When Does the Antichrist Appear?

[Guest yod]

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[BlindSeeker]

I side with the with the understanding of the translators of the KJV . . .

That is really not a proof.

I side with the understanding of the writers and audience of what was translated into the KJV

[Bold Believer]

Who among us believe that he is in this world already???

Who believes that they know who he is?? or have an idea perhaps?

Just a question i wanted to put out there...

Martin Luther (1483-1546) (Lutheran): "Luther ... proved, by the revelations of Daniel and St. John, by the epistles of St. Paul, St. Peter, and St. Jude, that the reign of Antichrist, predicted and described in the Bible, was the Papacy ... And all the people did say, Amen! A holy terror siezed their souls. It was Antichrist whom they beheld seated o

[Bold Believer]

And many more.

Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Kaiser Wilhelm, every US president since Lincoln, Nero, Domitian, Abilard, George III, yada, yada...

So it looks like many in the history of the church believe the anti-christ to be a literal person, right? Could it be that they are right about that but guessed the wrong person?

That's a lot of theologians who believe The Man of Perdition and the Anti-Christ will be a person. I'm starting to rethink my position. So, you're saying that the man of perdition and the Anti-Christ won't be the same person or that all of these theologians don't know the bible as well as you do?

(I say that all the time, btw)

The idea that "The Antichrist" is a single individual who is to come in the future and that he can be named comes from reading Revelation literally rather than as a collection of allegories and symbols, as it was intended to be. That practice goes back to the Middle Ages, beginning roughly with Joaquim de Fiore, predating Darby by 1000 years. The early church fathers, however, understood Revelation to be allegorical in nature; Augustine went so far as to instruct his pupils to read it as such and forbade what he termed the "carnal" reading of the book, that is, literally.

Knowing that much, we can go back into the book and see that the term "The Antichrist" is never used by John. The individual he refers to by the cryptic phrase "The number of the beast is 666" is Caesar Nero.

Revelation is a REVEALING of what Christ told Jewish Believers concerning the fate of Jerusalem during His earthly ministry. It does use allegories and symbols which are already revealed in Scripture to tell certain parts of the story. The symbols and occasional allegory used can all be found, without exception that I can think of, in the Old Testament.

The Early Church Fathers made a terrible mistake in demanding the book be considered totally allegorical. The symbols are meant to describe the things that literally happened during the time of tribulation which came upon Israel.

An example: The church's flight to Pella is described as a great eagle taking her into the wilderness.

You are correct concerning 666 and Nero. Nero was the very personification of Rome at her height. After Nero killed himself, the Beast (Rome) never really recovered. His successors were all weaker than he politically. eventually Rome split into 10 Kingdoms and was Christianized. (Daniel prophesied that the beast would last a little longer. The key thing about Revelation is what it reveals: Christ is Victor.

[Rick-Parker]

How many threads are going to be started on this subject by the same people? No one's mind is going to be changed. You believe some theologians who interpret scripture the way you are comfortable with, and I believe some theologians who interpret scripture the way I and others are comfortable with.

[exrockstar]

How many threads are going to be started on this subject by the same people? No one's mind is going to be changed. You believe some theologians who interpret scripture the way you are comfortable with, and I believe some theologians who interpret scripture the way I and others are comfortable with.

the frustrating part is that you have 95% of people agreeing on what Revelations is then you have 5% (like you know who) that believe something else and does not contribute to the conversation. He hinders the topic. A good reson why i dont post in eschatology that much.

[lekh l'kha]

Why, if the antichrist is a spirit only, does the New Testament...

..... contrast Christ/antichrist consistently so:

One DESCENDS from the HIGHEST POSSIBLE PLACE - the throne of God in the highest heaven (Rev.19:11-21) and is called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords (1Tim.6:15; Rev.17:14, 19:16).

The other one ASCENDS from the LOWEST POSSIBLE PLACE - the bottomless pit, and is called the 8th king who is "of (the first seven) kings" (Rev.17:8-11) (the first seven kings who ruled over the first seven kingdoms or "heads" of the beast).

One is THE IMAGE OF GOD (Heb1:3).

The other one is said to be THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST who has breath (Rev.13:15 - GreeK pneuma = "breath").

Faith in and the worship of the One results in FORGIVENESS FOR SINS AND ETERNAL LIFE (Joh.3:16).

Faith in and the worship of the other one results in JUDGMENT FOR SINS AND ETERNAL CONDEMNATION (Rev.14:7, 9-12):

"... saying with a great voice, Fear God..." (whose image is Christ) ".. and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come. And worship Him who made the heaven and the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters...

... saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Here is the patience of the saints. Here are the ones who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Rev 14:7, 9-12).

The One comes WITH REAL POWER, WONDERS AND MIRACLES (all four gospels + the miracles, signs and wonders of His apostles).

The other one comes with "... the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned." (2Th 2:9-12).

The One is A KING

Are you telling me that the ultimate fulfilment of the other one will not also be a king?:

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those dwelling on the earth will marvel, those whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits. And there are seven kings; five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition...

... And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have received no kingdom yet, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast." (Rev 17:8-12)

"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise. And another shall arise after them. And he shall be different from the first, and he shall humble three kings.

And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and plot to change times and laws. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one-half time.

But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end. And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him. Here is the end of the matter.

As for me Daniel, my thoughts troubled me much, and my face changed on me. But I kept the matter in my heart." (Dan 7:24-28).

So why, if the antichrist is a spirit only, does the New Testament contrast Christ/antichrist consistently so?

[lekh l'kha]

The most glaring inconsistency of the rapture theory, is that the Antichrist will not appear until after the saints are caught away; seven years before the end of the world. Paul settles the entire matter for us in the first few verses of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of our gathering together unto Him] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin [Antichrist] be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (vs. 1-4).

The words of Paul are so plain that it is difficult to comment on them. How can they be plainer? Christ's coming will not take place "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed." Show these words to anyone not prejudiced by "private" interpretations, and he will say, "These verses say that the man of sin (Antichrist) is going to be revealed before Jesus comes."

Paul is not referring to some superman suddenly to appear 2,000 years after his epistles. He wrote, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (v. 7). While Paul lived, he combated the emerging spirit of the Antichrist. By the sixth century A.D., Antichrist had matured. The crowning act in the great drama of deception, however, occurs just before the return of Christ: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."' Verse 8. This clearly states that Antichrist will be destroyed when Christ comes. He does not arrive after the Second Advent.

And here's the crowning clarification in this whole thing. Revelation 20:4 assures us that some of those who are raised in the first resurrection will be those who refused to worship the beast and receive his mark! How completely this demolishes the futuristic school of prophetic interpretation is evident, for they claim that the emergence of the Antichrist and the imposition of his mark are to be looked for after the first resurrection and what they call the secret rapture.

The antichrist can only appear before the rapture, priest4him:

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near. So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors." (Mat 24:29-33).

I'm starting to become more and more aware that there is a strong possibility that the antichrist is the man whom the Muslims will point to and say, "There is Jesus come back" - the man who will claim to be Christ and who will tell Christians that "there is no god but allah and muhammad is his prophet". The Muslims believe in such a Christ - and the Muslims believe he and the Islamic Mahdi are both coming real soon.

The thing is about Christianity/Islam is that the Bible's antichrist = the Islamic Christ (in Islamic eschatology), and the Islamic antichrist (in Islamic eschatology) = the Bible's Christ.

Why does the New Testament contrast Christ/antichrist so?

Lekh

[EricH]

I side with the with the understanding of the translators of the KJV . . .

That is really not a proof.

I side with the understanding of the writers and audience of what was translated into the KJV

Everyone claims that

[priest4Him]

The most glaring inconsistency of the rapture theory, is that the Antichrist will not appear until after the saints are caught away; seven years before the end of the world. Paul settles the entire matter for us in the first few verses of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of our gathering together unto Him] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin [Antichrist] be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (vs. 1-4).

The words of Paul are so plain that it is difficult to comment on them. How can they be plainer? Christ's coming will not take place "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed." Show these words to anyone not prejudiced by "private" interpretations, and he will say, "These verses say that the man of sin (Antichrist) is going to be revealed before Jesus comes."

Paul is not referring to some superman suddenly to appear 2,000 years after his epistles. He wrote, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work" (v. 7). While Paul lived, he combated the emerging spirit of the Antichrist. By the sixth century A.D., Antichrist had matured. The crowning act in the great drama of deception, however, occurs just before the return of Christ: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."' Verse 8. This clearly states that Antichrist will be destroyed when Christ comes. He does not arrive after the Second Advent.

And here's the crowning clarification in this whole thing. Revelation 20:4 assures us that some of those who are raised in the first resurrection will be those who refused to worship the beast and receive his mark! How completely this demolishes the futuristic school of prophetic interpretation is evident, for they claim that the emergence of the Antichrist and the imposition of his mark are to be looked for after the first resurrection and what they call the secret rapture.

So he/she has been here since the 6th century AD, but has still not been revealed?

Not for everyone, many still blind to the truth and they want to remain like that (Who have eyes and see not, And who have ears and hear not) Jeremiah 5:21.

The truth is in the Bible, not in the imagination of people; The truth is in the word of God, not in movies, not in private interpretations.

The antichrist is not a person but a power; political/religious power. The word