THE PROPHETIC MOVEMENT FAILING GOD??

[nebula]

It ain't a "trial & error" kinda job.

2 Samuel 7

1 After the king was settled in his palace and the LORD had given him rest from all his enemies around him, 2 he said to Nathan the prophet, "Here I am, living in a palace of cedar, while the ark of God remains in a tent."

3 Nathan replied to the king, "Whatever you have in mind, go ahead and do it, for the LORD is with you."

4 That night the word of the LORD came to Nathan, saying:

5 "Go and tell my servant David, 'This is what the LORD says: Are you the one to build me a house to dwell in? . . . .

Well, Nathan told David the wrong thing first. . . .

[Guest yod]

Well there are limits to "whatever you want" for anyone, Nebby girl :il:

That was a rhetorical question about God living in a house. God was asking David if ANYONE could build a house to hold him...then just 7 verses later he speaks about the Solomon building the Temple.

12 " When your days (David) are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 " He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

14 "I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men,

[Scudbuddy]

scuddybuddy,

I must disagree. There is no room for error when someone speaks for God. None whatsoever.

If someone is being "schooled" to be a prophet, they better be quiet until they've heard the Lord tell them to talk.

Or they are a false prophet.

It ain't a "trial & error" kinda job.

If we took your method of teaching a gift toward other things, it would be like asking someone to learn how to drive without using a vehicle.

How about we do the gift like this?

"Sir, I am trying to discern the gift of prophecy and so where I am wrong, please let me know. I believe the Lord is telling me that when you were 8 years old, you were hit by a car, and your leg was broken. You now have a limp and also real fear of crossing the street."

Then the person who it is for responds, "You are correct about being hit by a car and having my leg broken, but I do not fear crossing the street. I just fear being around busy traffic."

What then happens is the budding prophet can analyze what just happened, and how he was listening to God and make adjustments. And at the same time, he has avoided making his prophecy a "make or break" situation. He can learn from being corrected, and maybe fine-tune his gift because of it.

But this is what instead happens because of the pressure of being right.

"This is what the Lord says, you broke your leg as a child and have lived with the spirit of fear ever since. Thus saith the Lord, When shall you get over it. Am I not the God who delivereth thee."

And the person hearing it, hears the good part and is probaly overcome with "Wow God is speaking to me", only to be confused by the bad part that makes him look like a self-pitieous coward who needs "To get over it!" And because Prophets tend to operate in a bully like attitude, the person gets away with it, and the victim goes home confused, angry and wondering if the gift is correct.

The other way allows for correction, growth and healing. It gives the victim a chance to deal with an issue while also being allowed to correct any mistakes made.

My way allows for the gift to mature.

The other way either stifles the gift or corrupts it.

This is why the gift should be taught in an enviornment of learning. So we can keep this sort of junk from happening. And still have the gift for the church to enjoy.

[Guest yod]

The other way either stifles the gift or corrupts it.

a gift is given...not learned.

I am the God that makes mistakes???

[Scudbuddy]

SCUDBUDDY:

Hello again -we meet on this post - greetings in the Lord -

That isa pretty impassioned argument in support of the Prophetic Gift,

I also wonder why the Prophetic Gift has to be 100% on all the time.

However the Bible does tell us that the authenticity of the Prophet will be 'proven' by the accuracy of his word.

Besides I think we make too much of the 'prophetic' thing in the Pentecostal churches. I really do.

Everyone wants to be 'hearing from the Lord."

Sometimes I find its too much, you know . . .

Beside, what doesit merit me . . to get a word of prophecy . ..

Paul said the GREATER GIFT IS LOVE.

The incident ANOTHER TRAVELLER relates @ the young prophet is a case in point

What do you think had greater eternal value - his prophecy or his ministry to the 'fallen' pastor?

You are correct about the great gift of mercy being more important than the gift of prophecy. But that does not negate the gift of prophecy. It just accents it. Gives it flavor.

Here is what the church has done. They have stifled the gift of prophecy because they do not know how to teach it properly. Since they are under the assumption it is the gift you must be perfect in, and nobody is perfect, they just stifle it. So the prophets are at war with the pastors and vice-versa. And neither side is approaching the gift properly.

You see, many prophets are also under the bad teachings concerning this gift, and because they have been right so many times, when someone says they are wrong, the prophet thinks that person is in denial or a liar. "How can I be wrong when I have given such outstanding words that changed so many other peoples lives."

Sachi, I have given words that have stunned whole congregations out of their bad behavior. I have given words that so moved the crowds, that my daughter 2,000 miles away called me to tell me that she heard about the word given the day it was given. I have given words that have exposed sin in the pulpit, and caused the pastor to leave the ministry because of his perversions.

And I learned to do that in an enviornment of schooling. But before that "schooling", it was hit and miss. Sometimes my flesh would get involved in the word. I would tell some couple that they were to get married, because God had told me so. (25 years ago, and this sort of thing had been modeled in front of me so many times. God knows how I have repented of such things. And I thank God that the women had enough sense to run from that man who turned out to be wicked.)

A School of learning gets rid of such antics by well meaning people like me. And I challenge anyone to call for my stoning. Jesus will draw in the sand for me the names of your sins and mistakes.

[Scudbuddy]

The other way either stifles the gift or corrupts it.

a gift is given...not learned.

I am the God that makes mistakes???

God doesn't make mistakes. We do. Unless of course you are different. May I ask you this. If you believe that a person is a false prophet because they blow it, are you willing to throw the first stone?

[AnotherTraveler]

The following is the word Greek word plastos, and the defination

4112. plastos, plas-tos'; from G4111; moulded, i.e. (by impl.) artificial or (fig.) fictitious (false):--feigned

(2 Pet 1:19 KJV) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

(2 Pet 1:20 KJV) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

(2 Pet 1:21 KJV) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

(2 Pet 2:1 KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

(2 Pet 2:2 KJV) And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

(2 Pet 2:3 KJV) And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

"false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,"

Fictitious, artificial, false. This is pretty clear,and we see teachers held in the same verse to the same standard. Ever taught something wrong?

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy"

If Peter and the rest of "we" had a more sure word, doesn't it stand that there are less sure words?

(1 Cor 14:28 KJV) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

(1 Cor 14:29 KJV) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

(1 Cor 14:30 KJV) If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

(1 Cor 14:31 KJV) For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

(1 Cor 14:32 KJV) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

(1 Cor 14:33 KJV) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

"For God is not the author of confusion" Who is speaking these scriptures? God

" in the church" Where are these instructions to be applied? God still speaking

" Let the prophets speak two or three" Where are they speaking? In the church!

(Oh my, now they are coming in handfuls!)

"For ye may all prophesy one by one" You mean even nonprophets can prophesy?

I find it strange that those that hold firm to the scriptural text as being complete and without error (and I also am one of these) have no problem eliminating certain uncomfortable parts (however I am not one of these).

These are new testament instructions given by GOD for how church should be conducted, how dare anyone snip this away by personal bias amd tradition?

For those that like to make prophesy into preach, teach, or any other word, here are the word definations. God used different words because these are different, as in not the same.

4395. propheteuo, prof-ate-yoo'-o; from G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.

1321. didasko, did-as'-ko; a prol. (caus.) form of a prim. verb dao (to learn); to teach (in the same broad application):--teach.

3870. parakaleo, par-ak-al-eh'-o; from G3844 and G2564; to call near, i.e. invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation):--beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort (-ation), intreat, pray.;--exhort

2784. kerusso, kay-roos'-so; of uncert. affin.; to herald (as a public crier), espec. divine truth (the gospel):--preach (-er), proclaim, publish. ;--preach

To anyone that wants to snip out of their bibles scriptures, I recommend don't. To anyone that that wants to eliminate church ministeries like prophet, I recommend don't. Jesus is building what He has been given from the Father, and who are we to start yanking out foundation stones?

(Eph 2:19 KJV) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

(Eph 2:20 KJV) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

(Eph 2:21 KJV) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

(Eph 2:22 KJV) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

(Eph 3:1 KJV) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

(Eph 3:2 KJV) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

(Eph 3:3 KJV) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

(Eph 3:4 KJV) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

(Eph 3:5 KJV) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

(Eph 3:6 KJV) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

(Eph 3:7 KJV) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

"is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" This is speakingof new testaments prophets, is now revealed. There is a GREAT NEED for the prophets, for they will not allow corruption of the ministry!

Consider a pastor tempted by lust begins to ingage in porn, and God sends a prophet to the pastor to remind him of the great cloud of witnesses and that everything is seen by the Lord Jesus, the pastor repents.

Without the prophet doing HIS job (like a cleaner fish in a fishtank) the pastor gets in deeper and deeper and then is in adultry, the family is divorced, the ministry is destroyed, and many are hurt in the fall of the pastor. This is happening worldwide, and we need prophets to be in place in the local church, it is for the sake of the overall health and growth of the body.

If you hate this, please pray about it, and search your bible.

(Amos 3:7 KJV) Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

[sachi]

Consider a pastor tempted by lust begins to ingage in porn, and God sends a prophet to the pastor to remind him of the great cloud of witnesses and that everything is seen by the Lord Jesus, the pastor repents.

That's a good point underscoring the importance of the ministry.

However, the Lord could have convicted the pastor in other ways as well - nevertheless, yes that is valid..

I personally believe in the full ministry of the gifts within the body, including prophesy.

But I use caution around it.

I have witnessed those who have the gift be wrong in a word they have spoken to believers - and it sends shock waves through the body of believers particularly when the word is given in a public way.

I think gifts are given and they need to be exercised . It is in the exercising of the gift they are perfected. So I do believe there needs to be spiritual mentoring in some of the gifts.

Edited September 18, 2004 by sachi

[Scudbuddy]

The following is the word Greek word plastos, and the defination

4112. plastos, plas-tos'; from G4111; moulded, i.e. (by impl.) artificial or (fig.) fictitious (false):--feigned

(2 Pet 1:19 KJV) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

(2 Pet 1:20 KJV) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

(2 Pet 1:21 KJV) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

(2 Pet 2:1 KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

(2 Pet 2:2 KJV) And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

(2 Pet 2:3 KJV) And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

"false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you,"

Fictitious, artificial, false. This is pretty clear,and we see teachers held in the same verse to the same standard. Ever taught something wrong?

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy"

If Peter and the rest of "we" had a more sure word, doesn't it stand that there are less sure words?

(1 Cor 14:28 KJV) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

(1 Cor 14:29 KJV) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

(1 Cor 14:30 KJV) If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

(1 Cor 14:31 KJV) For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

(1 Cor 14:32 KJV) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

(1 Cor 14:33 KJV) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

"For God is not the author of confusion" Who is speaking these scriptures? God

" in the church" Where are these instructions to be applied? God still speaking

" Let the prophets speak two or three" Where are they speaking? In the church!

(Oh my, now they are coming in handfuls!)

"For ye may all prophesy one by one" You mean even nonprophets can prophesy?

I find it strange that those that hold firm to the scriptural text as being complete and without error (and I also am one of these) have no problem eliminating certain uncomfortable parts (however I am not one of these).

These are new testament instructions given by GOD for how church should be conducted, how dare anyone snip this away by personal bias amd tradition?

For those that like to make prophesy into preach, teach, or any other word, here are the word definations. God used different words because these are different, as in not the same.

4395. propheteuo, prof-ate-yoo'-o; from G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office:--prophesy.

1321. didasko, did-as'-ko; a prol. (caus.) form of a prim. verb dao (to learn); to teach (in the same broad application):--teach.

3870. parakaleo, par-ak-al-eh'-o; from G3844 and G2564; to call near, i.e. invite, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation):--beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort (-ation), intreat, pray.;--exhort

2784. kerusso, kay-roos'-so; of uncert. affin.; to herald (as a public crier), espec. divine truth (the gospel):--preach (-er), proclaim, publish. ;--preach

To anyone that wants to snip out of their bibles scriptures, I recommend don't. To anyone that that wants to eliminate church ministeries like prophet, I recommend don't. Jesus is building what He has been given from the Father, and who are we to start yanking out foundation stones?

(Eph 2:19 KJV) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

(Eph 2:20 KJV) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

(Eph 2:21 KJV) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

(Eph 2:22 KJV) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

(Eph 3:1 KJV) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

(Eph 3:2 KJV) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

(Eph 3:3 KJV) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

(Eph 3:4 KJV) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

(Eph 3:5 KJV) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

(Eph 3:6 KJV) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

(Eph 3:7 KJV) Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

"is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" This is speakingof new testaments prophets, is now revealed. There is a GREAT NEED for the prophets, for they will not allow corruption of the ministry!

Consider a pastor tempted by lust begins to ingage in porn, and God sends a prophet to the pastor to remind him of the great cloud of witnesses and that everything is seen by the Lord Jesus, the pastor repents.

Without the prophet doing HIS job (like a cleaner fish in a fishtank) the pastor gets in deeper and deeper and then is in adultry, the family is divorced, the ministry is destroyed, and many are hurt in the fall of the pastor. This is happening worldwide, and we need prophets to be in place in the local church, it is for the sake of the overall health and growth of the body.

If you hate this, please pray about it, and search your bible.

(Amos 3:7 KJV) Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

When reading the part about prophets warning pastors about sin, most in the body have no reference to such. I have had the unfortunate duty to do so twice through the prophetic.

Once I went back to a church I had been a youth leader in. I had never met the youth pastor, and when I shook his hand, the Lord revealed the secrets of his heart to me and a divine warning of what would take place if he didn't turn from his sin. He told me that this 40 year old man with a wife and kids was lusting after a particular 17 year old girl, and if he did not stop it, it would end up destroying his marraige, his relationship with God, and this precious young ladys relationship with God. And because of that, the millstone prophecy would come true, and God would judge him horribly.

I was a young man in this, and was still learning the gift. So I sat on this word for 5 months. I lived in another city 45 minutes away. One day, God clearly spoke to me to no longer sit on this word. So I drove to this mans church, knocked on his office door, and reintroduced myself. I told him what the Lord had told me, and he broke down right there. He confessed that it was true. Everybody thought his wife was visiting her mother, but she had left him the month before. This girl and him were at the holding hand stage. He repented right there. His wife came back to him.

But 3 weeks later like a dog to the vomit, he returned to the young girl. Within a short time, he was arrested, went blind, and his wife and kids left him. This young lady left the Lord, and he now has nothing to do with God. It broke my heart.

The other time I attended and taught at one of thee most esteemed Charismatic churches in the country. The pastor there was held in high regard with all. He had been pastoring at this church for a very long time. The best and the brightest teachers and preachers sought to teach there on Sunday morning. If I mentioned the name of this church, and you have been a christian for the last 2 decades, you would know exactly which church I am talking about.

I loved my pastor, my church, and teaching adult Sunday School there. And I could not imagine whatsoever the word God spoke to me during worship one Sunday morning. He said "This church has sin from the top to the bottom and I am about to deal with it."

I immediatly rebuked that lying spirit, but God refused my rebuke, and said it all the louder. At this point I asked the Lord for a confirmation. A fleece if you may. I asked for a huge thing. I told the Lord to shake my city with a 3.5 earthquake that week, or I would ignore this as something by the devil. (I honestly thought I was out of the problem of giving this word.)

Tuesday, an earthquake of a 3.5 magnitude hit us. I forget the specific time, but I used that as another fleece, and asked the Lord to confirm through the scripture that there was sin in the church. I gave him several of the minor prophets and the time that it happened. I was sure some of these minor prophets would not even have enough chapters in them to qualify by using this method. (I think it happened in the 6 o'clock hour, so I used that as the chapter, and the minutes as the verse. To throw a loop into it, I also asked for a couple of NT books too because I figured it would not speak about sin in the church since the NT is full of grace and love.

All six chapters and verse were specifically about sin in the camp, church, or Israel. And about God wanting to deal with it.

Still not wanting to believe it, I used the "pass the buck" method, and spoke to the elders about it. Like me, this didn't sit well, and they told me to talk to the pastor. I had been hoping that they would, and leave me out of it. But I talked to him, and his first words to me was that I was to keep this quiet, and that it was not God. I was such an obedient puppy in those days. I was even ashamed of myself, and just knew that I had missed it.

A week later, while the pastor was leading a tour in Israel, his accountant came to the elders and showed them the real books. His $48,000 a year salary was really $125,000 and this had been going on for 20 some years. He was guilt ridden and came to get it out in the open. The elders called me immediately, and told me the news. So much more happened out of this, but this man is gone from this church, and a church with Cessationist leanings bought out the church. This man was almost put in jail for what he did. It was awful. How he stayed out, I do not know.

I have had to rebuke others for sin who were not in the ministry, and I hated it each time. I know this though. Those who responded with repentance had a life changing experience. Those who confirmed the word, but continued on in there sin had the other kind of life changing experience. It is part of the ministry of the prophetic, but I have always taught that it should be done working with the leadership, to keep it honest and to allow for healing to take place after the word is given. And also, in case the person is wrong, and the leadership having seen so can keep the prophetic in line so they don't go around rebuking people for sin they do not have. Pastors and prophets are meant to work together in this. I believe we need eachother.

[nebula]

Well there are limits to "whatever you want" for anyone, Nebby girl  :il:

That was a rhetorical question about God living in a house. God was asking David if ANYONE could build a house to hold him...then just 7 verses later he speaks about the Solomon building the Temple.

Sorry, yod, but I do not understand .

In reading the passage, I see Nathan first telling David, "Go for it," (paraphrase) for the Lord is with you,"

but it turns out that was incorrect.

So, Nathan had to go back and tell David the real word from the Lord.

So, why did Nathan say the first time, "Whatever you have in mind, go ahead and do it, for the LORD is with you"?

And why was that not considered a false prophecy and thus make him a false prophet?

Feeling lost here....

: Seriously wishing the Bible had a good descriptive story of what a prophet went through to become a prophet and how they actually heard from the Lord :