Rick-Parker Posted February 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,271 Content Per Day: 4.92 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 I agree you Lekh and I think a good question we should ask our selves is "What would cause a great falling away or departure from the faith". I believe that scripture gives us the answer to that question. When the antichrist comes what will he do? He will come as a man of peace. He will come talking like a Lamb. He will come with great wonders. He will be assassinated and come back to life just as Jesus did. He will sit in the temple of God showing himself to be God. He will make peace between the Israelites and the Muslims. He will show to the world that he has great powers and he will cause many to look upon him and say "Who can go up against him". He will cause most of the worlds leaders to align their powers with his and then he will implement the mark of the beast because the antichrist wants all of mankind to worship him instead of God. So does all of this sound like the wrath of God or a punishment of some sort? Here is what Christians who believe in pre-trib are scared to death of. When the mark of the beast is implemented none of us will not be able to keep a job, have a bank account, buy a car, feed our children, live in a home, buy electricity,water or gas for heat, buy food in a grocery store or anywhere else for that matter or any other thing that would require money to be used to get it. The scripture is very clear "You shall not be able to buy nor sell unless you receive the mark of ths beast". Folks the antichrist comes at the beginning of the seven years but according to scripture he doesn't bring any tribulation with him at first so how is it that we continue to ignore certain scriptures because we think the Wrath of God starts just as soon as the antichrist arrives on the world scene? Wake up and smell the coffee. There is not going to be seven years of wrath or tribulation. Only part of the seven years will be tribulation and or wrath. What makes you believe that? Have people told you that? I'm not afraid of those things. I am confident that I will be strong enough in the Holy Spirit to stand for Christ if I am wrong and my time comes. I believe that the Scriptures teach the Pre-Trib Rapture because (besides the Holy Spirit's leading) God has promised at least four times that He will save Christians from the wrath to come. 1. Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 2. 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 3. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, and 4. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. There may be some who are afraid of how they will survive in the world during the Trib, but that is because they are still trapped in the world. The vast majority have both feet with the Lord and not with one foot in the world. Be blessed, Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 9, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2010 Blessings, Some mention a pre-mid and post tribulation rapture? But I don't see in Scripture where the Lord or the New Testament writers gave us more than one option. I was curious what the very early church fathers believed and taught regarding this in my quest for the truth and came across the linked to article below. Someone was involved in an internet discussion just as we are having, did his own research, and posted it on the internet of what the early church fathers believed regarding the catching away of the church. Now, I propose each one could do their own research and come up with the same thing. The early church leaders and fathers, from the time of John the Apostle to the time of Augustine, a period that covers over 300 years, all believed in a post tribulation catching away of the church. After doing my own research, and after reading these quotes, in context, and seeing the concern for fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, warning them to stand firm in face of the persecution that may come to them, it is impossible for me to hold to a pre-tribulation belief. The early church did not have such a teaching. Who changed it?? http://www.pretribulationrapture.com/pretrib/article25c.htm I am happy that you see my concern and understand it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritman Posted February 9, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,131 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 23 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/22/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/25/1962 Share Posted February 9, 2010 Allow me to ask this question. When is the last trumpet? 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikki1 Posted February 9, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 98 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,260 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 55 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2010 Parker1 God has promised at least four times that He will save Christians from the wrath to come. I too believe this. The dilemma seems to come from the question when does God pour out his wrath? I believe that God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiritman Posted February 9, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 127 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,131 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 23 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/22/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/25/1962 Share Posted February 9, 2010 I've debated this before, more than on one occasion; and I've come to the conclusion that the rapture will indeed be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Concerning the differences between the pre and mid and post trib folks it seems to be a matter of interpretation. Here are some interesting facts that are hard to ingore. 1. The definition of the English term (caught up) in the Greek (harpazo) And the context in which it is used. in 2 Corth 12:2; 12:4; 1Thess 4:17; Revelation 12:5 The 2. you said; " The word rapture is not mention anywhere in scripture, should we not accept it because this word rapture in not used in the bible? How are these word used in the context of scripture? Where is a time line that gives proof of when the pre-position is to happen? When is at the core of this issue. You asked " how are these words used in context" My response; " In 2 Corth 12:2 Paul speaks about being caught up (harpazo, snatched up taken by force) into the the third heaven". This is used to describe in context an indivdual who was taken into heaven. In 2Corth 12:4, again the word is used to describe someone who was taken up into paradise. Paul is speaking about a person that he had heard about that was caught up to the 3rd heaven. How can get a rapture of the whole Church of Christ? This is no bases in which to accept pre-trib. In Revelation 12:5; in context caught up is used in context again to describe a child who was caught into heaven to God. The child in this passage is Jesus. The vereses 1-6 is a prophetic discription of Christ taken fromthe stars. There is no reason to think this has to do with the rapture of the church. I have yet to find a place in the scripture where harpazo is used in any othe way. In context I believe that there is a rapture, i believe that it will happen at the second coming of Christ found in Matthew 24:31. my response; "If you look at the book Daniel when describing the six weeks, it author turns his attention to Israel during the 7th week, and the church is not mentioned. This is hardly a defence of the pre-trib position. You believe that because the word church is not mention in Dan the church must be rapture. Was it used before in Daniel? You will not find the word church in the old teatiment. The word rapture is not mention anywhere in scripture, should we not accept it because this word rapture in not used in the bible? Why would Daniel use the word Church anyway? The word Church was not even used until the time of Jesus when He used it Matthew 16:18. What is so hard to ignore about these passages? None of these present a viable arguement for the pre-trib position. If this is what you want to believe regardless, that is your prerogitive. you said; " The word rapture is not mention anywhere in scripture, should we not accept it because this word rapture in not used in the bible? my response; " The latin vulgate written around 400 A.D written by Jerome has the latin word; rapiemur from where we get our word raputure, with this aside. Just because a word is not in the bible does not mean we can dismiss the concept. For example; do you believe in the Trinity? The word Trinity is no where in the Bible, but in Genesis chapter 1:26 it reads; "26 And God said, Let us make man in our http://' target="_blank">image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. in the above verse we see the concept of the Trinity even though the word is not in the Bible. Speaking of Bible, the word Bible is not in the Bible, but I read it everyday don't you? So we must also look for concepts as well as the words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 9, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2010 Allow me to ask this question. When is the last trumpet? 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 9, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2010 I've debated this before, more than on one occasion; and I've come to the conclusion that the rapture will indeed be a pre-tribulation Rapture. Concerning the differences between the pre and mid and post trib folks it seems to be a matter of interpretation. Here are some interesting facts that are hard to ingore. 1. The definition of the English term (caught up) in the Greek (harpazo) And the context in which it is used. in 2 Corth 12:2; 12:4; 1Thess 4:17; Revelation 12:5 The 2. you said; " The word rapture is not mention anywhere in scripture, should we not accept it because this word rapture in not used in the bible? How are these word used in the context of scripture? Where is a time line that gives proof of when the pre-position is to happen? When is at the core of this issue. You asked " how are these words used in context" My response; " In 2 Corth 12:2 Paul speaks about being caught up (harpazo, snatched up taken by force) into the the third heaven". This is used to describe in context an indivdual who was taken into heaven. In 2Corth 12:4, again the word is used to describe someone who was taken up into paradise. Paul is speaking about a person that he had heard about that was caught up to the 3rd heaven. How can get a rapture of the whole Church of Christ? This is no bases in which to accept pre-trib. In Revelation 12:5; in context caught up is used in context again to describe a child who was caught into heaven to God. The child in this passage is Jesus. The vereses 1-6 is a prophetic discription of Christ taken fromthe stars. There is no reason to think this has to do with the rapture of the church. I have yet to find a place in the scripture where harpazo is used in any othe way. In context I believe that there is a rapture, i believe that it will happen at the second coming of Christ found in Matthew 24:31. my response; "If you look at the book Daniel when describing the six weeks, it author turns his attention to Israel during the 7th week, and the church is not mentioned. This is hardly a defence of the pre-trib position. You believe that because the word church is not mention in Dan the church must be rapture. Was it used before in Daniel? You will not find the word church in the old teatiment. The word rapture is not mention anywhere in scripture, should we not accept it because this word rapture in not used in the bible? Why would Daniel use the word Church anyway? The word Church was not even used until the time of Jesus when He used it Matthew 16:18. What is so hard to ignore about these passages? None of these present a viable arguement for the pre-trib position. If this is what you want to believe regardless, that is your prerogitive. you said; " The word rapture is not mention anywhere in scripture, should we not accept it because this word rapture in not used in the bible? my response; " The latin vulgate written around 400 A.D written by Jerome has the latin word; rapiemur from where we get our word raputure, with this aside. Just because a word is not in the bible does not mean we can dismiss the concept. For example; do you believe in the Trinity? The word Trinity is no where in the Bible, but in Genesis chapter 1:26 it reads; "26 And God said, Let us make man in our <a href="http://" target="_blank"></a>image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. in the above verse we see the concept of the Trinity even though the word is not in the Bible. Speaking of Bible, the word Bible is not in the Bible, but I read it everyday don't you? So we must also look for concepts as well as the words. I was just following the same logic that you were using and was being a little snarky as well. Your points about the bible, trinity, are well founded in scripture and can be substantiated in the context of scripture, however, to use daniel to support your theory about the church not being mention, is quite a leap of faith. My issue is not if there will be a rapture, its when! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e lansing Posted February 9, 2010 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 895 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/23/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2010 God has promised at least four times that He will save Christians from the wrath to come. Nikki, you on the right track. Consider what jesus said in John 17:15 Jesus is praying and He say "I do not pray that you take them out of the world but you protect them from the evil one". Scripture speaks for it self without conjecture! Others like to use 1 Thess 1:10 5:9 as promises that christians will not go through the tribulation. When you read these they are speaking of eternal wrath. Read them in context and you will see what i mean. Scripture speaks for it self without conjecture! Rev 3:10 is the only passage in my opinion that supports a pre-trib position. Its the only one that causes me to pause. this is why i say be faithful till the end regardless. I still lean post mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 9, 2010 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2010 Did God remove Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego from the fire or did He see them through it? Did God remove the Hebrews from Egypt when He sent His plagues or did He protect them? Did God make a way to protect His people through the arc when He brought the flood? Did God show where Lot and his family would be safe when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? All through the scripture you see where God has protected His people in times of danger and wrath. Why is is so hard to believe that He will not do this for those during the Great Tribulation? The Rapture will be at the last trumpet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikki1 Posted February 9, 2010 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 98 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,260 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 55 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 9, 2010 God has promised at least four times that He will save Christians from the wrath to come. Nikki, you on the right track. Consider what jesus said in John 17:15 Jesus is praying and He say "I do not pray that you take them out of the world but you protect them from the evil one". Scripture speaks for it self without conjecture! Others like to use 1 Thess 1:10 5:9 as promises that christians will not go through the tribulation. When you read these they are speaking of eternal wrath. Read them in context and you will see what i mean. Scripture speaks for it self without conjecture! Rev 3:10 is the only passage in my opinion that supports a pre-trib position. Its the only one that causes me to pause. this is why i say be faithful till the end regardless. I still lean post mostly. Blessings, e I have studied all three positions before I came to the conclusion of "after the tribulation of those days"... It was so simple and fit like a glove with all the other scripture given. You don't have to hack up scripture to make it fit. Why didn't the early church fathers promote this pre-trib theory if it was so? As you say, scripture interprets scripture. I don't see how you can even bring Rev. 3:10 to support a pre-tribulation theory? Without adding to scripture, which is forbidden. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. This verse says nothing about being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. It merely says He will keep us from the hour of temptation. The word keep is significant in this verse, so I looked it up in the Greek-Hebrew concordance, and it in no way implies a rapture or catching away G5083-Keep τηρέω tēreō tay-reh'-o From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch. From this definition, it looks as if the Lord will be watching over, providing for and keeping us safe under his watchful care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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