Fez Posted November 15, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves and were filled.John 6:26 I have recently read that instead of taking in up to $25,000 a week, he now brings in $40,000 a week. But,even a car salesman knows that once you start these worldly marketing schemes to keep the money and customers coming in, you have to out do the garage up the street, or the people will go there instead. The scripture in John shows that Jesus did in fact use the gimmick though...right! He DID feed them, and they did follow Him...right? And then...he did preach to them right? Don't be critical of the person using the tools (or what you call a gimmick)...be critical of those who take the kindness in the wrong way. You wouldn't dare blame Jesus for blessing the people he fed...and yet you take the same scripture and use it to blame the pastor for blessing the people he's feeding. Furthermore, Jesus made his comments because the people were attempting to take advantage of Him...not because they truly understood (or cared) about His message. I think it is clear that in Chicago, this Pastors message is being received and applied by the members of the church. You made the slight accusation that "he" (the pastor) is "bringing in" $40, 000 a week. The reality is...and it doesn't quite cast as much mud at the pastor as your terminology does...the church members are responding to this pastors teaching by tithing more to the church and its ministries. The people in this church aren't just sitting around waiting to be blessed, as the people in your verse quatation were. The people in this church are responding in a positive way to this pastors message of God First finances!! Axx.. I had a hard time with this initially - but yes, I think that this is something that this pastor was lead to do for his flock. I'd love to know more of the insight he had to doing this, which on the outset seems so ... wrong - yet is helping people. We have families come to our church each week when there is a potluck meal to be served - and there are so many more of them than there used to be - I'm convinced it's because they need the meal! The food bank we sponsor with several other churches was nearly devastated a few weeks ago - we prayed and talked to many in the community and our shelves are full once again!!! We are able to minister to many who need the food - they are coming to church now and are part of our church family - I feel a change in our whole community - people who were just 'there' are now standing up and being counted! They are helping the outreach ministries and getting involved with the families we help. It's an amazing and positive change - I feel the Holy Spirit at work. Axx, in the case of Jesus feeding people, or the church Believer attends feeding people, all are fed. Straws are not drawn, nor is a lottery conducted so the lucky few may be fed. In the case of Believer's church, when food ran out they prayed, did outreach, and the Lord provided. Gambling was not involved in either case. Again I ask, what is the difference between pulling a pew number out of a hat, or putting a slot machine set to give out $1000 to one lucky punter in the foyer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted November 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2009 Axx, in the case of Jesus feeding people, or the church Believer attends feeding people, all are fed. Straws are not drawn, nor is a lottery conducted so the lucky few may be fed. In the case of Believer's church, when food ran out they prayed, did outreach, and the Lord provided. Gambling was not involved in either case. Again I ask, what is the difference between pulling a pew number out of a hat, or putting a slot machine set to give out $1000 to one lucky punter in the foyer? Hey Fez... Its not gambling...I'm sorry that you don't get the point of the exercise that the pastor is making...but you'd have to have one heck of a good reason to accuse this pastor of promoting gambling by giving random people a gift from the church. The difference between what this pastor is doing and a slot machine in the foyer is so strikingly different, just from a sociological standpoint...it literally makes no sense to compare them. Getting a gift from a slot machine is a far cry from having the Pastor of the church preach about Godly Financial choices, offering financial counseling, and then giving a gift to a random listener in order to help them on their way. Night and day on that one Brother... And since you are sooooo worried about the church giving money away in ways that YOU approve of...they have a food program, they have a homeless ministry...you know all the usual things that churches have. Seriously...this whole thing was nothing more than a great idea that was an illustration and a blessing to some folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxman Posted November 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,292 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2009 Axx.. I had a hard time with this initially - but yes, I think that this is something that this pastor was lead to do for his flock. I'd love to know more of the insight he had to doing this, which on the outset seems so ... wrong - yet is helping people. We have families come to our church each week when there is a potluck meal to be served - and there are so many more of them than there used to be - I'm convinced it's because they need the meal! The food bank we sponsor with several other churches was nearly devastated a few weeks ago - we prayed and talked to many in the community and our shelves are full once again!!! We are able to minister to many who need the food - they are coming to church now and are part of our church family - I feel a change in our whole community - people who were just 'there' are now standing up and being counted! They are helping the outreach ministries and getting involved with the families we help. It's an amazing and positive change - I feel the Holy Spirit at work. Hey Sis, I think the important thing for all of us to remember is that God uses us all differently. Just because God didn't tell one church to do something...doesn't mean that he won't tell another church to do it. I think its a mistake to fall into the mentality of judging other ministries simply because they do things differently. Again, I kinda come from a church that gets labled alot...heck my entire ministerial background I have been judged for the way we've done things. Some of the judgements being made here sound suspiciously familiar and its pretty sad. I think it shows alot that you are at least willing to look deeper into it and understand the motivations and insights of this pastors "gimmick." There is a short bio on the Pastorhere... Also...because of the way that some people word their comments in an attempt to slander their target...most people assume this is an on-going thing at this church. You will be happy to know that it was a 3-week series on financial responsibility and that the money was only given away during that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Believer1997 Posted November 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,363 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 9 Joined: 11/07/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2009 Axx.. I had a hard time with this initially - but yes, I think that this is something that this pastor was lead to do for his flock. I'd love to know more of the insight he had to doing this, which on the outset seems so ... wrong - yet is helping people. We have families come to our church each week when there is a potluck meal to be served - and there are so many more of them than there used to be - I'm convinced it's because they need the meal! The food bank we sponsor with several other churches was nearly devastated a few weeks ago - we prayed and talked to many in the community and our shelves are full once again!!! We are able to minister to many who need the food - they are coming to church now and are part of our church family - I feel a change in our whole community - people who were just 'there' are now standing up and being counted! They are helping the outreach ministries and getting involved with the families we help. It's an amazing and positive change - I feel the Holy Spirit at work. Hey Sis, I think the important thing for all of us to remember is that God uses us all differently. Just because God didn't tell one church to do something...doesn't mean that he won't tell another church to do it. I think its a mistake to fall into the mentality of judging other ministries simply because they do things differently. Again, I kinda come from a church that gets labled alot...heck my entire ministerial background I have been judged for the way we've done things. Some of the judgements being made here sound suspiciously familiar and its pretty sad. I think it shows alot that you are at least willing to look deeper into it and understand the motivations and insights of this pastors "gimmick." There is a short bio on the Pastorhere... Also...because of the way that some people word their comments in an attempt to slander their target...most people assume this is an on-going thing at this church. You will be happy to know that it was a 3-week series on financial responsibility and that the money was only given away during that time. Thanks Axx, I read about this minister and I think that given the fact that it was a short-term program and there were other teachings about financial responsibility - we just saw one glaring side of the "gimmick". That happens so much, when people immediately assume that something is wrong (just as I did) and jump on the bandwagon and start berating something that may actually be an opening to helping a struggling congregation. I enjoy your posts and hope you will continue to look at things from all sides - it's so easy to fall into judgmental 'piety' and only look at a narrow view of things that on the surface may seem wrong - but are not as bad as they seem at all. I wish this thread would just fade away now... there's been far too much ugliness between brothers and sisters in Christ over something that raised alarm unnecessarily, imo. Blessings to you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted November 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted November 16, 2009 Closed for Review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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