A Moral Debate: Why Capitalism is Best for America

[enoob57]

Enoob - do you generate an income for yourself?

I live an amazing life now, I generate income for what ever the Lord wants to do with it! My life is filled with things of Him. It is no joke that if we empty ourselves He will fill us with eternal things! I live in my Church "Independent Baptist" I serve the building needs and the families needs and God cares for me in my needs. I own only tools that allow me to serve with the gifts God has given me and my God given joy is known though out the town. I believe my wealth is this- I could not use it to purchase anything in this world but I could sit in a desert dying of thirst and hunger and be happy and expectant of the place I really wish to be! Love Steven

[enoob57]

What I find simply amazing is that as Christians we abhor control because it smacks of Religion, but when it comes to the Government we embrace it as a system of equality.

Capitalism is the only system where Liberty determines the course of mans charitable giving and it works.

peace,

dave

My oh my a thread about capitalism and I've only just found it?

Define 'it works'? What works? Are you applying that only to the economic market, or extending it beyond to a national level (including, my favourite topic, the welfare of the genuinely needy)?

Honest question Dave! Because capitalism, through it's reliance only on the forces of demand and supply, can maximise potential wealth for individuals. But this alone doesn't make a system 'work'.

Capitalism only 'works' in an economic sense for those who are able to participate in it.

The problem with it, IMHO, is that it in no way takes into account the dark hardened greedy heart of man.

That is what I have been trying to tell Neb- your a good orator or at least a writer for one

[nebula]

Enoob - do you generate an income for yourself?

I live an amazing life now, I generate income for what ever the Lord wants to do with it! My life is filled with things of Him. It is no joke that if we empty ourselves He will fill us with eternal things! I live in my Church "Independent Baptist" I serve the building needs and the families needs and God cares for me in my needs. I own only tools that allow me to serve with the gifts God has given me and my God given joy is known though out the town. I believe my wealth is this- I could not use it to purchase anything in this world but I could sit in a desert dying of thirst and hunger and be happy and expectant of the place I really wish to be! Love Steven

(1)

That's great . . . but most of us have rent or a home to pay for.

And we have to buy our own food and clothes. Even thrift shop clothes require purchasing money.

And then there's the car - payment, gas, repairs.

(2)

Who is paying for your ability to live at the church? Who is paying for your needs?

(3)

If a missionary needs money (travel, Bibles, giving something to the community (s)he is ministering to, etc.), how are they supposed to get money if no one is supposed to be generating an income?

[nebula]

Oh..so the OP is only about wealth creation.My bad.Of course capitalism wins hands down.

Are you currently generating an income for yourself?

Yes I work and get paid.

Is that a sin to be accumulating money for yourself? To purchase things for yourself with your money (even "wise" spending)?

[Matthitjah]

Bless you sis,

You finally found this one.

The problem with it, IMHO, is that it in no way takes into account the dark hardened greedy heart of man.

Actually, it operates on that principle.

The founders of this Nation understood this.

The problem of the indigent isn't really with Liberty but with Socialism.

Honest question Dave! Because capitalism, through it's reliance only on the forces of demand and supply, can maximise potential wealth for individuals. But this alone doesn't make a system 'work'.

It does though because a rising tide lifts all boats.

Yes, there are greedy folks in a Capitalist society, but there are also folks who have a heart after God and are humble. There are all manner of people in any given society, even the Socialist one. There are greedy folks in Socialism. The problem there is that the Government decides the winners based upon ideology. I'd rather have God decide who the winners are and where their hearts are concerned. Haven't you heard that the wealth of the wicked is being stored up for the Righteous? Suppose a wicked wealthy man lives his whole life in the here and now and accumulates mass wealth, but has no heir. Yet there is a lowly old humble maid who takes care of his every need in the later stages of his life. God moves the mans heart to leave his vast wealth to her despite his dying in sin. She then Glorifies God with the wealth of the wicked. It happens all the time when we Trust God to be God. In Socialism we trust the Government to be God. God is God even over Greed and Avarice and He uses it for His Good Pleasure.

However, Liberty thrives in only one system. It may not be perfect and some may not take advantage of it's benefits while others take great advantage. It affords each man Liberty and the right to pursue happiness. Happiness for some is living in park off the charity of others. It may not be Righteous, but that is between the individual and God.

The truly indigent have afforded to them the benefit of a truly prosperous society as a blessng. Believe me, if you are in need in MD I can take you somewhere within 30 minutes of here and your needs will be met, abundently. The Government will provide for you. Yet, I don't ever want the Government providing for me because there are strings attached and the Founding Fathers of this Nation understood this and it's why they talked of seperation of Church and State. They didn't want a State run Religion because the evils of unlimited Government far outweighed the evils of the individuals wicked heart. They simply trusted God.

peace,

dave

[enoob57]

(1)

That's great . . . but most of us have rent or a home to pay for.

And we have to buy our own food and clothes. Even thrift shop clothes require purchasing money.

And then there's the car - payment, gas, repairs.

Now you understand the whole capitalism thing I want - I work - I need... now where do I put God in all this? When in fact it should be Father what do I do with all this! For isn't first "first"?

After all if we put God first- then our last of life here - will be putting God first as well and so shall we ever be with the Lord!

This is a sealed eternity there is no room for the world in this! Only for His Word and the lives of those who yield unto it!

(2)Who is paying for your ability to live at the church? Who is paying for your needs?

I work as a janitor, electrician, plumber, painter, construction a-z, Sunday school teacher, outreach minister I am paid enough. The people I serve puts in the offering what they can afford unto God for His Glory. When you reduce in your life to this

Isa 55:2-3

2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,

And your wages for what does not satisfy?

Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,

And let your soul delight itself in abundance.

3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.

Hear, and your soul shall live;

And I will make an everlasting covenant with you

NKJV

There is away that seems right to man but it is not this above nor below, but examine this The Exodus 1,000,000 plus in a desert can testify of God's keeping and then go to the Temptation of Christ also in a desert to the point of starving! note- He would rather die than to go outside of His Fathers will and His Word. Yet when He remained steadfast the command for satan to leave and angels fed and cared for Him. We are as precious to The Father, The Son and Spirit as this as well Neb! Did you think your faith would not be tested? What of the day that comes for those to take the worlds unified mark of ability to work and trade and live "mark of the beast"?

1 Peter 4:12-16

12 Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

NKJV

(3)

If a missionary needs money (travel, Bibles, giving something to the community (s)he is ministering to, etc.), how are they supposed to get money if no one is supposed to be generating an income?

We are to give ourselves to God and He will direct us where ever when ever this becomes evident that we do need to do this! Most of us seem to be greatly effected by this

John 3:5-8

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

NKJV

Tomorrow if The Lord would indicate to me to go less than a day I would be on my way with the knowledge I may never be back in this place again!

Neb your not saying we must be subservient to the world to serve Christ? Isn't this the miracle of God that we can take that which is set aside for the fire of destruction and turn it into eternal things? Eternal things which are only two- His Word and the lives created by God! When we keep unto ourselves, that which we work for, it will only rot but invest it in this what I have spoken of above then eternal things will spring out! Our bodies do not go with us why do we spend so much on them? So also our dwellings, so also .....

This is the sorrow of capitalism not with its center God

Matt 19:21-26

21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"

26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

NKJV

You are a smart person I have observed this in you! I also know the convicting power that is in all this (the struggle)! Neb do not resist God take little steps toward this truth and see the encouraging God will do unto you! It will be a deepening of the truth you already know and want. So that in all you do you do it unto God! Love Steven

[nebula]

Is that a sin to be accumulating money for yourself? To purchase things for yourself with your money (even "wise" spending)?

Sin? Avarice is a sin yes. Working to supply need is not. There is a big fat line between need and want though eh.

So is it a sin to purchase wants? Like an Australian t-shirt....

[nebula]

Now you understand the whole capitalism thing I want - I work - I need... now where do I put God in all this?

Where is God in any other form of economic system? This really is a bizarre argument you are forming.

When in fact it should be Father what do I do with all this! For isn't first "first"?

After all if we put God first- then our last of life here - will be putting God first as well and so shall we ever be with the Lord!

This is a sealed eternity there is no room for the world in this! Only for His Word and the lives of those who yield unto it!

And we all need to ask that question and keep this in mind no matter what economic system we live under, do we not?

(2)Who is paying for your ability to live at the church? Who is paying for your needs?

I work as a janitor, electrician, plumber, painter, construction a-z, Sunday school teacher, outreach minister I am paid enough. The people I serve puts in the offering what they can afford unto God for His Glory.

So, you are paid by the church, which receives money from offerings?

What if everyone in the congregation worked for the church as you do?

(3)

If a missionary needs money (travel, Bibles, giving something to the community (s)he is ministering to, etc.), how are they supposed to get money if no one is supposed to be generating an income?

We are to give ourselves to God and He will direct us where ever when ever this becomes evident that we do need to do this! Most of us seem to be greatly effected by this

John 3:5-8

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

NKJV

Tomorrow if The Lord would indicate to me to go less than a day I would be on my way with the knowledge I may never be back in this place again!

Neb your not saying we must be subservient to the world to serve Christ?

Remember Lydia in Acts? Did she not have a profession?

Did not Paul have a profession that he once in a while used to supply his needs rather than to burden the church of the city with his needs?

And BTW, if you study the culture of Israel in the time of the New Testaments, rabbis never quit their day jobs in order to be rabbis. Think about that.

[Matthitjah]

Is that a sin to be accumulating money for yourself? To purchase things for yourself with your money (even "wise" spending)?

Sin? Avarice is a sin yes. Working to supply need is not. There is a big fat line between need and want though eh.

So is it a sin to purchase wants? Like an Australian t-shirt....

The big fat line is the grey area between supplying ourselves and storing up wealth.^^

Avarice

AV'ARICE, n. [L. avaritia, from avarus, from aveo, to covet.]

An inordinate desire of gaining and possessing wealth; covetousness; greediness or insatiable desire of gain.

Avarice sheds a blasting influence over the finest affections and sweetest comforts of mankind.

It is not a sin to purchase wants as long as your greed is in check eh.

Do you think supplying the needs of others takes precedent over possessions?

Btw..Is giving gifts supplying my wants?I did not realize I was so selfish

(assuming is a bad thing eh )

agua,

How do you feel about God granting Soloman vast riches? How do you feel about Solomon subsequently using them to do things against Gods Word? Did God grant Solomon more than his heart desired and more than met his needs?

Here's what the Bible say's about Solomon's wealth;

1Ki

[enoob57]

Now you understand the whole capitalism thing I want - I work - I need... now where do I put God in all this? Where is God in any other form of economic system? This really is a bizarre argument you are forming.

No argument Neb! Were just not connecting in our thoughts and direction. I am not a very good communicator!

(2)Who is paying for your ability to live at the church? Who is paying for your needs?

I work as a janitor, electrician, plumber, painter, construction a-z, Sunday school teacher, outreach minister I am paid enough. The people I serve puts in the offering what they can afford unto God for His Glory.

So, you are paid by the church, which receives money from offerings?

What if everyone in the congregation worked for the church as you do?

The Church would be rich!!!

I think you misunderstand 3 days I work for the Church Janitor and all needs, 3 days I do for the people of the church in their homes whatever and they put in the offering what would have been my wage (except I leave what wage amount to them) I am an honorable veteran USMC takes care of medical so I think little of money and things it is a blessing to me! I am able to keep my mind stayed upon the Lord most of the time! I praise God for His grace in my life!

Love Steven