Sleep in Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

First of all this verse does not say that these souls are in heaven. It says that these souls are "under the alter" so where is "under the alter at? Could it be in heaven? Maybe but this verse doesn't clearly tell us that. Could it be here on earth? Maybe but this verse doesn't clearly tell us that. Could under the alter be in the earth? Maybe but again this verse doesn't clearly tell us that.

John was taken up into heaven. That is the theatre of events. Chapter 5 tells us that the seals are broken by the Lamb upon the throne. Where is the throne at? Are you seriously going to to say that the throne is not in heaven? John has been seeing the events taking place in heaven since the beginning of chapter 4. To say that this is not taking place in heaven is an assertion that cannot be taken seriously.

When I say that I take the bible literally I am saying that if it is not written in the bible then the verse doesn't say it. So to come to a conclusion on a biblical question I look for other more specific scriptures that would better explain an answer. The study tools that I use are reputable and well researched study tools. They are the Strong's which took Mr Strong more then 30 years to complete which is why it is called "Exhaustive". The Thayer's Greek English Lexicon, the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon, the Holman's Bible Dictionary and several others and they all tell me that in the verses we are talking about the word "sleep" means exactly that. They don't tell me that the word sleep is a metaphor for death they tell me that the word means "sleeping". So whom or what should I believe? You or my study guilds. I have to trust in my study guilds because without them I am certainly open for deception. I am sure that your not trying to deceive me but there are many who would.

No, they would not tell you that a metaphor is being employed because that is not what they are designed for. I am talking about hermeneutics, not simple concordances or dictionaries. It is through proper hememeneutics and exegesis and being competent enough with the language to understand what types literary devices are being employed.

Strongs, and Thayers and Brown-Driver-Briggs simply tells you what a word means. They don't tell you how a word or phrase is being used. Word usage goes back to what I was saying earlier about connotation. Metaphors do not pertain what a word means, but how it is used and it is being used as a metaphor.

I have to trust in my study guilds because without them I am certainly open for deception.

The problem is that you don't recognize the limits of the materials you are using. There is more to word study than just what word means. You have to understand what the author meant when He used that word. There is also the entire historical/cultural context to consider as well. Words are containers of more than just a lexical or dictionary definition. They are containers of thoughts, ideas and emotions and all of that plays into how a word is used.

My research also tells me that the alter spoken of in Revelation 6:9 is speaking of the alter of incense that is in heaven of which a replica was made to go into the Holy of Holies in the temple of God in Jerusalem. If Heaven is up from where we are then you and I are both under the alter and so are all of the dead in Christ. If the verse said that these souls were in deed in heaven then I would abide by that but this verse doesn't say thatn so I can not assume that those souls are in heaven.

That is again, really grasping at straws.

I would also note that they are petitioning God, which also means that they are not "sleeping." They are fully aware of what is going on and remember their martyrdom and are asking God to avenge their blood.

16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. There are no coincidences in the word of God.

What were the words of Abraham? 16:29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And then a man named Lazarus was raised from the dead and they wanted to kill him for it.

The problem with that is that Abraham was denying the request for Lazarus to be resurrected. Jesus leaves the story with Lazarus not having been resurrected.

You are simply reaching for something that is not there. If you want to believe the two Lazaruses are the same, that is up to you, but it exists ONLY in your imagination, and is not the product of a skillful handling of the text. Nothing you present is convincing in the least. But I cannot stop you from believing it if that is what you want to do.

Besides the parable of Lazarus and the story of Lazarus are written in two different books so how do you know that the sequence of events took place in the order you say they did?

Because in John, after Jesus raises Lazarus, he enters Jerusalem on the foal of the donkey. The raising of Lazarus occurs at the end of Jesus' ministry, just a matter of days before the Passover and His crucifixion. The story of the rich man and Lazarus occurs much, much earlier in Jesus' ministry. There are four chapters that separate the Parable of the rich man and Jesus' entry into Jerusalem. Which means that the parable was related far, far in advance of Jesus resurrecting the REAL Lazarus from the grave, which means that they cannot be same person.

[Guest]

.... I believe this sleep is a state of no consciousness.Is this truth? ....

The Soul Rejoices

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Corinthians 5:6-8

And Will Return

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:14

To It's Body

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:16

Again!

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job 19:25-27

Hallelujah!

[Arthur Durnan]

Without the bat of an eyelash, let me relate that my dear mom is also "Celtic," better Scottish from Aloa near Glasgow. Peace be upon her. No, I said & meant CULTIC because the philkosophy to which you adhere are essential components of JFWs & SDAs. Maybe you didn't realize that? BTW, you failed to address my query re your association, of lack of such, with either of those 19th-century false cults. And the reason might be? Better still, why not underscore your present affiliation with whom, the better to see where our esteemed friend is coming from? Zowie, let's run with that, and I'll run alongside you......as in Evangelical!

Yes, of course, the BODY turns to dust, a reference to your sleeping body-wise while the SPIRIT goes to be with Jesus Christ immediately upon death acc. to Solomon's "under-the-sun" (4:7) statements. Eccles. 12:7. So if the spirit of man "returns to God Who gave it," pray tell, what might be the fantastic rationale for going to be with the Lord Jesus while in "slumber mode"? Luke 16 gives the lie to your cultic rendering because it is abundantly clear that the precise moment Lazarus died, he was enjoying Paradise because it mentions that he was comforted - hardly a term that could be applied to someone "turning to dust" & subject to your "soul-sleep." Jehovah's False Witnesses would hardly give you an argument at all if you visited their "Kingdom Halls" echoing your unconsciousness theory. They're the strongest proponents of it.

[Arthur Durnan]

Wahl, might it not be almost time to regain, let us say, if you don't mind it, evangelical church association in view of the fact that Jesus Himself died for His Church & bought it at such tremendous price? Sounds a bit like you probably have your very own theological twist re Luke 16 ie, that it's a but a fairly meaningless parable without specific intent, even though names are not mentioned in our Lord's parables as in this one! So, Lazarus was a non-entity.....his actual death a myth.....Jesus' very words about an eternal destiny - ie, "in Hades he lifted his eyes" - only a Halloween-type caper.....and Lazarus' "five brethren" an elaborate exercise in absolute triviality, mendacity, even deceit on behalf of our Lord! Methinks you could be guilty of - oh, I hate to go there - a rhetorical fandango on the Christ of Glory's assurances re eternal realities. Your viewpoint literally screams Mini-Series!

BTW, you forgot to address my reminder to you that Lazarus was consciously enjoying Paradise because he was being "comforted" after his demise. Why your omission? And you didn't reply to my assertion about death being "gain" for Christian believers when, according to your view, "death means unconsciousness." No thanx, I much prefer staying alive to enjoy that "gain" of serving Jesus right here on Planet Earth as opposed to moving into your "soul-sleep" and "unconsciousness" which can in no wise be pronounced true "gain." A world of absolute "nothingness" holds no candle to conscious presence with the Lord of the harvest! My point still firmly holds that JFWs & SDAs would in no wise argue with your abstruse philosophy that dying in Jesus Christ tends to be akin to what occurs immediately after the final effusion of a discharged battery.

Don't think for even a New York Minute that I don't love Australia with most of my heart, mate, but I do wonder the odd time about a few of her former church members. you know, the ones who fly sometimes on one wing only. Yea, God bless Australia!

<http://www.worthychristianforums.com/uploads/emoticons/default_vader.gif' alt=':vader:'>)))X

[Massorite]

6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

First of all this verse does not say that these souls are in heaven. It says that these souls are "under the alter" so where is "under the alter at? Could it be in heaven? Maybe but this verse doesn't clearly tell us that. Could it be here on earth? Maybe but this verse doesn't clearly tell us that. Could under the alter be in the earth? Maybe but again this verse doesn't clearly tell us that.

John was taken up into heaven. That is the theatre of events. Chapter 5 tells us that the seals are broken by the Lamb upon the throne. Where is the throne at? Are you seriously going to to say that the throne is not in heaven? John has been seeing the events taking place in heaven since the beginning of chapter 4. To say that this is not taking place in heaven is an assertion that cannot be taken seriously.

When I say that I take the bible literally I am saying that if it is not written in the bible then the verse doesn't say it. So to come to a conclusion on a biblical question I look for other more specific scriptures that would better explain an answer. The study tools that I use are reputable and well researched study tools. They are the Strong's which took Mr Strong more then 30 years to complete which is why it is called "Exhaustive". The Thayer's Greek English Lexicon, the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon, the Holman's Bible Dictionary and several others and they all tell me that in the verses we are talking about the word "sleep" means exactly that. They don't tell me that the word sleep is a metaphor for death they tell me that the word means "sleeping". So whom or what should I believe? You or my study guilds. I have to trust in my study guilds because without them I am certainly open for deception. I am sure that your not trying to deceive me but there are many who would.

No, they would not tell you that a metaphor is being employed because that is not what they are designed for. I am talking about hermeneutics, not simple concordances or dictionaries. It is through proper hememeneutics and exegesis and being competent enough with the language to understand what types literary devices are being employed.

Strongs, and Thayers and Brown-Driver-Briggs simply tells you what a word means. They don't tell you how a word or phrase is being used. Word usage goes back to what I was saying earlier about connotation. Metaphors do not pertain what a word means, but how it is used and it is being used as a metaphor.

I have to trust in my study guilds because without them I am certainly open for deception.

The problem is that you don't recognize the limits of the materials you are using. There is more to word study than just what word means. You have to understand what the author meant when He used that word. There is also the entire historical/cultural context to consider as well. Words are containers of more than just a lexical or dictionary definition. They are containers of thoughts, ideas and emotions and all of that plays into how a word is used.

My research also tells me that the alter spoken of in Revelation 6:9 is speaking of the alter of incense that is in heaven of which a replica was made to go into the Holy of Holies in the temple of God in Jerusalem. If Heaven is up from where we are then you and I are both under the alter and so are all of the dead in Christ. If the verse said that these souls were in deed in heaven then I would abide by that but this verse doesn't say thatn so I can not assume that those souls are in heaven.

That is again, really grasping at straws.

I would also note that they are petitioning God, which also means that they are not "sleeping." They are fully aware of what is going on and remember their martyrdom and are asking God to avenge their blood.

16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. There are no coincidences in the word of God.

What were the words of Abraham? 16:29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And then a man named Lazarus was raised from the dead and they wanted to kill him for it.

The problem with that is that Abraham was denying the request for Lazarus to be resurrected. Jesus leaves the story with Lazarus not having been resurrected.

You are simply reaching for something that is not there. If you want to believe the two Lazaruses are the same, that is up to you, but it exists ONLY in your imagination, and is not the product of a skillful handling of the text. Nothing you present is convincing in the least. But I cannot stop you from believing it if that is what you want to do.

Besides the parable of Lazarus and the story of Lazarus are written in two different books so how do you know that the sequence of events took place in the order you say they did?

Because in John, after Jesus raises Lazarus, he enters Jerusalem on the foal of the donkey. The raising of Lazarus occurs at the end of Jesus' ministry, just a matter of days before the Passover and His crucifixion. The story of the rich man and Lazarus occurs much, much earlier in Jesus' ministry. There are four chapters that separate the Parable of the rich man and Jesus' entry into Jerusalem. Which means that the parable was related far, far in advance of Jesus resurrecting the REAL Lazarus from the grave, which means that they cannot be same person.

Lets face it and agree to disagree. I think that it is totally illogical to die and be changed into a purified body or glorified body thereby leaving corruptable so we can go to heaven and hang with God and then when God desideds it is time for the resurrection to take place we would have to come back to the grave and lay in it until Jesus comes to resurrect us back out of the grave so we can once again be changed into our glorified body so we can go back to heaven and stand before the throne of God a number which no man can count.

What does Revelation 6:11 say-6:11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should {rest} yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So once again we are talking about the word "rest" which in this verse means "to sleep". So lets say that you are 100% right and lets remove the word rest and replace it with the word dead. Here is what it would look like "And it was told to them that they should " dead or stay dead" yet for a little season. But wait a minute they just gave them white robes and they are still under the alter.

You have a good point about how they are pititioning God and I do not have an asnwer for that one one but then again if we start back where we started we still have "the dead know nothing" so is this a biblical controdiction? No I don't think so but do think that there must be something that I am missing and it is not a medaphor. I try hard not to get into knowing something just because I want to be right so I have been doing some reseach while we have been talking and I found that the the number of those who believe one way or another are about equal. Here is what I found though it is just a very small part.

The term

[priest4Him]

Jesus describes death as sleep.Why?

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Strongs sleep (concerning death)

G2837

κοιμάω

koimaō

koy-mah'-o

From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.

Jesus knows death is only temporary,so likens it to sleep.

And so the elect are those that sleep in Jesus.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I believe this sleep is a state of no consciousness.Is this truth?

The idea of soul-sleep is usually defended by citing scriptures like the ones you have stated above (Matthew 9:24; Acts 7:60 etc). But the question we must ask is in what sense the word is being used. Is it meant to describe a literal sleep, or is it being used metaphorically to describe the temporal nature of death for believers? For example. Jesus says this in John 11:11:

He said this, and then He told them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I'm on My way to wake him up." (John 11:11 CSB). Jesus did not say here that Lazarus' soul was asleep. No passage of scripture says this. In th passage above John actually explains that Jesus did not mean this literally, but figuratively:

Jesus, however, was speaking about his death, but they thought He was speaking about natural sleep. (John 11:13 HCSB)

We do however have passages that describe people who have died being in a conscious state:

Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God (the heavenly Jerusalem), to myriads of angels in festive gathering, to the assembly of the firstborn whose names have been written in heaven, to God who is the judge of all, to the spirits of righteous people made perfect, to Jesus (mediator of a new covenant), and to the sprinkled blood, which says better things than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews 12:22-24 HCSB)

This does not describe angels and a host of sleeping souls.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of God's word and the testimony they had. They cried out with a loud voice: "O Lord, holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?" (Revelation 6:9-10 CSB)

Again, the martyrs described here are pictured as souls who are awake and crying out to God, not asleep.

Heb 12: 22-24. According to verse 24, Paul is here talking about the glories of the new covenant relationship as compared to the old covenant idea of human effort alone. Sinai is used to represent the old covenant (verses 18-21), and Jerusalem is used to represent the new. In Galatians 4:24-26, the very same parallel is made symbolizing the two covenants by Sinai and Jerusalem.

Some have interpreted these verses to mean that souls go immediately into heavens at death to appear at the judment bar. But please notice this is the key word, that these people come "to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant" Those who are saved in heeaven will no longer, need a mediator such as is described here. Sin will have ceased for them, don't you think so?

Paul is actually describing the life of a Christian here in this world as he begins to experience the joys of the new covenant relationship. Such a Christian comes to:

1.- "Mount Sion .. the city of the living God." Peter speaks of the church in similar language: "lively stones, .. a spiritual house." 1 Pet. 2:4-6.

2.- "An innumerable company of angels", descriptive of the angel ministry for the saints mentioned in Heb 1:7.

3.- "The general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven", another description of the body of Christ on this earth. Paul spoke of his fellow laboreres as those "whose names are in the book of life." Phil. 4:3.

4.- "God the judge of all." This is parallel language to Heb 4:16, which says, "come boldly unto the throne of grace," and to Heb 7:25, which says, "He is able also to save them...that come unto God by him."

5.- "The spirits of just men made perfect" not disembodied spirits as some imagine, but the kindred spirit of Chrisitan with Christian. Paul contrasts those who walk "afer the flesh" and those who walk "after the spirit." But thse are real people who have spiritual natures that are sanctified through the blood of the new covenant. Compare Heb.10:14 "For by one offering he hath perfected for eve them that are sanctified."

So, again this verse is not talking about disembodied spirits. I would like to think in this matter; let

[priest4Him]

6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

First of all this verse does not say that these souls are in heaven. It says that these souls are "under the alter" so where is "under the alter at? Could it be in heaven? Maybe but this verse doesn't clearly tell us that. Could it be here on earth? Maybe but this verse doesn't clearly tell us that. Could under the alter be in the earth? Maybe but again this verse doesn't clearly tell us that.

John was taken up into heaven. That is the theatre of events. Chapter 5 tells us that the seals are broken by the Lamb upon the throne. Where is the throne at? Are you seriously going to to say that the throne is not in heaven? John has been seeing the events taking place in heaven since the beginning of chapter 4. To say that this is not taking place in heaven is an assertion that cannot be taken seriously.

When I say that I take the bible literally I am saying that if it is not written in the bible then the verse doesn't say it. So to come to a conclusion on a biblical question I look for other more specific scriptures that would better explain an answer. The study tools that I use are reputable and well researched study tools. They are the Strong's which took Mr Strong more then 30 years to complete which is why it is called "Exhaustive". The Thayer's Greek English Lexicon, the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon, the Holman's Bible Dictionary and several others and they all tell me that in the verses we are talking about the word "sleep" means exactly that. They don't tell me that the word sleep is a metaphor for death they tell me that the word means "sleeping". So whom or what should I believe? You or my study guilds. I have to trust in my study guilds because without them I am certainly open for deception. I am sure that your not trying to deceive me but there are many who would.

No, they would not tell you that a metaphor is being employed because that is not what they are designed for. I am talking about hermeneutics, not simple concordances or dictionaries. It is through proper hememeneutics and exegesis and being competent enough with the language to understand what types literary devices are being employed.

Strongs, and Thayers and Brown-Driver-Briggs simply tells you what a word means. They don't tell you how a word or phrase is being used. Word usage goes back to what I was saying earlier about connotation. Metaphors do not pertain what a word means, but how it is used and it is being used as a metaphor.

I have to trust in my study guilds because without them I am certainly open for deception.

The problem is that you don't recognize the limits of the materials you are using. There is more to word study than just what word means. You have to understand what the author meant when He used that word. There is also the entire historical/cultural context to consider as well. Words are containers of more than just a lexical or dictionary definition. They are containers of thoughts, ideas and emotions and all of that plays into how a word is used.

My research also tells me that the alter spoken of in Revelation 6:9 is speaking of the alter of incense that is in heaven of which a replica was made to go into the Holy of Holies in the temple of God in Jerusalem. If Heaven is up from where we are then you and I are both under the alter and so are all of the dead in Christ. If the verse said that these souls were in deed in heaven then I would abide by that but this verse doesn't say thatn so I can not assume that those souls are in heaven.

That is again, really grasping at straws.

I would also note that they are petitioning God, which also means that they are not "sleeping." They are fully aware of what is going on and remember their martyrdom and are asking God to avenge their blood.

16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. There are no coincidences in the word of God.

What were the words of Abraham? 16:29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And then a man named Lazarus was raised from the dead and they wanted to kill him for it.

The problem with that is that Abraham was denying the request for Lazarus to be resurrected. Jesus leaves the story with Lazarus not having been resurrected.

You are simply reaching for something that is not there. If you want to believe the two Lazaruses are the same, that is up to you, but it exists ONLY in your imagination, and is not the product of a skillful handling of the text. Nothing you present is convincing in the least. But I cannot stop you from believing it if that is what you want to do.

Besides the parable of Lazarus and the story of Lazarus are written in two different books so how do you know that the sequence of events took place in the order you say they did?

Because in John, after Jesus raises Lazarus, he enters Jerusalem on the foal of the donkey. The raising of Lazarus occurs at the end of Jesus' ministry, just a matter of days before the Passover and His crucifixion. The story of the rich man and Lazarus occurs much, much earlier in Jesus' ministry. There are four chapters that separate the Parable of the rich man and Jesus' entry into Jerusalem. Which means that the parable was related far, far in advance of Jesus resurrecting the REAL Lazarus from the grave, which means that they cannot be same person.

Lets face it and agree to disagree. I think that it is totally illogical to die and be changed into a purified body or glorified body thereby leaving corruptable so we can go to heaven and hang with God and then when God desideds it is time for the resurrection to take place we would have to come back to the grave and lay in it until Jesus comes to resurrect us back out of the grave so we can once again be changed into our glorified body so we can go back to heaven and stand before the throne of God a number which no man can count.

What does Revelation 6:11 say-6:11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should {rest} yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So once again we are talking about the word "rest" which in this verse means "to sleep". So lets say that you are 100% right and lets remove the word rest and replace it with the word dead. Here is what it would look like "And it was told to them that they should " dead or stay dead" yet for a little season. But wait a minute they just gave them white robes and they are still under the alter.

You have a good point about how they are pititioning God and I do not have an asnwer for that one one but then again if we start back where we started we still have "the dead know nothing" so is this a biblical controdiction? No I don't think so but do think that there must be something that I am missing and it is not a medaphor. I try hard not to get into knowing something just because I want to be right so I have been doing some reseach while we have been talking and I found that the the number of those who believe one way or another are about equal. Here is what I found though it is just a very small part.

The term

[Guest]

The Master's

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43

Talk

And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. Luke 20:34-38

Again

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 18:10

Seriously

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:47-48

>>>>>()<<<<<

Brothers!

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Revelation 6:9-11

Or Not

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Revelation 22:13-15

>>>>>()<<<<<

Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

Or Not

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

Believe And Be Blessed Beloved

Love, Joe

[Arthur Durnan]

Ah, tis true...pay peanuts, get monkeys. Comin' at ya! You again forgot to deal with my wonderful point re "being comforted" after one's demise: "Now he is comforted, and you are [/i]tormented." How can anyone be "comforted" or "tormented" if one enters "soul-sleep" & "unconsciousness" upon death? Notice too the word "Now" indicating present happening Gotta relate that your thot re Jesus' sober words in Luke 16 re eternal destiny is akin to ordering a Ferrari, but getting it in automatic.

Oh, oh, a guy has just come in. He wants me to sell me a Faberge egg, a Lada and an O.J. jersey. No way. I think I'll just have him leave.

God Bless Australia!

[Guest shiloh357]

Jesus' own word's teach that there is an existence of rest and reward for the faithful and certain types of punishment and torment for those who are evil. In Lk.16 the story of the rich man and Lazarus, which is not a parable. The Lord would begin by saying he spoke to them in a parable, he did not use proper names as he did in this story (There was a certain man named Lazarus).

The Hebrew word for parable is midrash. A midrash is a ficticious story meant to teach a moral/spiritual lesson.

Midrashim were always fictitcious AND they often used the names of biblical characters in fictitious situatons. There are stories about God, Elijah, Moses, Solomon, Abraham, and so forth. There are even parables where the letters of the Heberw alphabet talk to God Himself. The fact that Jesus used a proper name does not mean it is not a parable.

However even if we were to grant this to be a parable, do we find any parable that did not tell the truth about the subject matter using illustrations for a real event?

None of the parables illustrate real events. That is why they are parables. They are be definition, fictitious.

When the rich man died and was buried he spoke of being tormented in flame. It describes some type of heat that did not destroy him but made it extremely uncomfortable as he is existing in some type of form. He had his intelligence emotions and he could see, hear and speak as he asked for his family to be warned. He was still alive as he spoke, thirsted and remembered his family asking Abraham to send Lazarus to warn them so they would not end up in this PLACE of torment. (This word torment is used 5 times in the thirteen versus certainly making the point of how real it is).

Do you not see the hole your logic??? You are trying to say that "sleep" must be taken literally and that the soul sleeps in death. But on the other hand, you are trying to defend the notion that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a real account of an experience in the afterlife and that the rich man was literally being tormented while fully awake.

You cannot have this both ways. If the rich man and Lazarus is an historical event, then it proves we do not "sleep" after we die but are very much awake, and conscious of our eternal state.

If you are going to argue that we necessarily sleep after death, then the story of the rich man Lazarus cannot be an actual event. If the story of the rich man and Lazarus depicts an actual event, then we do not sleep.

So how can a spirit be able to do the same things he does in the body? Angels (both good and bad) are spirits and they certainly can see, hear, speak. The Bible does not give us much information about man after he dies.

Well, that should not be problem for you if you believe the story about the rich man and Lazarus is a real event. I don't see why that should be odd to you at all, but then, you really have not really thought this through very well.

Sorry, but you really have a very irrational and internally inconsistent position.