CSLewis Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 828 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/28/1980 Share Posted November 13, 2009 They had a cross made out of horseshoes welded together . Who??? The cowboy church I went to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted November 13, 2009 The discussion on this thread is quite revealing, there is so much negativity that is speculative, baseless and in my opinion self-righteously judgmental...which probably needs to be addressed alot more than the Pastor. Thoughtfully....Botz I don't think I am being judgemental when I saw that I think that gambling in church is not scriptural. I don't think it is, and while I in no way question this pastors love or commitment for the Lord, I just think that the way he is going about his services at the moment is wrong. There can be so many ramifications arising from this. stuff we cannot even know because it happens behind closed doors. So I don't judge him, or the church, but this is not scriptural, thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted November 13, 2009 The discussion on this thread is quite revealing, there is so much negativity that is speculative, baseless and in my opinion self-righteously judgmental...which probably needs to be addressed alot more than the Pastor. Thoughtfully....Botz I don't think I am being judgemental when I saw that I think that gambling in church is not scriptural. I don't think it is, and while I in no way question this pastors love or commitment for the Lord, I just think that the way he is going about his services at the moment is wrong. There can be so many ramifications arising from this. stuff we cannot even know because it happens behind closed doors. So I don't judge him, or the church, but this is not scriptural, thats all. amen fez. no one saw my post it seems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted November 13, 2009 o restate my first post and expound some. In my opinion is this; 1.The pastor has been made out to be people greedy trying to grow his church. I read the wording of this article and it seems to me that him wanting more people in his Church was something that was forced out of the guy as the whole rest of the article seems to be about him trying to teach Godly financial principles and using this as a tool. The church growth came from this yes but was it the main motivation? 2.People in here are judging the man, based on his deeds. People here are also judging his deeds. We are to have discernment over his deeds but we can only judge the deeds by the fruit. Sorry about that I disagree with you on that Onelight. The measuring rod for this is his apparent motives. Are his motives loving or selfish? We cannot know that. But from what I can see this is out of a attempt to help his current flock to be more wise with money. Now do not get me wrong it may not be a wise idea but not likely a wrong or extra biblical one. 3.Is what he doing wrong? We see the casting of lots many times in scripture. It was believed at the time that God controlled the lots and therefore chose the right answer. This is likely not true but a thought. Also if you are against this you must be against every church fund raising raffle. I have seen many of these. Someone donates a bike, the church goes all buy tickets and one person wins. This is a form of gambling but yet somehow acceptable. Again I am not saying him doing this giveaway is wise nor something we should emulate but do not judge him. I say this anyone who wants to judge him, go meet him, hang out at his church and see what Fruit you see, if any. 4. The financial principles he is teaching are sound Biblically. What is wrong with cutting up credit cards? We are not to owe anyone anything but Love, so that applies. Saving is Biblical as well. Spending less then you make is also in the Bible. Now would I bring in bankers to the church to help, YES I would. But only if I happened to have a church member who happened to be a banker. I would ask if he could answer questions, maybe have a separate meeting time to help set things up. This would be wisdom to have someone who knows what they are doing to teach people the right way. Now I don't think I would bring in professional bankers from nearby banks that would create a conflict of interest. 5. Does this equate to money changers that Jesus chased out? NO! This is different. The money changers were straight up thieves. They sold sacrificial animals that were perfect for sacrifice. But first you had to change your Roman currency to temple currency. They would charge outrageous rates for the currency exchange that they had created in the first place, and then rip you off when you bought your goods on top of that. The motive was Greed and it was wrong. This by appearances is not greed. Again the motive at least to start appeared to be to help and teach not to rip off or get something for nothing. Again I cannot judge this man, I can not judge his deeds save from the fruit and the side effect seems to be more church goers. This does not mean the lost per say. Most church growth in America is from Christians church hopping, not really, sadly, From new Christians. So this goes back to him wanting to help. So I don't think the giveaway is wise, but I think he got a lot right. I posted a poll on debt that sprung from this post. the numbers and replies are interesting. I think this person is half completely on track. the other half is sketchy. I do think this report is suspect and one side and sensationalized. The last article I read that felt like this was extremely one sided to make the pastor and Christians look bad and they used some of the same wording. So before we win and Olympic medal for jumping to conclusions, lets pray and sift out the good from the bad. There is a baby here, lets not lose it with the bathwater. So tell me if any of the following is not scriptural or wrong. As part of the lessons, Willis set up a shredder near the pulpit to encourage church members to shred their credit cards and commit to stop spending. He talks about budgeting, tackling past-due bills and saving. He encourages the prize winners to use the money to pay down their bills, rather than splurge on new items Now imagine him teaching this without the prize would it still be newsworthy, or wisdom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 13, 2009 The discussion on this thread is quite revealing, there is so much negativity that is speculative, baseless and in my opinion self-righteously judgmental...which probably needs to be addressed alot more than the Pastor. Thoughtfully....Botz I don't think I am being judgemental when I saw that I think that gambling in church is not scriptural. I don't think it is, and while I in no way question this pastors love or commitment for the Lord, I just think that the way he is going about his services at the moment is wrong. There can be so many ramifications arising from this. stuff we cannot even know because it happens behind closed doors. So I don't judge him, or the church, but this is not scriptural, thats all. Now Fez...did I mention your name! Isaiah 6:8 said.... amen fez. no one saw my post it seems! Ahem bro...if you were following what was being said, you will find that I made a clear, positive and direct reference to your well reasoned input. Best regards. Botz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I have been to a cowboy church wedding it was ... Different. Not my cup of tea - baptism in a horse trough ? No thanks. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn. Luke 2:7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSLewis Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 828 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/28/1980 Share Posted November 13, 2009 How is that applicable to this conversation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer1997 Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,363 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 9 Joined: 11/07/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted November 13, 2009 How is that applicable to this conversation? I do not presume to speak for Brother Joe - but I think the similarity with our Savior being born in such modest setting and the horse trough as a baptism? Maybe...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSLewis Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 828 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/28/1980 Share Posted November 13, 2009 There is a difference between modesty out of necessity and baptism in a horse trough. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with it - just not for me. But if all we had was a horse trough then I would have no choice- If The innkeeper said we have a suite with a view of Bethlehem or you can sleep in the stable with the livestock - I would hope Joseph would have picked the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer1997 Posted November 13, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,363 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 9 Joined: 11/07/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted November 13, 2009 There is a difference between modesty out of necessity and baptism in a horse trough. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with it - just not for me. But if all we had was a horse trough then I would have no choice- If The innkeeper said we have a suite with a view of Bethlehem or you can sleep in the stable with the livestock - I would hope Joseph would have picked the former. I have never had that image... hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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