The Beast - Nero

[lekh l'kha]

Lekh - PaulT and slipperypete are two different people.

Oops. Thanks, Traveller. Unfortunately there's no foot-in-mouth avatar here. My apologies to slipperyPete. I realize you were seriously debating from the point of view you are debating from, and I'm really sorry for giving you such a sarcastic reply (I thought you were PaulT, and PaulT doesn't seem to want to engage in serious discussion/debate).

[lekh l'kha]

The beast nation is Rome during the time of Jesus, that's how it was able to make war with the Lamb. The "Beast" character is Nero Casear himself.

The Number 666 is a historical numerology Herbrew geneology tracker. It was and still is in use these days. During the history of the Hebrew people they were taken numerous times into captivity and so not to loose their geneology they assigned every character in the Hebrew alphabet a number. These numbers were applied to peoples names.

Although a very needed preserver during it's times in captivity, this numerology is still used as a game in Israel.

The number 666 when calculated, literally spells out Nero Casear.

This is a matter of fact and not a matter of interpretation.

Therefore, it brings about a clearer understanding of who the characters are in revelation. The beast nation is Rome under the Beast Cesar.

That is why Daniel was told to seal the books and John the revelator was told to open them.

Hi SP. I think (IMO) you're correct but only partly correct. I think the Roman Empire fits the bill like you said, but I think there's also a final kingdom which will rule the world immediately before the return of Christ, and I think 666 refers to more than one "antichrist". It may be coincidence, but there's at least one Islamic website which teaches that 666 is a holy number, that Satan tricked the world into having it inserted into the Christian Bible as an evil mark, and that this number 666 is the mark of Islam and the Qur'an, and it cites a number of interesting gematria calculations surrounding the Qur'anic verses - for example: According to them, the Arabic letters for "in the name of Allah" = 666, there are 6,666 verses in the Qur'an, etc.

Personally, I don't believe anything about the number 666 - but I am open to a number of possibilities.

The bottom line of my argument against your position though, is that I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ transcends time and cannot be put into a box marked "A.D 70 to A.D400/500", and though the prophecies it contains might have been fulfilled, as you say, in a particular time-period, the wheel goes round and comes back again.

Lekh.

[SlipperyPete]

This is an interesting classification of the Book of Revelation. It doesn

[SlipperyPete]

I think the Roman Empire fits the bill like you said, but I think there's also a final kingdom which will rule the world immediately before the return of Christ, and I think 666 refers to more than one "antichrist".

There is no "final kingdom" That was the Jews problem also. Even the apostles asked Jesus about when He would set up His physical kingdom and Jesus told them His kingdom was not of this world. They expected it, just as you do, but Jesus himself denys it. They thought of a physical kingdom, God had givent them a physical kingdom, the was Israel, through David. Then that was done away with and now it's a Kingdom through spirit...

"If anyone tells you that it is here or there, don't go out after it supposing it will be there for it is not. For the kingdom of heaven is in you."

[lekh l'kha]

I think the Roman Empire fits the bill like you said, but I think there's also a final kingdom which will rule the world immediately before the return of Christ, and I think 666 refers to more than one "antichrist".

There is no "final kingdom" That was the Jews problem also. Even the apostles asked Jesus about when He would set up His physical kingdom and Jesus told them His kingdom was not of this world. They expected it, just as you do, but Jesus himself denys it. They thought of a physical kingdom, God had givent them a physical kingdom, the was Israel, through David. Then that was done away with and now it's a Kingdom through spirit...

"If anyone tells you that it is here or there, don't go out after it supposing it will be there for it is not. For the kingdom of heaven is in you."

Aah, but you see, you ignore all the facts and verses which show that interpreting the Kingdom only in accordance with the verses you quoted, while ignoring all the Lord's other statements about the kingdom (as well as the statements of His apostles), leads you to the conclusion that 1+1=3.

Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not NOW (Greek: "nun", meaning, "of present time") of this world.

Here's an exercise for you:

Go look for all the verses in the New Testament containing the word "until", and read them thoroughly. Then read what Rev.11:15 says about the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of Christ when the seventh trumpet sounds, and compare it with what Jesus said about His kingdom being not NOW (Greek: "nun", meaning "of present time") of this world.

Do the same thing regarding what was said about the Jerusalem of the present time ("the Jerusalem which NOW is": Greek: "nun", meaning "of present time") being in bondage (in this present time) with her children - compare it with the word UNTIL which Jesus uttered about Jerusalem in Mat.23:39 and 37-39.

First law of Hermeneutics: Don't isolate certain passages of scripture and insert a meaning to them without first studying what the rest of scripture has to say about the same subject.

Pretend you're in a classroom kind of debate-competition situation and the teacher has assigned to you the task of debating in favor of a coming literal kingdom of Christ in this world in a literal millennium - and go and look for and study all the scriptures that you find in order to prove the position the teacher assigned you to debate in favor of.

It's called "lateral thinking".

You will be amazed when you thought you saw a picture of two faces (of people facing one another) and you suddenly realize it was also two glass vases standing next to one another.

[SlipperyPete]

Aah, but you see, you ignore all the facts and verses which show that interpreting the Kingdom only in accordance with the verses you quoted, while ignoring all the Lord's other statements about the kingdom (as well as the statements of His apostles), leads you to the conclusion that 1+1=3.

Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not NOW (Greek: "nun", meaning, "of present time") of this world.

Here's an exercise for you:

Go look for all the verses in the New Testament containing the word "until", and read them thoroughly. Then read what Rev.11:15 says about the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of Christ when the seventh trumpet sounds, and compare it with what Jesus said about His kingdom being not NOW (Greek: "nun", meaning "of present time") of this world.

Do the same thing regarding what was said about the Jerusalem of the present time ("the Jerusalem which NOW is": Greek: "nun", meaning "of present time") being in bondage (in this present time) with her children - compare it with the word UNTIL which Jesus uttered about Jerusalem in Mat.23:39 and 37-39.

First law of Hermeneutics: Don't isolate certain passages of scripture and insert a meaning to them without first studying what the rest of scripture has to say about the same subject.

Pretend you're in a classroom kind of debate-competition situation and the teacher has assigned to you the task of debating in favor of a coming literal kingdom of Christ in this world in a literal millennium - and go and look for and study all the scriptures that you find in order to prove the position the teacher assigned you to debate in favor of.

It's called "lateral thinking".

You will be amazed when you thought you saw a picture of two faces (of people facing one another) and you suddenly realize it was also two glass vases standing next to one another.

I think it's funnny that you think I haven't studdied this out and have simply chosen to grasp at a few random scriptures. I simply supplied a couple of scriptures. I'm not going to pour out a huge study for you. If I spend the next two hours typing a great explanation you would just skim it and not agree with it anyway. I have learned going through many different boards that's all people seem to be interested in.

I'm not new to online conversation, just new to this site. You're not interestd in hearing what I have to say, you're interested in telling me why I'm wrong. I'm interested in healthy debate not condesending retohric.

Hope I'm wrong about you though.

I have spent a great deal researching the scriptures and there is no doubt that the kingdom of Christ has been established completely. The idea that He went away for a couple thousand years just to come back and re-finsih something He already accomplished is unbiblical and not the best show of a well thought out plan.

The book of revelation is about the Jews and the end to thier covenant with God, and it addresses the new covenant established. That's why the pictures and language are all about the Romans and Ceasar and the Jews and a history of thier people. It is also why it doesn't say anything about America, Russia or even Europe.

No, the beast and false prophet and anti-christ are not for us....they were all delt with within the 40 year generation after the ascension of Christ and the Parousia...just as was prophesied and promised.

[e lansing]

Aah, but you see, you ignore all the facts and verses which show that interpreting the Kingdom only in accordance with the verses you quoted, while ignoring all the Lord's other statements about the kingdom (as well as the statements of His apostles), leads you to the conclusion that 1+1=3.

Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not NOW (Greek: "nun", meaning, "of present time") of this world.

Here's an exercise for you:

Go look for all the verses in the New Testament containing the word "until", and read them thoroughly. Then read what Rev.11:15 says about the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of Christ when the seventh trumpet sounds, and compare it with what Jesus said about His kingdom being not NOW (Greek: "nun", meaning "of present time") of this world.

Do the same thing regarding what was said about the Jerusalem of the present time ("the Jerusalem which NOW is": Greek: "nun", meaning "of present time") being in bondage (in this present time) with her children - compare it with the word UNTIL which Jesus uttered about Jerusalem in Mat.23:39 and 37-39.

First law of Hermeneutics: Don't isolate certain passages of scripture and insert a meaning to them without first studying what the rest of scripture has to say about the same subject.

Pretend you're in a classroom kind of debate-competition situation and the teacher has assigned to you the task of debating in favor of a coming literal kingdom of Christ in this world in a literal millennium - and go and look for and study all the scriptures that you find in order to prove the position the teacher assigned you to debate in favor of.

It's called "lateral thinking".

You will be amazed when you thought you saw a picture of two faces (of people facing one another) and you suddenly realize it was also two glass vases standing next to one another.

I think it's funnny that you think I haven't studdied this out and have simply chosen to grasp at a few random scriptures. I simply supplied a couple of scriptures. I'm not going to pour out a huge study for you. If I spend the next two hours typing a great explanation you would just skim it and not agree with it anyway. I have learned going through many different boards that's all people seem to be interested in.

I'm not new to online conversation, just new to this site. You're not interestd in hearing what I have to say, you're interested in telling me why I'm wrong. I'm interested in healthy debate not condesending retohric.

Hope I'm wrong about you though.

I have spent a great deal researching the scriptures and there is no doubt that the kingdom of Christ has been established completely. The idea that He went away for a couple thousand years just to come back and re-finsih something He already accomplished is unbiblical and not the best show of a well thought out plan.

The book of revelation is about the Jews and the end to thier covenant with God, and it addresses the new covenant established. That's why the pictures and language are all about the Romans and Ceasar and the Jews and a history of thier people. It is also why it doesn't say anything about America, Russia or even Europe.

No, the beast and false prophet and anti-christ are not for us....they were all delt with within the 40 year generation after the ascension of Christ and the Parousia...just as was prophesied and promised.

Hay slip,

What do you call your eschatology?

e

[SlipperyPete]

Hay slip,

What do you call your eschatology?

I talked to a friend about it once and the best we came up with was "progressive inclusionism."

I honestly think there is no "ONE" doctrinal source that has nailed it completley, they all seem to lack some fullness to the whole picture.

I don't hold any type of futurist slant, although I do believe because of the finished work of the cross the effect of it is changing what we call earth. Like a car wreck, even though it happened, the result of what happened continues on, effecting what comes after.

Hope that answers your question?

[Bold Believer]

This is an interesting classification of the Book of Revelation. It doesn

[Bold Believer]

Hay slip,

What do you call your eschatology?

I talked to a friend about it once and the best we came up with was "progressive inclusionism."

I honestly think there is no "ONE" doctrinal source that has nailed it completley, they all seem to lack some fullness to the whole picture.

I don't hold any type of futurist slant, although I do believe because of the finished work of the cross the effect of it is changing what we call earth. Like a car wreck, even though it happened, the result of what happened continues on, effecting what comes after.

Hope that answers your question?

Pete's eschatology is not unlike mine. I bet he's a Last Day Adventist too.