The stickiest wicket of 'em all

[EricH]

The Bible's remarks about sovereignty NEVER extend to who is or is not chosen to be saved.

In light of your opinion above, help me understand this:

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed. (Act 13:48 CSB)

[EricH]

This passage may create a slight issue for this interpretation:

So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.

Romans 9:18 HCSB

That does not change the fact that Pharoah had already hardened His heart before God gave him over to his own hardness.

However, Paul tells us that God raised Pharaoh up for this purpose. So God is still the initiator

[Guest shiloh357]

The Bible's remarks about sovereignty NEVER extend to who is or is not chosen to be saved.

In light of your opinion above, help me understand this:

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed. (Act 13:48 CSB)

Which helps your position.... how? Appointed does not mean "pre-ordained." God appoints to eternal life those who believe. The verse does NOT say, "Those who were appointed to believe received eternal life."

This passage may create a slight issue for this interpretation:

So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.

Romans 9:18 HCSB

That does not change the fact that Pharoah had already hardened His heart before God gave him over to his own hardness.

However, Paul tells us that God raised Pharaoh up for this purpose. So God is still the initiator

Yes,but that is still a far cry from saying that Pharoah was forced to disobey. What the Bible does NOT say is that God ordained Pharoah's initial rebellion. God gave over Pharoah over to his stubborn hardness and this incited Pharoah even more culminating in Pharoah's final act of rebellion at the Red Sea.

The mercy spoken of in 9:18 above in your quote is the mercy God gives the unrepentant before He gives them over to their sin. It is a different type of mercy than what God offers to the vessels of mercy mentioned later in 9:23.

[Miss Elly]

Just where does evil come from? Man has asked this question down through the ages? Does the Scripture give an answer? I think it does. It may not be one to our liking.

God created evil. (Isaiah 45:7)

I asked myself the same question: how is that possible, since God doesn't sin and is incapable of evil? After serious thought, it came to me. God created evil as a PRINCIPLE, IDEA or CONCEPT. Christ created all things. Creating the 'ra' or principle/concept/idea of evil does not make God evil or sinful, it merely establishes that evil exists in the scheme of the cosmos.

Why would God create such a principle? To show its inferiority to righteousness and holiness.

There is no other way that evil could have come into existence.

I look at evil like an egg. The egg is harmless...until someone breaks it. So as long as evil was unreleased in the cosmos...no big deal. God wouldn't 'break the egg' so to speak, He couldn't because HE is Ultimate Holiness and incapable of sin and evil.

Enter Satan. The Adversary, literally, the one who withstands. Obviously like all beings, Satan is a creation. He is not the equal of God in the evil sense.

Ezekiel says of him that he was perfect (upright, blameless) UNTIL evil was discovered (Heb: matsa, found or encountered) in him. How in the world did evil get in him in the first place? The only logical answer: It was placed there for a reason, and that reason is to serve the ultimate purpose of God.

Naturally the next question on everyone's mind is: Do you mean to tell me that God created Satan with evil in him? YES. And that of course begs the question WHY? To serve His ultimate purpose, to show mankind his love by sending His very Word in human form to die for us.

To those who ask could God morally do this, the answer is found in Romans 9. and the example of the potter and the clay. The clay is God's to use for any purpose He so desires. He can make an elegant dinner plate or a commode and neither of the two can say "Why did you make me this way,"

I disagree - If evil is rebellion - such as was found in Lucifer's heart, then God did not create that because he is righteous and there is no evil found in God. Satan had a freewill choice and he chose the wrong way. I don't believe God put the evil in satan's heart, that does not make sense to me at all. The evil that the scripture in Isaiah is referring to is that God can and will punish evildoers with judgments. Also, the reference about the potter doesn't have to be a bad thing. God's laws of genetics enter into play, some children may be beautiful (like Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt), others a plain Janes and John Does. So it does no good to complain to God about how you were formed. God allows things and he exercises judgement upon all.

[Miss Elly]

Yes they do. Isaiah 45:7 tells us exactly where evil came from. God created its principle. We as Believers don't want to look at it. Evil is embodied in Satan the adversary first and foremost.

This is difficult subject in some ways......Satan was not created evil, he used to sing and praise God. He chose evil and God found it in him.

[kross]

People will blame GOD for what they want. That is no reason not to teach the truth.

Hyper-sovereignty is not "the truth." It is not biblical at all. It is an overstatement of what the Bible says about God's sovereignty.

I do not believe you can over state GODs soveriegnty any more than I believe you can trust JESUS too much. But, you do tend to read a completely different message in the Bible than I do. It makes for interesting discussions.

[kross]

Yes they do. Isaiah 45:7 tells us exactly where evil came from. God created its principle. We as Believers don't want to look at it. Evil is embodied in Satan the adversary first and foremost.

This is difficult subject in some ways......Satan was not created evil, he used to sing and praise God. He chose evil and God found it in him.

This really not a difficault subject if you believe GOD designed Satan with a complete knowledge of who and what he was and would be. It is only difficult when you do not want to extend the soveriegnty of GOD to include that the outcome of HIS design and creation is exactly what HE intended it to be.

Then it gets difficult.

[kross]

This passage may create a slight issue for this interpretation:

So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.

Romans 9:18 HCSB

That does not change the fact that Pharoah had already hardened His heart before God gave him over to his own hardness.

However, Paul tells us that God raised Pharaoh up for this purpose. So God is still the initiator

Eric,

We all know GOD hardened Pharoah's heart, we all now that HE makes one vessel for honor and one for dis-honor, and we all know the Bible is very clear that GOD will have mercy on whom HE chooses and whom HE chooses HE hardens. Still, there are some who make that say the exact opposite of what it says.

GOD bess you during this conversation.

IF you carry it long enough, you will find the flaws in the logic. My conversations on this topic, Romans 9, have proven to me that I understand it very well

[Guest shiloh357]

People will blame GOD for what they want. That is no reason not to teach the truth.

Hyper-sovereignty is not "the truth." It is not biblical at all. It is an overstatement of what the Bible says about God's sovereignty.

I do not believe you can over state GODs soveriegnty any more than I believe you can trust JESUS too much. But, you do tend to read a completely different message in the Bible than I do. It makes for interesting discussions.

Yes sovereignty can be overstated. God is in overall control of the world and the affairs of men. What the Bible nowhere says is that God controls and intends every action and every thought of every person.

The Bible NEVER presents acts of rape, murder, incest, abuse, robbery, etc. as intended by God. The Bible never presents sin as intended by God.

Your overstatement is that nothing happens unless God intends it to happen, but the Bible does not teach that. Your position falls outside the purview of Scripture. The Bible presents God's sovereignty in a much different light. God's plans cannot be thwarted by anything man does, but that does not mean that God controls every deed that occurs on the planet, and you have absolutely nothing from Scripture that presents God's sovereignty as you present it.

The Bible demonstrates that God allows things to happen that go against His perfect will.

[EricH]

The Bible's remarks about sovereignty NEVER extend to who is or is not chosen to be saved.

In light of your opinion above, help me understand this:

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed. (Act 13:48 CSB)

Which helps your position.... how? Appointed does not mean "pre-ordained." God appoints to eternal life those who believe. The verse does NOT say, "Those who were appointed to believe received eternal life."

The passage seems to be saying the opposite of what you contend above. You are saying that believing was the condition for the appointing. However the grammar of the passage indicates that the appointing was the condition for the believing. So it does actually say that the belief came to be because it was appointed. I understand that you don't believe it. You have said that several times. What I am trying to understand is why you don't believe it. When passages have been raised by folks that seem to mitigate against the position you are articulating, you say clearly it does not mean what they say it does. But I have not seen a clear explanationwhy those passages can "never" mean what they seem to clearly state.