OneLight Posted November 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2009 Even when scripture plainly states that salvation comes solely through faith, you just don't see it. I don't know if it is pride or plain contention on your part that you continue to argue what is not there. The verses don't state that you have to love your brother as ourself either. Does that mean we should add that to salvation also? You are completely adding works to salvation, which in itself states that you do not believe that salvation is 100% completed through Jesus redemptive work. There is no contradiction – I only tell you the truth. Not one of the verses presented negates the command of Christ to believe and be baptized and then one shall be saved. Obeying God’s command is not a work of merit. One does not stand condemned before God when that person obeys God’s command from the heart. You remain very confused due to your secular bias. Not one of those verses mentions repentance but are you really prepared to say one “shall be saved” without repentance in light of the Lord’s words…I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:5 ASV)Let me help you here – the truth is both repentance and baptism come before “remission of sins”. This is the truth you cannot see or refute.Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38) You only tell me what you see as truth, and that is all. Just because you believe it dose not equate it as truth. A Christian does not add anything to scripture to appease their belief system. I go on what is there, not what is not there. The scripture I provided left out a lot of other commands because they are not part of salvation, but are a result of salvation, as in baptism. Jesus Himself tells us that redemption is through His blood and not baptism. You seem to have an elementary understanding of scripture, but your pride blinds you. If this was not about salvation, I would of washed my hands of your arrogance a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted November 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2009 Well as you have 'called me out' my chum I will answer you even though I believe it is feeding some need in you. No partner you made the accusation as my accuser that I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mark 16:16) The way a hebrew would understand what this jewish person said is, "He that has strong trust and is immersed into the reality of God shall be free from the penalty of sin" Any other interpretation misses the point. Lol - are you a Hebraic scholar? I have read many versions of the Bible and never seen your "immersed into the reality" notion. Are you sure that is what it means or is that what YOU want it to mean? That's the meaning of what He said. A hebrew to hebrews understands that there is no "hocus-pocus" in Yeshua. It doesn't take a scholar to know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted November 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2009 As correctly stated - your false accusation remains a false accusation and it was anticipated that you would refuse to acknowledge your error - such is the way of the world. Not at all....I am very happy to be judged biblically, I feel you are rather biased. Matt 18:15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebekahDavid Posted November 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 3,166 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 23 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/31/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2009 Realy I dont understand some of these questions. We should know that God is a mercifull God and knows all things and the hearts of men If for some reason a man is unable to be baptized then lets not think that God can understand. Also why wouldnt you want to be baptized after you are saved its biblical and it shows the church your devotion. No one is questioning whether or not a person should be baptized. No one is challenging the fact that God has commanded it. What we rightfully challenge is the notion that if a person fails, for whatever reason, to be baptized, such a person is still saved, is still a Christian and will go to heaven when they die, with or without baptism. What is being debated is the notion by some that salvation is conditional upon baptism. as shiloh pointed out many posts ago this is the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted November 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2009 You only tell me what you see as truth, and that is all. Just because you believe it dose not equate it as truth. A Christian does not add anything to scripture to appease their belief system. I add nothing – I only present the full council of God and that full council includes His command to be baptized into Christ for the remission of sins. This truth contradicts your bias so you refuse to acknowledge God’s revelation. Gods revelation of truth is seen in Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Romans 10:8-10 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Jesus Himself tells us that redemption is through His blood and not baptism. Straw-man – I have never said redemption is in baptism - that is only your straw-man. I have maintained the blood of Christ completely and finally saves those who obey from the heart the doctrine delivered. And the doctrine delivered includes baptism. No straw man here. I know that is what you are saying, and you are wrong to state that the doctrine delivered includes baptism. I am very surprised that with all your studies, you have not discovered that through His blood alone, we have redemption/salvation. Ephesians 1:7-10 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. First comes accepting Jesus as your savior -SALVATION Then comes baptism, treating your neighbor as yourself, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and poisoned, etc. - WORKS It is as simple and as clear as that. Adding baptism to salvation is false doctrine. The only faiths that I know believing in salvation that includes works doctrine are Roman Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. Are you one of these? Salvation is completed when one believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth that Jesus Christ died and rose again. There are many ways one can disobey God and still have forgiveness through repentance. These disobedience's are through works not being done. Yet, if you never have receive His salvation, no matter how many good works you do, you will not be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Realy I dont understand some of these questions. We should know that God is a mercifull God and knows all things and the hearts of men If for some reason a man is unable to be baptized then lets not think that God can understand. Also why wouldnt you want to be baptized after you are saved its biblical and it shows the church your devotion. No one is questioning whether or not a person should be baptized. No one is challenging the fact that God has commanded it. What we rightfully challenge is the notion that if a person fails, for whatever reason, to be baptized, such a person is still saved, is still a Christian and will go to heaven when they die, with or without baptism. What is being debated is the notion by some that salvation is conditional upon baptism. as shiloh pointed out many posts ago this is the issue. I have already answered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted November 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2009 If you really think I have falsely accused you then why not do what Jesus commands...you have nothing to fear, and it would also demonstrate that I am not walking in the way of the world over this whatever the outcome might be. Personally I think this is food and drink to you, and you want to play the offended party game now...well I'm calling your bluff. You have falsely accused me. I am offended that any Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted November 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2009 We are saved completely and finally by the blood of Christ You should end your argument here "We are saved completely and finally by the blood of Christ", as you stated, and stop adding works to salvation. I have asked you before (which you never answered) why you make this statement, then add works to salvation later. If you stick to your above statement, you are correct. When you add anything to your statement, you are wrong. Romans 6 is also talking about what happens throughout the life of a believer and not at the point of salvation. The very first sentence in chapter 6 is "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" He is clearly speaking to those who have been saved and this can be seen when he asks the question "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound". Paul is talking about the difference of living in sin and living for God, which happens after salvation, and continues to speak to the same through the whole chapter. Paul is using baptism to prove his point, not to state that baptism is an inclusion to salvation. What you continually fail to see is that nobody has ever said baptism is not important, it is. We all have been disputing your statement that baptism is required for salvation, as you continue to put forth, and that, as I have said before, is false teaching. I gave you a list of scripture that clearly states that salvation is by faith alone. What was your response? You repeated one statement: "I am in complete agreement with this passage and it nowhere negates the command of Jesus to be immersed in water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted November 22, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 22, 2009 If you really think I have falsely accused you then why not do what Jesus commands...you have nothing to fear, and it would also demonstrate that I am not walking in the way of the world over this whatever the outcome might be. Personally I think this is food and drink to you, and you want to play the offended party game now...well I'm calling your bluff. You have falsely accused me. I am offended that any Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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