kross Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 Since I believe evil and the fall was part of the plan for the Earth, and that nothing happens outside of GOD's will, I have no problem with the idea that GOD can create heaven without sin or evil. I believe GOD could have created the earth without sin or evil, and kept evil out. It just wasn't HIS intention to do so. Your position is based on the assumption that nothing happens unless God intends for it to happen. The problem is that you have to step outside Scripture to make that argument. The Bible does not say that, so your assumption is not based on biblical fact from the get-go. You are relying on your assumption and trying to interpret the Scripture to fit your assumption. You do not have a biblical grasp on God's sovereignty and you are relying on an unbiblical assumption. The Bible says that nothing happens outside God's knowledge and permission. It does not say that everything happens because God intends. The Bible does not even say that God intended man to fall. All we know from Scripture is that God permitted what He knew would happen and that He already had a plan in place to redeem man from the fall. You have NO biblical grounds for claiming that God intended the world to be in the condition it is in. Actually, the Bible is very clear that it was GOD who put all of the ingredients together with a full knowledge of what would happen as a result. If the result wasnt the plan, HE would have put some other ingredients in or left some out. The real question here is, if GOD didn't intend sin and evil to be in this creation, then how can you be sure HE is able to keep it out of the next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 why am i even doing this? God doesn't make mistakes. about that, kross is right. but PEOPLE do make mistakes, and PEOPLE sin against God and grieve the Holy Spirit all the time. God knows full well that it is human nature to sin, and knows before hand exactly what we are going to do, even when we screw up. that does not mean it is God's WILL that we screw up. and yes, God's plan, (as in His perfect will) can be thwarted by human error. but that's ok because God knows beforehand that it will happen, and His ULTIMATE will will be done. ultimately, everything will be worked out according to His plan and purpose. that is the sovereignty of God. but the details along the way are often not the way God would have preferred it to happen. This particular post is about the before. If GOD didn't intend sin and evil in this world, how can you be sure HE will be able to keep it out of the next one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 Satan, the originator and cause of evil, will be in solitary for a thousand years, so we will have peace for that long with him out of the way. Then after the thousand years, satan will be cast into the lake of fire. Rev. chap 19,20 So you agree that Satan as created for this? That he wasn't intended to be something else and changed? Because if that is what you are saying, than I agree with you. GOD created Satan to be what Satan is, thus not creating another one after he is tanked will result in a lack of sin and evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2009 Some folk blame all of the evil that is in creation as having been a result of freewill choices. Satan made a freewill choice adn GOD didn't intend Satan to be what he is. If Satan, one of the angels who was always in the presence of GOD, was able to choose to rebel against GOD without it being something GOD intended, then how will HE keep rebelion from happening in heaven again? Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? of coarse God expected a rebellion to occur before He created the angels. Yes, God knew that free-will will run its coarse. God's character would of destroyed all those rebelling angels but they were not destroyed. "Why not" is what you should be asking. It seems as though a price was already paid or "something" was holding Him back. I think the something holding HIM back is HIS plan and purpose for making them. His plan cannot hold something back. If that were true then His Godly attributes are flawed. The moment one goes against a single word of God then a price has to be paid. His attributes would demand judgement. A plan cannot pass off as righteousness. If that were true then Christ should of not died and accepting a "plan" would of been suffice. Except we know that the plan was for CHRIST to die. The LAMB slain from the foundations of the world. you just answered your own point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 Since I believe evil and the fall was part of the plan for the Earth, and that nothing happens outside of GOD's will, I have no problem with the idea that GOD can create heaven without sin or evil. I believe GOD could have created the earth without sin or evil, and kept evil out. It just wasn't HIS intention to do so. Your position is based on the assumption that nothing happens unless God intends for it to happen. The problem is that you have to step outside Scripture to make that argument. The Bible does not say that, so your assumption is not based on biblical fact from the get-go. You are relying on your assumption and trying to interpret the Scripture to fit your assumption. You do not have a biblical grasp on God's sovereignty and you are relying on an unbiblical assumption. The Bible says that nothing happens outside God's knowledge and permission. It does not say that everything happens because God intends. The Bible does not even say that God intended man to fall. All we know from Scripture is that God permitted what He knew would happen and that He already had a plan in place to redeem man from the fall. You have NO biblical grounds for claiming that God intended the world to be in the condition it is in. while i agree with what you say Shiloh, would you supply scriptures for us for your last paragraph, esp the first sentance, thanks. just wanted to say thanks shiloh, that's exactly what i've been trying to say for two (three?) days now... you said it much better than i did, and i hope that kross's eyes will be opened because of it. Equally, the rejection of the idea that GOD created Satan, and the earth, and put all of the ingredients together with full knowledge of what would transpire doesn't indicate that what HE intended to happen is what did happen, IS an assumption. The assumption that GOD didn't intend the fall is equally unvalid as the assumption that HE did. Perhaps more invalid, since scripture points us to the fact that HE not only knew what the outcome of HIS design would be, as a direct result of how HE designed it, but it also points to the fact that the entire point of creation is to glorify HIS son, the LAMB that was destined to be slain before any sin was committed. Whle it is always just bad conversation to say one person's assumption is wrong because it disagrees with another persons assumption, that is stilll not the cruxt of the question of the thread. If GOD didn't intend for sin to be in this world, which was brought about be evil that was in a created being we call Satan, if GOD didn't intend Satan to be what HE is, then HOW CAN YOU HAVE FAITH THAT GOD CAN MAKE THE NEXT CREATION WITHOUT SIN AND DEATH? If angels will still have free will, then one can choose to lead a rebellion. Your arguement is like saying that if a person mixes all the ingredients for a cake and puts it is the oven and it comes out a cake, that was not their intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 A conversation was started in another thread that I cnnot find now. Thr basic statement was that we will have freewill in heaven. Which I agree with. Here is the question; Some folk blame all of the evil that is in creation as having been a result of freewill choices. Satan made a freewill choice adn GOD didn't intend Satan to be what he is. If Satan, one of the angels who was always in the presence of GOD, was able to choose to rebel against GOD without it being something GOD intended, then how will HE keep rebelion from happening in heaven again? Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? Since I believe evil and the fall was part of the plan for the Earth, and that nothing happens outside of GOD's will, I have no problem with the idea that GOD can create heaven without sin or evil. I believe GOD could have created the earth without sin or evil, and kept evil out. It just wasn't HIS intention to do so. So, there is the question; If HE intended this earth to be perfect and without evil, and it went astray, what is to keep the new earth from going astray? God makes no mistakes. Frankly kross, I'm surprised that you would make such a statement. Are you not feeling well? Or is the real kross coming out? I have clearly stated that I believe GOD intended this world to be exactly what it is. The question is for those who believe that this creation is not what GOD intended it to be. And for those who believe GOD didnt create Satan to be what he is. I read very well, my friend (you really should note when you go back and change a posting). You need to be more clear if you don't mean what you say because you did say "Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern?" If it was a rhetorical/sarcastic question, you should say so or leave some type of clue. It's a non-issue, though, for me. I now know what you meant. I guess I assume when people see IF at the beginning of a statement that they will then link the question with the IF. My bad. I have not gone back and editted any posts one they have been addressed by anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 A conversation was started in another thread that I cnnot find now. Thr basic statement was that we will have freewill in heaven. Which I agree with. Here is the question; Some folk blame all of the evil that is in creation as having been a result of freewill choices. Satan made a freewill choice adn GOD didn't intend Satan to be what he is. If Satan, one of the angels who was always in the presence of GOD, was able to choose to rebel against GOD without it being something GOD intended, then how will HE keep rebelion from happening in heaven again? Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? Since I believe evil and the fall was part of the plan for the Earth, and that nothing happens outside of GOD's will, I have no problem with the idea that GOD can create heaven without sin or evil. I believe GOD could have created the earth without sin or evil, and kept evil out. It just wasn't HIS intention to do so. So, there is the question; If HE intended this earth to be perfect and without evil, and it went astray, what is to keep the new earth from going astray? Earth is a place deeply influenced by Satan and his death force. If people can 'survive' this by faith and choose to be with God in this environment, they will no longer rebel when in heaven where Satan's force will be absent. I am answerring many different people who have said about the same thing. So, this is redundant. That is absolutely true. No disagreement at all. There will be no sin or evil in heaven or the new earth because there will be no Satan and a different sinless flesh. I believe GOD can create this place. There are those who say GOD didn't create Satan.GOD created an angel that made a freewill choice that GOD had no intention of happening. IF this is so, which I do not believe, then what is to keep another angel from doing the same thing, or a person, in the next heaven? Based on GOD's track record to date, what faith can you have in HIS ability to created a sinless environment where there is no evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 Some folk blame all of the evil that is in creation as having been a result of freewill choices. Satan made a freewill choice adn GOD didn't intend Satan to be what he is. If Satan, one of the angels who was always in the presence of GOD, was able to choose to rebel against GOD without it being something GOD intended, then how will HE keep rebelion from happening in heaven again? Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern? of coarse God expected a rebellion to occur before He created the angels. Yes, God knew that free-will will run its coarse. God's character would of destroyed all those rebelling angels but they were not destroyed. "Why not" is what you should be asking. It seems as though a price was already paid or "something" was holding Him back. I think the something holding HIM back is HIS plan and purpose for making them. His plan cannot hold something back. If that were true then His Godly attributes are flawed. The moment one goes against a single word of God then a price has to be paid. His attributes would demand judgement. A plan cannot pass off as righteousness. If that were true then Christ should of not died and accepting a "plan" would of been suffice. Except we know that the plan was for CHRIST to die. The LAMB slain from the foundations of the world. you just answered your own point. That has been my point all along. Sin and evill were intended in this world as part of the plan, which was for CHRIST to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2009 you just answered your own point. That has been my point all along. Sin and evill were intended in this world as part of the plan, which was for CHRIST to die. i would say it was expected rather than intended. Intended kinda implies that God wanted it. Expected implies that God knew free-will may cause creation to choose against Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kross Posted December 9, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 44 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,773 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/27/1957 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 you just answered your own point. That has been my point all along. Sin and evill were intended in this world as part of the plan, which was for CHRIST to die. i would say it was expected rather than intended. Intended kinda implies that God wanted it. Expected implies that God knew free-will may cause creation to choose against Him. I believe GOd most certainly wanted it. Otherwise, what is creation for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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