Socialism's not in the Bible

[~candice~]

These are the times we live in, unfortunately. I thank God for His promises and look forward to His return. If the one nation on earth that seemed to be soley capable of protecting an idividual's liberty under any circumstance falls by the wayside, then there remains no hope for freedom outside of direct intervention by the hand of God.

I think some people from other nations might be offended at the thought that liberty is solely an American thing .

So yeah, it's easier to be lax, working for nothing, and letting the government take care of our most miniscule needs at every turn but what's left when a majority of the nation feels that the situation is acceptable and even normal? Within 50 years our government will have placed caps on how much we can make, how much we can spend and on what, and virtually every other aspect of our lives....but can we truly call that life?

t.

Yes yes yes we can, we will and we should. No one needs to give up and be depressed, just because the government we live under has fallen from a great height into a system we despise.

Our joy is from the Lord, not our circumstances, not our nation and not our economy.

This life is valuable and precious! I don't understand your perspective here ted.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Chinese christian living under the Chinese government. Their government and economic system is much much worse that the comparative utopia you have.

[Guest]

Vexed?

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 2 Peter 2:7-9

Trust

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

Jesus

Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jeremiah 17:7

He Will

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

Bring You Home

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3

Bless His Holy Name!

[ted]

Andy, you twisted my words just enough to make it appear to be different from what I actually said. Liberty is not, nor should it be, soley an American thing. My intention was to say that America is the one nation designed from the beginning to maximize an individual's rights to freedom. Although that idea was tossed in the trash can long ago, it does not erase the original intentions of many of the founders of our country. We are also one of the only countries in the world that has the strength to protect itself from foreign invasion without losing everything. Those two points were what I was trying to convey, not that America is somehow special and above everyone else to the point of having some unique claim to liberty.

If you would like to use my words in discussion, please use them correctly so that an honest discussion may prevail

t.

[ted]

I'm sorry but my Firefox browser is making the quote feature mess up

As far as "life" goes, I think it's fair to assume that liberty and freedom should be allowed for everyone. I think it's reasonable to expect the most out of liberty and find it offensive that any government would assume that they can trample on an individual's rights of freedom. Further, I find it highly offensive that any government would assume the role of protector over me or anyone else, thereby enacting laws that, in effect, legalize robbery from my efforts. I don't feel it's my responsibility to provide for anyone else's kid's schooling, or their healthcare, or their protection, or their welfare. Although I willingly help those in need on a consistent basis, I find it offensive that any government could fathom that they have enough power to make me or anyone else do so against their will.

Still, we give them the power and they gain more and more from us with every piece of legislation that is enacted. Most of it we'll never see, but it marches closer to your door each day. I fail to see how anyone couldn't see this coming eventually. These past four administrations have done more to expand state power and lessen an individual's liberty than all of the previous one before them. This last one seems to be the worst as they don't even bother to hide their intentions as others have in the past.

Although I would endure every hardship that God wants me to, and I would lay my life down for Him if He so desired, I do not feel the same for liars or thieves, and see no reasonable expectation for me to live as a slave. Endurance is something I have, and if ever needed, I will excercise it to the best of my ability. As of this writing that doesn't seem to be the case.

Are you asking me to accept massive losses of my liberties simply to prove my endurance? Do you want us to lose freedom because it's somehow God's will? I'm not sure I understand your main point, although I do understand your Chinese example. I pray for all who are under bondage and hope they one day gain the strength to win their freedom. I pray that God will soften the hearts of those that are under the impression that keeping liberty in bondage will not work. I pray that evil men and women see the Light and follow accordingly. I pray all these things, but at the same time, I pray that I have the strength to fight anyone or any system that seeks to take my freedoms away from me. Those freedoms are not theirs to take, but God's. If the time comes where the battle is over and I'm under bondage somehow, I will endure. But personally, I'd rather die and rest in peace.

t.

[~candice~]

Andy, you twisted my words just enough to make it appear to be different from what I actually said. Liberty is not, nor should it be, soley an American thing. My intention was to say that America is the one nation designed from the beginning to maximize an individual's rights to freedom. Although that idea was tossed in the trash can long ago, it does not erase the original intentions of many of the founders of our country. We are also one of the only countries in the world that has the strength to protect itself from foreign invasion without losing everything. Those two points were what I was trying to convey, not that America is somehow special and above everyone else to the point of having some unique claim to liberty.

If you would like to use my words in discussion, please use them correctly so that an honest discussion may prevail

t.

Ted,

I know of no other way to interpret this:

If the one nation on earth that seemed to be soley capable of protecting an idividual's liberty under any circumstance falls by the wayside, then there remains no hope for freedom outside of direct intervention by the hand of God.

They are your own words. I didn't twist them at all. You spoke of one nation, solely capable of ... and without America there remains no hope for individual freedom outside of God.

If what you meant was the above (in blue), then there was a gap between what you meant (in green) and what you said (in blue), that shouldn't be attributed to me 'twisting'. How about just saying you feel as if you didn't express yourself as intended?

Andy

[~candice~]

I'm sorry but my Firefox browser is making the quote feature mess up

As far as "life" goes, I think it's fair to assume that liberty and freedom should be allowed for everyone. I think it's reasonable to expect the most out of liberty and find it offensive that any government would assume that they can trample on an individual's rights of freedom. Further, I find it highly offensive that any government would assume the role of protector over me or anyone else, thereby enacting laws that, in effect, legalize robbery from my efforts. I don't feel it's my responsibility to provide for anyone else's kid's schooling, or their healthcare, or their protection, or their welfare. Although I willingly help those in need on a consistent basis, I find it offensive that any government could fathom that they have enough power to make me or anyone else do so against their will.

Still, we give them the power and they gain more and more from us with every piece of legislation that is enacted. Most of it we'll never see, but it marches closer to your door each day. I fail to see how anyone couldn't see this coming eventually. These past four administrations have done more to expand state power and lessen an individual's liberty than all of the previous one before them. This last one seems to be the worst as they don't even bother to hide their intentions as others have in the past.

Although I would endure every hardship that God wants me to, and I would lay my life down for Him if He so desired, I do not feel the same for liars or thieves, and see no reasonable expectation for me to live as a slave. Endurance is something I have, and if ever needed, I will excercise it to the best of my ability. As of this writing that doesn't seem to be the case.

Are you asking me to accept massive losses of my liberties simply to prove my endurance? Do you want us to lose freedom because it's somehow God's will? I'm not sure I understand your main point, although I do understand your Chinese example. I pray for all who are under bondage and hope they one day gain the strength to win their freedom. I pray that God will soften the hearts of those that are under the impression that keeping liberty in bondage will not work. I pray that evil men and women see the Light and follow accordingly. I pray all these things, but at the same time, I pray that I have the strength to fight anyone or any system that seeks to take my freedoms away from me. Those freedoms are not theirs to take, but God's. If the time comes where the battle is over and I'm under bondage somehow, I will endure. But personally, I'd rather die and rest in peace.

t.

Ted,

Well written.

Most of the Americans I speak to are happy, actually promote, the idea of taxation paying for their protection [i'm thinking of the military here]. Seems you are not in agreement with them? Or were you thinking of something else when you said protection?

Further, I find it highly offensive that any government would assume the role of protector over me or anyone else, thereby enacting laws that, in effect, legalize robbery from my efforts. I don't feel it's my responsibility to provide for anyone else's kid's schooling, or their healthcare, or their protection, or their welfare.

Health care and schooling are a whole other kettle of fish. Instead of berating my point on those two issues, I can link you to my posts of them if you really wish to read my opinion.

I also value personal liberty. But I feel that liberty can be impeded by things like lack of education / schooling, lack of health care, lack of regulation of fiscal markets, lack of governance / protection against foreign threat to safety and trade. I see the liberty of others being violated by their lack of services. So we are coming at this from very different points of view.

Are you asking me to accept massive losses of my liberties simply to prove my endurance? Do you want us to lose freedom because it's somehow God's will?

No I am not. I am asking you to consider life valuable, even if you are forced to live under a governance that is not what the American utopia of the past was. Many people worldwide would give much to live under your current administration! While the fall from utopia might be distressing, I think we ought to be careful not to mock others by suggesting that its "not life" to live under a governance that impedes personal liberties, when those others live under much much worse governance.

If the time comes where the battle is over and I'm under bondage somehow, I will endure. But personally, I'd rather die and rest in peace.

Well, this is the attitude I disagree with. I know you said you will endure, but you seem to value personal liberties over life itself. Yet what you have failed to acknowledge [perhaps because I didn't explain my 'China' point very well] is that you still have [relative to others] huge amounts of personal freedom. Many are fighting for what you have now. Am I reading correctly if I understand you would endure, but would rather not, if forced to live under a lack of personal liberties, such as communist China?

[ted]

I guess it's a matter of being selfish in my old(er) age

I'm saying that it is now preferrable to me to not to see the liberties I served to protect for over 20 years stripped away by the very government that used me to keep it powerful. I'm in a time now that I would prefer my government to back away and shrink in scope and size rather than grow ever larger, spending ungodly amounts of money we don't have on more and more programs designed to entrap those that dip from it.

I don't want to hand over my freedom to career politicians simply because they feel they can manage every aspect of my life (in general) better than I can. I don't want them assuming the role of protector, educator, business manager, or any other role I have to pay for which returns virtually nothing back to myself or most that pay into it. I see no wisdom in watching our government grow larger while individual liberty shrinks. I'm finding the concept of state rather hard to digest lately because it's based on masses handing over their liberty over to a few in exchange for simple services which I rarely use. History has shown that in almost every case, that power is abused and is rarely given back to those which handed it over in the first place. Personally, I'm a bit tired of the systems we give power to, I reckon.

We all see it, we all talk about it. It's always there easily identified by the tell-tale signs of lying, deceit, abuse of power, thievery, slavery, wanton reckless behavior, and a multitude of sin and corruption that we somehow accept as the norm. I guess I'm just tired of it being the norm, that's all. The more I see it, the more sick I become of it. We wouldn't put up with this in our own homes or accept this behavior from those we come in contact with as friends or neighbors, so why should we accept it with little or no reaction from those that we elect to be our voice in the centers of power?

Now, do I value life even in bondage? Of course. I would count it a blessing to suffer for God if so chosen, but I do not share the same sentiment when talking in terms of liars and bloated thieves, such as we have running our country these days. In decades or centuries past, we could simply suffer through an adminsistration such as what we have today, knowing that in just a few years things might right the ship again in the future. I do not think we can count on those same hopes these days. I think the damage being done today will be reversable only through God's hand if it continues much longer at this rate. Personally, I don't think we can recover on our own this time

Even so Lord, come.

In that sense, I guess I'd rather die in the field of battle than lay over and watch them slowly place the chains around me- ever tightening the noose around my neck, all the while smiling at me and telling me things will be fine. Eventually, you just sort of wake up from the slumber.

t.

[~candice~]

Ted, of course it's not preferable to see those liberties stripped away. And surprisingly enough, I do share your sentiments about the government ever encroaching on our liberties. I think they have chipped away slowly but surely and now own a fair chunk of our personal liberties. [i say this loosely because we have different goverments, but the same is seen in both.]

I would strip away all bare a few socialised services if I could. I just think I wouldn't peel back as far as you. We appear to have different ideas about what basic services a government should provide.

Compared to what the American utopia used to be, you can see a dramatic loss of freedom, but compared to others in today's age, you are living in utopia. Glass is half full if you want it to be.

God bless,

Andy

[ted]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm fat and happy, and full aware of the blessing of freedom I enjoy. I understand the suffering of millions in other lands, as I've seen it first hand many times over.

I just am finding it harder and harder to watch more and more people hand over their responsibilities and liberties over to a bunch of no-good, worthless piles of apple peels we have sitting in power these days. Through that looking glass, I'm seeing more and more how a state system is probably not what's best for mankind. It's always abused, and creates nothing but mindless blobs of whimpering, unthinking flesh that has no qualms about handing over their individual liberties over to people they've never met in exchange for services they barely get to use.

t.

[~candice~]

OK Ted. I'm fat and happy too! LOL

Busy at work, I'll pen a reply when I can steal a few minutes to put some genuine effort into it...