself has such power. When Elijah went up in the Whirlwind the mantle of Elijah fell to Elisha who then exercised this power in due course.

Whenever the Jews were under persecution from one nation or another throughout history life went on. Even today as the supposed Peace Plan is unfolding life goes on. "They will marry and be given in marriage." Life will go on people will try to cling to the World and its Glamour. People will be saved.

Israel will come under increasing pressure. Will we fully recognize our fullness? Christ came to fulfill the Law and the prophets. Salvation came to the Gentiles until the Fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

My Bible KJV doesn't say "the full number of Gentiles" it says "until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in." If fullness of the Law and Prophets is Christ? Doesn't it stand to reason Fullness of Gentiles is the Fullness of our purpose? What was the purpose of Salvation going to the Gentiles? To provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Have we accomplished this? NO!

Look at Romans 11:12

Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness.

What will the Jews fullness be? It will be the fulfillment of their purpose which is achieved thru Christ. Salvation! How can we be more rich in their fullness?

Romans 11:15

For if their being cast away is ther reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Sounds like Ressurection to me.

It has been in the past that these people will not hear unless they see. Yet they are partially blind. They are like Thomas. How will they see? Who rent the vail in the Temple? G-d will fight for them for His good name and the testimony of His Word the Truth. Then they will believe.

Right now they are trusting in the World.

Quote Ariel Sharon

"The time has come to say yes to the Americans, the time has come to divide this land between us and the Palestinians,"

They think America will save them when the time is right. I fear at the cost of oil we will turn our backs. Not us Christians but the country by and large.

Anyone who is in opposition to G-ds written Word is in opposition to G-d.They are the spirit of Antichrist. Just as the Romans were so now are we.

When G-d is thru completly breaking them of this whoring they do as with the Egyptians, Babylonians et all..... Then He will come and set them free. They must call on Him when all their dependance on the World has run out.

Why are they Whoring after America? The same reason they were whoring after others in the past. They lack the Faith to place it all in G-ds hands.

I Love my country, but above all that I Love the Lord my G-d with all my heart and soul!

GBU all, think on that for a while!

Peace :il: Amen