Nearness of the Rapture

[Bible2]

wyguy said:

What an anxious life you must live

Christians needn't be anxious if they do 1 John 1:9 and don't do Hebrews 10:26-29.

wyguy said:

It must be a terrible sight to see when you sin....

It should look like Luke 18:13-14 after Christians sin.

wyguy said:

YOU: "Oh no! I just sinned! I've lost my salvation and I'm on my way to hell! I repent! I repent and accept Jesus as my savior again!.....Whew!...saved!

A mistaken straw man might say that. For, as was pointed out in post #67, salvation is lost for unrepentant sinning, laziness, or apostasy only at the judgment of the church at the second coming (Matthew 24:48-51, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

wyguy said:

How many times a day do you think you sin?

As many times as a Christian might sin in a day (cf. Luke 17:4, Matthew 18:21-22), his daily sins can be forgiven if he repents and asks God's forgiveness in his daily prayers (Matthew 6:11-12).

wyguy said:

Do you count sinning in your sleep?

Christians should ask for forgiveness if they commit a sin in a dream, for no one but themselves, their own lust, is responsible for them choosing to commit that sin (James 1:14-15).

wyguy said:

Just how many times must you crucify Christ afresh?

A Christian repenting from a sin doesn't crucify Christ afresh, but allows that sin to be forgiven (1 John 1:9) through faith in Christ's one-time crucifixion (Romans 3:25, Hebrews 10:12).

[Jedi4Yahweh]

What an anxious life you must live Bible2. It must be a terrible sight to see when you sin....

Christians should feel guilty and remorseful when the they sin. Its Christians that feel no guilt or remorse when they sin that I worry about. Yes God is quick to forgive if we confess and repent. Part of being repentant is showing remorse and guilt for what you did. Those who continue in sin with no guilt or remorse have no respect or fear of God.

[Bold Believer]

What an anxious life you must live Bible2. It must be a terrible sight to see when you sin....

Christians should feel guilty and remorseful when the they sin. Its Christians that feel no guilt or remorse when they sin that I worry about. Yes God is quick to forgive if we confess and repent. Part of being repentant is showing remorse and guilt for what you did. Those who continue in sin with no guilt or remorse have no respect or fear of God.

Which means they aren't saved.

What people are getting at Bible2 is that your theology negates the blood of Christ if one's salvation can be lost. The way you believe, a man like David would be lost. A man like Abraham would be lost. Perhaps you are not explaining something quite right?

[lekh l'kha]

What an anxious life you must live Bible2. It must be a terrible sight to see when you sin....

Christians should feel guilty and remorseful when the they sin. Its Christians that feel no guilt or remorse when they sin that I worry about. Yes God is quick to forgive if we confess and repent. Part of being repentant is showing remorse and guilt for what you did. Those who continue in sin with no guilt or remorse have no respect or fear of God.

Which means they aren't saved.

What people are getting at Bible2 is that your theology negates the blood of Christ if one's salvation can be lost. The way you believe, a man like David would be lost. A man like Abraham would be lost. Perhaps you are not explaining something quite right?

How does one become a Christian?

By believing in Jesus Christ and His blood that was shed for my sins.

The key words are "believe"; "Jesus Christ" and "his blood".

"Believe" and "faith" are synonymous.

That's the faith that overcomes the world, the flesh and the devil:

"For everything that has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1Jn 5:4-5)

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death." (Rev 2:11)

"My sin" has nothing to do with the question "How does one become a Christian?", but everything to do with the words "His blood" and "His sanctifying work". Only the words "Believe", "Jesus Christ" and "His blood" answer the question "How does one become a Christian?"

There is a very, very thin line between licentiousness and legalism. But God knows the heart of each and every individual. We argue about this for naught.

[Guest]

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;

but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

>>>>>()<<<<<

wyguy said: God will NOT share the credit with you.

What is saying "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" (Matthew 25:21) if it's not giving some credit?

Strange As It May Seem To The Few, The Proud And The Mighty

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28 (NKJV)

Who Insistent Man's Sea Keeping Powers Are Sufficient

"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?

It is God that justifieth." Romans 8:33

When One Considers The Priceless Gift

Who is he that condemneth?

It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again,

who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:34

Paid For Believer's Salvation

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all,

how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Romans 8:32

We Deserve No

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say,

We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:10

Credit

>>>>>()<<<<<

That's like saying you keep repenting over and over your whole life, but in the split second before you get run over by a truck and killed you have a sinful thought and go straight to hell.

If saved people commit a sin, Jesus will give them time to repent

Curiously As It May Appear To Some Watching The Child Of God Stumbling While Walking In Faith

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life,

nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth,

nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God,

which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:37-29

It Is Finished

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished:

and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30

Amen!

>>>>>()<<<<<

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Truly Blessed

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;

but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:16

Love, Your Brother Joe

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalms 103:1

[Bible2]

Bold Believer said:

What people are getting at Bible2 is that your theology negates the blood of Christ if one's salvation can be lost.

How does the loss of salvation negate the blood of Christ?

Faith in his blood only remits sins that are past (Romans 3:25), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7). His blood doesn't remit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29).

So a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9), just as the Bible shows that a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his will to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9), or if he wrongly employs his will to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4). A saved person can in the end be cut off the same as an unbeliever if he doesn't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). A saved person can in the end have his name blotted out of the book of life if he doesn't overcome (Revelation 3:5).

Bold Believer said:

The way you believe, a man like David would be lost. A man like Abraham would be lost.

Why?

Bold Believer said:

Perhaps you are not explaining something quite right?

Like what?

[Bible2]

FresnoJoe said:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;

but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

Amen.

But 1 Corinthians 1:18 doesn't mean that we can't lose our salvation (1 Corinthians 9:27).

FresnoJoe said:

Strange As It May Seem To The Few, The Proud And The Mighty

Christians should avoid arguing ad hominem (2 Timothy 2:24).

FresnoJoe said:

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:28 (NKJV)

Amen.

But John 10:28 doesn't mean that we can't lose our salvation (John 15:2,6).

John 10:28-29 means that no one outside of a saved person can take him out of God's hand. For John 10:28-29 doesn't say that saved people are imprisoned in God's hand, that they can't wrongly employ their will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Matthew 24:9-13, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Also, John 10:28-29 doesn't say that God himself can't in the end cast saved people out of his hand, that they can't in the end lose their salvation, if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their will to commit sin without repentance (1 Corinthians 9:27, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 24:48-51, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20, Hebrews 5:9), or by wrongly employing their will to become utterly lazy without repentance (John 15:2, Matthew 25:26,30, Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9).

FresnoJoe said:

Who Insistent Man's Sea Keeping Powers Are Sufficient

What do you mean here?

FresnoJoe said:

"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?

It is God that justifieth." Romans 8:33

When One Considers The Priceless Gift

Who is he that condemneth?

It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again,

who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:34

Paid For Believer's Salvation

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all,

how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Romans 8:32

Amen.

But Romans 8:32-34 doesn't mean that we can't lose our salvation (Romans 8:13, Romans 11:20-22).

FresnoJoe said:

We Deserve No

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say,

We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:10

Credit

But what is saying "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" (Matthew 25:21) if it's not giving some credit?

FresnoJoe said:

Curiously As It May Appear To Some Watching The Child Of God Stumbling While Walking In Faith

What do you mean here?

FresnoJoe said:

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life,

nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth,

nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God,

which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:37-29

Amen.

But Romans 8:37-39 doesn't mean that we can't lose our salvation (Romans 8:13, Romans 11:20-22).

The earlier verse of Romans 8:28 sets up two conditions for the rest of the passage (Romans 8:28-39): the passage applies to (1) them who are the called according to God's purpose, the elect (Romans 8:33), and who are also (2) them that love God. So the passage applies only to those elect who continue to actually love God, which means those who continue to actually obey him (1 John 5:3). The elect, even after they get saved, can wrongly employ their will to stop obeying God, which means to stop loving him (John 14:24, Matthew 24:12). They need to be careful to keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21) and continue in his goodness (Romans 11:22) by continuing in faithful obedience to him (John 14:21), if they don't want God to ultimately cut them off (Romans 11:22, John 15:2) and cast them away (1 Corinthians 9:27, John 15:6).

Romans 8:37-39 means that nothing outside of a saved person's own free-willed actions can separate him from God's love. For Romans 8:37-39 in no way contradicts all the other passages of the Bible which make it so clear that a saved person himself can wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. (These passages were listed above in reply to the reference to John 10:28.)

FresnoJoe said:

It Is Finished

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished:

and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30

Amen!

Amen.

But John 19:30 doesn't mean that we can't lose our salvation.

FresnoJoe said:

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Truly Blessed

Amen.

But John 3:3 doesn't mean that we can't lose our salvation (John 15:2,6).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. Just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation:

For initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matthew 24:9-13, Luke 8:13, John 15:6, Hebrews 6:4-8, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2).

Also, even if they do continue in good works, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin they might commit to the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Hebrews 5:9), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 24:48-51, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46). Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome (Revelation 3:5), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

An example of saved people "overcoming" <G3528> (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" <G3528> (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those saved people who will be willing to be killed by the coming Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their lives during the coming worldwide persecution against Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and the devil by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11). But it's also possible for Christians to fail to "overcome", and so in the end to lose their salvation, if they are "fearful" (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured or killed (Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:4-5, Hebrews 2:15, Revelation 2:10) to the point where they will wrongly employ their will to renounce Jesus Christ and his gospel, to commit apostasy, in order to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38, 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

(Continued) (Due to the limit on the number of quoted blocks of text)

Edited August 25, 2010 by Bible2

[Bible2]

(Continued)

FresnoJoe said:

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;

but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:16

Amen.

But Romans 8:16 doesn't mean that we can't lose our salvation (Romans 8:13, Romans 11:20-22).

Some Christians at the judgment of the church (2 Corinthians 5:10-11, Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) will ultimately lose their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:48-51), or because of unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or because of apostasy (Mark 8:35-38). That's the reason why Christians have a "terror" of the coming judgment of the church (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they need to remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12, 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

FresnoJoe said:

Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalms 103:1

Amen.

FresnoJoe said (in signature):

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (John 5:24-25)

Amen.

But John 5:24 doesn't mean that we can't lose our salvation (John 15:2,6).

What John 5:24 means is that a saved person won't come into condemnation, as in the loss of salvation, so long as he continues to believe to the end (John 15:6, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14). And a true, continued belief requires continued works (John 15:2, James 2:26).

[Guest]

You Have Two Choices

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

You Will Either Accept The Work Of Christ And Yield To Become His Workmanship

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: John 3:36(a)

Or You Will Remain A Self Made-Man

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36(b)

Your Choice

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Choose Wisely

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18

And Be Blessed Beloved

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:17

Love, Joe

[wyguy]

A mistaken straw man might say that. For, as was pointed out in post #67, salvation is lost for unrepentant sinning, laziness, or apostasy

Gimmie an L! Gimmie an E! Gimmie a G! Gimmie an A! Gimmie an L! Gimmie an I-S-M!

What does it spell?

LEGALISM!

What you're all about is nothing but works-righteousness. You take the focus off what Christ has done and put it all upon YOU and your WORKS.

Again, the whole idea of a believer having to keep begging for forgiveness for what has already been forgiven at the cross (ALL of their sins) is a slap in the face to justification through Christ's finished work of redemption.

The saved person has been saved by the grace, that is the unmerited favor, of God; Salvation is a gift which a person has received by faith; Since he never began to deserve it, therefore he cannot keep it by deserving it! And since, even to the end of the person's earthly life, he must go on coming short of the glory of God, which would forfeit his salvation if it was forfeitable; Therefore, if any person is ever finally saved at all, it must be by God's power alone and not by any of his own meritorious works or deservings.

Your works didn't earn you salvation, so your works aren't going to keep your salvation.

Jesus didn't die on the cross to share the credit with you.