The Beast - Nero

[lekh l'kha]

[quote

I have the late brother Chilton's Paradise Restored and his simple Pamphlet, The Great Tribulation, AND his eschatological piece Days of Vengeance.

The mark of the Beast is the antithesis of Deuteronomy 6:8 in which the word of God is to be placed on the hand and forehead of the Believer.

(It's about time you sent me reinforcements LORD )

I thought you were going to be happy about this, BB!! It's about time you had someone on your side for a change - if even they are just dead wrong

[lekh l'kha]

I think it's funnny that you think I haven't studdied this out and have simply chosen to grasp at a few random scriptures. I simply supplied a couple of scriptures. I'm not going to pour out a huge study for you. If I spend the next two hours typing a great explanation you would just skim it and not agree with it anyway. I have learned going through many different boards that's all people seem to be interested in.

Hi SP,

I also think it's funnny that you think I haven't studdied this out and have simply chosen to grasp at a few random scriptures. I'm also not going to pour out a huge study for you. Just like you, if I spend the next two hours typing a great explanation you would just skim it and not agree with it anyway. And like you, I have learned going through many different boards that's all people seem to be interested in.

I also find that the moment that people (anyone - like you, me or anyone else) has a certain interpretation of certain things, then you, me and everyone else (yes- it includes you) are not interested in hearing what anyone else has to say, you're interested in telling them why they are wrong. Like you, I'm more interested in healthy debate, not condescending rhetoric - but I find that people who accuse others of using "condescending rhetoric" are normally doing that themselves and then conveniently accusing others of doing it to them.

I hope I'm right about you when I say that I think you seem to be the kind of guy who is humble enough to accept that he could be wrong about anything he says or believes regarding his interpretation and understanding of the things written about in the Bible, except when he says that God is right about everything HE says.

I hope you saw my apology about the sarcastic reply I gave you the first time I answered your post - I meant it. I am sorry. Quite often in the past, a guy has joined worthy - under two different names, and then got his two personalities to support his own argument - and for a short while I thought you and PaulT were one and the same person (and at the time PaulT was only interested in playing games and trying to show off his intellectual intelligence. He became more serious subsequent to that though).

Anyway, don't know how much time I'll have to come back here and argue against the position you put forward here, so I might and might not be back for a while - but if I come back to answer one of your statements in one of your posts - be sure that IF I feel that your position is wrong, I will argue against it.

God bless,

Lekh.

[SlipperyPete]

I also find that the moment that people (anyone - like you, me or anyone else) has a certain interpretation of certain things, then you, me and everyone else (yes- it includes you) are not interested in hearing what anyone else has to say, you're interested in telling them why they are wrong. Like you, I'm more interested in healthy debate, not condescending rhetoric - but I find that people who accuse others of using "condescending rhetoric" are normally doing that themselves and then conveniently accusing others of doing it to them.

hope I'm right about you when I say that I think you seem to be the kind of guy who is humble enough to accept that he could be wrong about anything he says or believes regarding his interpretation and understanding of the things written about in the Bible, except when he says that God is right about everything HE says.

I live by the moto, "You need to be willing to be wrong." I have no problem listening, however, like you put I have "Come to understand" through research and experience, therefore what someone puts forth needs to merit my time. I don't think that's out of the realm of reason.

I have come from a few sites were it gets down right personal.

As far as you saying;

I also think it's funnny that you think I haven't studdied this out

I never suggested that you hadn't.

However the language you used seemed quite condescending.

This will be the last I mention of this, because I don't typically waste my time about these things however I am new to this site.

Hopefully we can, even as people seeing things differently, get along and have some good interesting debates.

Peace from Him to Us.

[lekh l'kha]

I also find that the moment that people (anyone - like you, me or anyone else) has a certain interpretation of certain things, then you, me and everyone else (yes- it includes you) are not interested in hearing what anyone else has to say, you're interested in telling them why they are wrong. Like you, I'm more interested in healthy debate, not condescending rhetoric - but I find that people who accuse others of using "condescending rhetoric" are normally doing that themselves and then conveniently accusing others of doing it to them.

hope I'm right about you when I say that I think you seem to be the kind of guy who is humble enough to accept that he could be wrong about anything he says or believes regarding his interpretation and understanding of the things written about in the Bible, except when he says that God is right about everything HE says.

I live by the moto, "You need to be willing to be wrong." I have no problem listening, however, like you put I have "Come to understand" through research and experience, therefore what someone puts forth needs to merit my time. I don't think that's out of the realm of reason.

I have come from a few sites were it gets down right personal.

As far as you saying;

I also think it's funnny that you think I haven't studdied this out

I never suggested that you hadn't.

However the language you used seemed quite condescending.

This will be the last I mention of this, because I don't typically waste my time about these things however I am new to this site.

Hopefully we can, even as people seeing things differently, get along and have some good interesting debates.

Peace from Him to Us.

I can see where your heart lies. You're welcome at Worthy, and that goes without saying - not because I say so (and mean it) - but because Worthy belongs to all Christians and is run by the good people who started it, and the Mods. At the end of the day there's complete unity between you and me because there is only one Holy Spirit who lives in both of us and He is the Spirit of truth. Trouble is, the illumination of the Holy Spirit of the Word of God has to pass through the filter of our minds, with all our preconceived ideas and beliefs - no matter who we are - because we all see as in a mirror, but dimly - because the mirror's image gets distorted by our own concepts.

So while we might agree on a number of things, I might strongly disagree with you on a number of things (and I can see that I do), but I can see you're not arrogant, and so there won't be any reason why we won't be able to disagree agreeably. I strongly disagree with some people here who share your views about the Kingdom of Christ, the millennium etc, but I have a great deal of respect for them - like Bold Believer, for example. Why? Because it's obvious where his heart lies. So God bless you. By the way, "to the arrogant I appear arrogant" - it's a way of not allowing them to bully me. You've been around at various forums so you will know what I mean when I say that some Christians have an incredibly intelligent but extremely subtle way of making others look like they're stupid, and of gaining a "me clever, you stupid" hold over people - even though their arguments and point of view may be entirely wrong. I don't deal with everyone in the same way - I pay close attention to their tactics, and then I steal their own weapons that they use to slay others with out of their hands and use the same weapons to slay them.

[SlipperyPete]

I also find that the moment that people (anyone - like you, me or anyone else) has a certain interpretation of certain things, then you, me and everyone else (yes- it includes you) are not interested in hearing what anyone else has to say, you're interested in telling them why they are wrong. Like you, I'm more interested in healthy debate, not condescending rhetoric - but I find that people who accuse others of using "condescending rhetoric" are normally doing that themselves and then conveniently accusing others of doing it to them.

hope I'm right about you when I say that I think you seem to be the kind of guy who is humble enough to accept that he could be wrong about anything he says or believes regarding his interpretation and understanding of the things written about in the Bible, except when he says that God is right about everything HE says.

I live by the moto, "You need to be willing to be wrong." I have no problem listening, however, like you put I have "Come to understand" through research and experience, therefore what someone puts forth needs to merit my time. I don't think that's out of the realm of reason.

I have come from a few sites were it gets down right personal.

As far as you saying;

I also think it's funnny that you think I haven't studdied this out

I never suggested that you hadn't.

However the language you used seemed quite condescending.

This will be the last I mention of this, because I don't typically waste my time about these things however I am new to this site.

Hopefully we can, even as people seeing things differently, get along and have some good interesting debates.

Peace from Him to Us.

I can see where your heart lies. You're welcome at Worthy, and that goes without saying - not because I say so (and mean it) - but because Worthy belongs to all Christians and is run by the good people who started it, and the Mods. At the end of the day there's complete unity between you and me because there is only one Holy Spirit who lives in both of us and He is the Spirit of truth. Trouble is, the illumination of the Holy Spirit of the Word of God has to pass through the filter of our minds, with all our preconceived ideas and beliefs - no matter who we are - because we all see as in a mirror, but dimly - because the mirror's image gets distorted by our own concepts.

So while we might agree on a number of things, I might strongly disagree with you on a number of things (and I can see that I do), but I can see you're not arrogant, and so there won't be any reason why we won't be able to disagree agreeably. I strongly disagree with some people here who share your views about the Kingdom of Christ, the millennium etc, but I have a great deal of respect for them - like Bold Believer, for example. Why? Because it's obvious where his heart lies. So God bless you. By the way, "to the arrogant I appear arrogant" - it's a way of not allowing them to bully me. You've been around at various forums so you will know what I mean when I say that some Christians have an incredibly intelligent but extremely subtle way of making others look like they're stupid, and of gaining a "me clever, you stupid" hold over people - even though their arguments and point of view may be entirely wrong. I don't deal with everyone in the same way - I pay close attention to their tactics, and then I steal their own weapons that they use to slay others with out of their hands and use the same weapons to slay them.

Sounds good to me, I will look forward to telling you why you're wrong

[lekh l'kha]

Sounds good to me, I will look forward to telling you why you're wrong

You never know, maybe we'll both learn something from one another along the way

I'll be back to this thread sometime maybe to take it up from the OP again. Just don't know when yet, but when I have a break I'll come back to this thread before I go anywhere else. It'll keep you very very busy - and me. I have a feeling we've both been around this block a few times.

[SlipperyPete]

Sounds good to me, I will look forward to telling you why you're wrong

You never know, maybe we'll both learn something from one another along the way

I'll be back to this thread sometime maybe to take it up from the OP again. Just don't know when yet, but when I have a break I'll come back to this thread before I go anywhere else. It'll keep you very very busy - and me. I have a feeling we've both been around this block a few times.

[Joshua-777]

Aah, but you see, you ignore all the facts and verses which show that interpreting the Kingdom only in accordance with the verses you quoted, while ignoring all the Lord's other statements about the kingdom (as well as the statements of His apostles), leads you to the conclusion that 1+1=3.

Jesus said, "My Kingdom is not NOW (Greek: "nun", meaning, "of present time") of this world.

Here's an exercise for you:

Go look for all the verses in the New Testament containing the word "until", and read them thoroughly. Then read what Rev.11:15 says about the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of Christ when the seventh trumpet sounds, and compare it with what Jesus said about His kingdom being not NOW (Greek: "nun", meaning "of present time") of this world.

Do the same thing regarding what was said about the Jerusalem of the present time ("the Jerusalem which NOW is": Greek: "nun", meaning "of present time") being in bondage (in this present time) with her children - compare it with the word UNTIL which Jesus uttered about Jerusalem in Mat.23:39 and 37-39.

First law of Hermeneutics: Don't isolate certain passages of scripture and insert a meaning to them without first studying what the rest of scripture has to say about the same subject.

Pretend you're in a classroom kind of debate-competition situation and the teacher has assigned to you the task of debating in favor of a coming literal kingdom of Christ in this world in a literal millennium - and go and look for and study all the scriptures that you find in order to prove the position the teacher assigned you to debate in favor of.

It's called "lateral thinking".

You will be amazed when you thought you saw a picture of two faces (of people facing one another) and you suddenly realize it was also two glass vases standing next to one another.

I think it's funnny that you think I haven't studdied this out and have simply chosen to grasp at a few random scriptures. I simply supplied a couple of scriptures. I'm not going to pour out a huge study for you. If I spend the next two hours typing a great explanation you would just skim it and not agree with it anyway. I have learned going through many different boards that's all people seem to be interested in.

I'm not new to online conversation, just new to this site. You're not interestd in hearing what I have to say, you're interested in telling me why I'm wrong. I'm interested in healthy debate not condesending retohric.

Hope I'm wrong about you though.

I have spent a great deal researching the scriptures and there is no doubt that the kingdom of Christ has been established completely. The idea that He went away for a couple thousand years just to come back and re-finsih something He already accomplished is unbiblical and not the best show of a well thought out plan.

The book of revelation is about the Jews and the end to thier covenant with God, and it addresses the new covenant established. That's why the pictures and language are all about the Romans and Ceasar and the Jews and a history of thier people. It is also why it doesn't say anything about America, Russia or even Europe.

No, the beast and false prophet and anti-christ are not for us....they were all delt with within the 40 year generation after the ascension of Christ and the Parousia...just as was prophesied and promised.

The millennial kingdom is going to be Christ reigning on earth. Not the kingdom of Christ, cause we're living in the kingdom right now. He is going to create a new Jerusalem, to say this has already happened you would be ignoring scripture.

Now lets direct this towards scripture.

The Rider of the white horse is Yeshua.

Revelation 19:13

13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,[f] followed Him on white horses

Revelation 19:19

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Here's a key point that must happen before the millennial kingdom, the beast and the kings of the earth, and their armies are going to make war against the Lamb.

Now this is the Millennial kingdom, Christ is going to reign with us for a thousand years on earth.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Now what's going on here we get another picture in Zechariah 14, but I'm going to go past the war against the lamb, mentioned in vs 12-15 and go straight to the millennial kingdom.

Zechariah 14:16-21

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

20 In that day

[Joshua-777]

The beast nation is Rome during the time of Jesus, that's how it was able to make war with the Lamb. The "Beast" character is Nero Casear himself.

The Number 666 is a historical numerology Herbrew geneology tracker. It was and still is in use these days. During the history of the Hebrew people they were taken numerous times into captivity and so not to loose their geneology they assigned every character in the Hebrew alphabet a number. These numbers were applied to peoples names.

Although a very needed preserver during it's times in captivity, this numerology is still used as a game in Israel.

The number 666 when calculated, literally spells out Nero Casear.

This is a matter of fact and not a matter of interpretation.

Therefore, it brings about a clearer understanding of who the characters are in revelation. The beast nation is Rome under the Beast Cesar.

That is why Daniel was told to seal the books and John the revelator was told to open them.

Hi SP. I think (IMO) you're correct but only partly correct. I think the Roman Empire fits the bill like you said, but I think there's also a final kingdom which will rule the world immediately before the return of Christ, and I think 666 refers to more than one "antichrist". It may be coincidence, but there's at least one Islamic website which teaches that 666 is a holy number, that Satan tricked the world into having it inserted into the Christian Bible as an evil mark, and that this number 666 is the mark of Islam and the Qur'an, and it cites a number of interesting gematria calculations surrounding the Qur'anic verses - for example: According to them, the Arabic letters for "in the name of Allah" = 666, there are 6,666 verses in the Qur'an, etc.

Personally, I don't believe anything about the number 666 - but I am open to a number of possibilities.

The bottom line of my argument against your position though, is that I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ transcends time and cannot be put into a box marked "A.D 70 to A.D400/500", and though the prophecies it contains might have been fulfilled, as you say, in a particular time-period, the wheel goes round and comes back again.

Lekh.

Check out Walid Shoebat, You an find some of his conferences on youtube, He's got some interesting stuff to say on the mark of the beast.

[Guest]

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews 11:8-10

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:48-51

>>>>>()<<<<<

....There is no "final kingdom" That was the Jews problem also. Even the apostles asked Jesus about when He would set up His physical kingdom and Jesus told them His kingdom was not of this world. They expected it, just as you do, but Jesus himself denys it. They thought of a physical kingdom, God had givent them a physical kingdom, the was Israel, through David. Then that was done away with and now it's a Kingdom through spirit...

"If anyone tells you that it is here or there, don't go out after it supposing it will be there for it is not. For the kingdom of heaven is in you."...

Well

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:11

There You Go Again

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3

Subtracting From The Clear And Holy Words Of God

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:1-2

Whatever Reason Would One Give To Clive

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15

To This Condemned Cosmos

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:3-7

>>>>>()<<<<<

Believe

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26

And Be Blessed Beloved

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Love, Joe

Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes. Psalms 119:155