mizzdy Posted January 5, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 5, 2010 Lekh L'kha wrote: "all the nations is from the Hebrew words kol am, which means "people/tribe/flock". It's not Jesus talking here - it's the antichrist. The covenants (plural) Jesus made with Israel cannot be broken - because the Abrahamic Covenant is an everlasting covenant of grace which depends alone upon God for its fulfillment, and the Mosaic Covenant which came 430 years later was broken by the people - not by God: Not trying to derail this thread but how do you get that the antichrist is talking here in Zech. 11? Zechariah seems to be taking on the voice of the Messiah which is what its all about, that 'yes they will reject me but My wish was for Judah and Israel to be united in My grace' kinda thinking and since that will not happen till His second coming and that He will raise some up to become the worthless shepard. Sorry not trying to derail the thread just curious how you came up with this chpt. being the ac? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 The believing Gentiles whose hearts and minds are blinded to the first aspect of the Messiah's salvation of Israel have followed the false theology of their religious leaders, just as the Jews who believed the first aspect but would not believe the second aspect of the Messiah's salvation of Israel followed the false theology of their religious leaders. For some reason the following scripture seems to be ignored...by jews..and people standing with Israel This is Jesus Almighty God...talking to the Jews of Israel. Zechariah 11 The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD. 12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. 14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. 15 Then the LORD said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs. 17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!" The Jewish Covenant is revoked. The Jews have one thing to look forward too. The foolish shepard who will denounce Jesus Christ and set up temples dedicated to satan. Start sacrificing again. All the things the jews want to hear. Back to bondage. After this you will see Jesus Christ, King o Kings. Lord of Lords. Destroying the foolish shephard (Anti Christ) and all his followers, including many jews. I am always amazed at those who condemn Israel and the Jews with passages like this one. They act as if this is final word on the issue. What people like Press Foward fail to do is read further into the prophecy. Zechariah promises a future restoration of Israel. In chapter 12, we read a prophetic description of Israel that has never existed, post-Zechariah, until today. Zechariah tells us of an Israel which is victorious over all of its enemies. Zechariah sees it as reminiscient of the days when the Angel of the Lord went before them in battle. Zechariah, in the same prophecy, tells us that it is this (modern) Israel that will one day look upon their Messiah and weep for Him. All throughout the OT, we have many prophecies of Israel's future restoration which is happening even now. Zechariah also gives us the word of the Lord which states that Israel is the apple of His eye and that He will stand as a wall of fire round about her. Christians may have rejected Israel, but God has not. Some arrogant Christians have written the Jews off, but God has not, and He has promised in Jer. 31:35,36 that as long as the sun and moon are in the sky, He will not cast off the Israel as His nation. God has commanded us to love Israel unconditionally, and those who stand against Israel, stand against God. The modern state of Israel is a direct fulfillment of God's promises and a testimony of His faithfulness to His Word. Israel is His nation and they have an eternal covenant with God (Gen. 17:8,9). The enemies of Israel are the enemies of God. You either stand with Israel or you stand against the Lord. Jesus is still a Jew and He is a Zionist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted January 5, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 5, 2010 The believing Gentiles whose hearts and minds are blinded to the first aspect of the Messiah's salvation of Israel have followed the false theology of their religious leaders, just as the Jews who believed the first aspect but would not believe the second aspect of the Messiah's salvation of Israel followed the false theology of their religious leaders. For some reason the following scripture seems to be ignored...by jews..and people standing with Israel This is Jesus Almighty God...talking to the Jews of Israel. Zechariah 11 The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD. 12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. 14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. 15 Then the LORD said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs. 17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!" The Jewish Covenant is revoked. The Jews have one thing to look forward too. The foolish shepard who will denounce Jesus Christ and set up temples dedicated to satan. Start sacrificing again. All the things the jews want to hear. Back to bondage. After this you will see Jesus Christ, King o Kings. Lord of Lords. Destroying the foolish shephard (Anti Christ) and all his followers, including many jews. When I read this chpt I see Zechariah speaking in the voice of the future Messiah saying how He wished that they would know Him when He comes to unite Judah and Israel once again into a nation, how He wished that they would unite them under His grace once again to have all His children back under His protection but they will refuse to either believe or follow His ways when He comes as their Messiah. When those Israelites, Judah and Israel, refuse to believe in their Messiah He allows to go into apostate, given over to a false and foolish shepard to continue in their unbelief until the time of restoration is taking place. God did not break His word to them, to us, He allows us all to choose to believe, to want to walk in His ways and with those He writes His laws and commandments on our hearts, that to me is the crux of the newer covenant just as Moses foretold all those years ago. The covenant is always with Israel doesn't matter if their eyes are blinded the option of having them opened is always available and today we see more and more coming to the knowledge that Yeshua is and was indeed the Messiah of Israel. But God will never while the earth is still here throw away His own and boy are we glad us gentiles have been given the way to be grafted into His family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted January 6, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted January 6, 2010 ** OK, I need to go back to the OP and comment on my first thought ** From the title: "Why didn't the Jews believe the Jews? Jesus, John the Baptist, even Peter, Paul, and Mary... " I believe they missed that "the answer is blowing in the wind" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lekh l'kha Posted January 6, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 830 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted January 6, 2010 Zechariah 11 The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD. 12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. 14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. 15 Then the LORD said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs. 17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!" When I read this chpt I see Zechariah speaking in the voice of the future Messiah saying how He wished that they would know Him when He comes to unite Judah and Israel once again into a nation, how He wished that they would unite them under His grace once again to have all His children back under His protection but they will refuse to either believe or follow His ways when He comes as their Messiah. When those Israelites, Judah and Israel, refuse to believe in their Messiah He allows to go into apostate, given over to a false and foolish shepard to continue in their unbelief until the time of restoration is taking place. God did not break His word to them, to us, He allows us all to choose to believe, to want to walk in His ways and with those He writes His laws and commandments on our hearts, that to me is the crux of the newer covenant just as Moses foretold all those years ago. The covenant is always with Israel doesn't matter if their eyes are blinded the option of having them opened is always available and today we see more and more coming to the knowledge that Yeshua is and was indeed the Messiah of Israel. But God will never while the earth is still here throw away His own and boy are we glad us gentiles have been given the way to be grafted into His family. You may be right, I don't have a monopoly on correct interpretation of every verse in the Bible, but it's not the way I see it, because it's clearly not the Messiah doing the talking when he says, "And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD." (Zec 11:12-13) "And he threw the pieces of silver down in the temple and departed. And he went and hanged himself." (Mat 27:5). Also, he says, "Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me." (Zec 11:8) "And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows." (Dan 7:20) "And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces." (Zec 11:15-16) I can't see that the Messiah and Judas Iscariot/antichrist are all speaking in the same passage. But I could be wrong. But that doesn't matter, because the fact is that this passage cannot be used to blasphemously claim that God has broken ANY covenant He made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Not only does God NOT break His covenants, but a study of ALL God's covenants shows that He has not broken any of them. The words of the New Covenant show clearly that the Mosaic Covenant was rendered ineffective because it was broken by the people - not by God (Jer.31: 31-32). It's actually blasphemous to assert that God is a breaker of any covenant He made with Israel/Judah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lekh l'kha Posted January 6, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 830 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted January 6, 2010 ** OK, I need to go back to the OP and comment on my first thought ** From the title: "Why didn't the Jews believe the Jews? Jesus, John the Baptist, even Peter, Paul, and Mary... " I believe they missed that "the answer is blowing in the wind" BINGO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted January 6, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 6, 2010 Lekh L'kha wrote: I can't see that the Messiah and Judas Iscariot/antichrist are all speaking in the same passage. But I could be wrong. But that doesn't matter, because the fact is that this passage cannot be used to blasphemously claim that God has broken ANY covenant He made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Not only does God NOT break His covenants, but a study of ALL God's covenants shows that He has not broken any of them. The words of the New Covenant show clearly that the Mosaic Covenant was rendered ineffective because it was broken by the people - not by God (Jer.31: 31-32). It's actually blasphemous to assert that God is a breaker of any covenant He made with Israel/Judah. The passages seem to be the narrative from Zachariah himself thats how I read it. Your right you cannot see within these passages that God broke anything and as Shiloh pointed out the next chpt is the deliverance of Judah, when their eyes are finally opened to the Messiah. The book ends with all nations worshipping the King of Kings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lekh l'kha Posted January 6, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 27 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 830 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted January 6, 2010 The passages seem to be the narrative from Zachariah himself thats how I read it. Your right you cannot see within these passages that God broke anything and as Shiloh pointed out the next chpt is the deliverance of Judah, when their eyes are finally opened to the Messiah. The book ends with all nations worshipping the King of Kings! Marantha! I have my own misunderstandings of God's Word and own faults and I don't want to be judgmentally accusative Press Forward, but really Press Forward, I hope you can see that the words themselves of Christians can indict and convict Christians of having a prejudice about the Jews - notice I never said a prejudice against the Jews, but a prejudice about the Jews. And it's words like: 1. "If I was there I would have/wouldn't have...." 2. "God has revoked 'the Jewish Covenant'". (instead of naming the covenants of God for what they are: THe Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic and New Covenats which were ALL made with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" and which any Gentiles who have ever converted to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have been able to share 3. "Why didn't the Jews believe the Jews?" It's words like that which indict and convict many Christians of having a prejudice about the Jews, and a prejudice against or about the Jews is aka antisemitism, no matter how you try to sugar-coat it or deny it. The only question is, did a prejudice about the Jews lead to the false Christian theology aka Replacement Theology (or "Covenantal Theology" as the Replacement Theologists call it), or did Replacement Theology lead to prejudice about the Jews? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts