Mary.

[Guest LadyC]

and if it's not backed up by scripture, then by what authority are we to know the validity of something?

scripture doesn't say we have to back up everything by scripture alone, but it surely warns about adding to or taking away from what IS stated in scripture!

i guess i'll just keep on being narrow minded. at least then i know where i can turn for answers that are infallible. one source. God's word.

[Orr v'emet]

i guess i'm just narrow minded. if it can't be backed up by scripture, i have no reason  to believe it.

perhaps ....

yet even Scripture ITSELF doesn't say that ALL MUST be backed up by SCRIPTURE alone.

if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Matt 18:17

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." Luke 10:16

I cannot believe you are going there....what does (should) the church teach? The bible.

Where do we hear God's voice? Through the Bible.

The bible is the only book that is God-breathed. It is in and of itself the final authority. All other commentaries, "traditions" whatever should be evaluated in light of scripture, THE HOLY BIBLE.

[ServingHim]

QUOTE (nebula @ Aug 23 2004, 05:23 AM)

Yet what made Mary to be without sin?

[ServingHim]

ANOTHER STUDY to CONSIDER

[Orr v'emet]

yep, Adam was sinless and perfect until he ate of the fruit. From that time on every person was born with a sinful nature and in need of God's forgivenes. With that said. I will keep the rest of my comments to myself.

[ServingHim]

yep, Adam was sinless and perfect until he ate of the fruit.  From that time on every person was born with a sinful nature and in need of God's forgivenes.  With that said.  I will keep the rest of my comments to myself.

have you ever thought that perhaps God 'SAVED' Mary BEFORE she was born?!

Thus says the LORD who made you, who formed you from the womb and will help you: Isaiah 44:2 (RSV)

[Guest Called]

yep, Adam was sinless and perfect until he ate of the fruit.

[BobTriez]

Thus says the LORD who made you,  who formed you from the womb and will help you:  Isaiah 44:2 (RSV)

Please, if you're going to quote scripture, at least put it into context. The Chapter/Verse you quote ? I fail to see your point looking at the entire chapter....you have a Bible ( I assume ) so I'll save the trouble of posting all 28 verses, but I will post the first five.....just so you can see what I mean ? And do tell me how this is relevant to the discussion please ( what does this have to do with Mary being "sinless" as you falsely purport ? )

God bless,

Bob

Isaiah 44:1-5

Israel the Chosen

1 "But now listen, O Jacob, my servant,

Israel, whom I have chosen.

2 This is what the LORD says-

he who made you, who formed you in the womb,

and who will help you:

Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant,

Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land,

and streams on the dry ground;

I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring,

and my blessing on your descendants.

4 They will spring up like grass in a meadow,

like poplar trees by flowing streams.

5 One will say, 'I belong to the LORD ';

another will call himself by the name of Jacob;

still another will write on his hand, 'The LORD's,'

and will take the name Israel.

[Guest dove2]

Was Mary immaculately conceived? YES, she was!

Did I misunderstand this or did you mean it different than I took it?

Mary was not immaculately concieved. Jesus was conceived. If someone else has already addressed this then I missed it.

[Yahsway]

Adam was created without sin. True. Eve was created without sin. True.

Gen 3:5 Lie from satan. Her eyes would be opened and she would be like God, knowing good and evil.

So by DISOBEDIANCE of Eve, we inherit origional sin, eternal seperation, death from God.

Eve was not created evil or sinful. She was made perfect. Her DISOBEDIANCE brought in origional sin to us all. The Adamic nature.

Mary, the mother of our savior Yeshua(Jesus) was born under that same curse of sin. But it was not the angel of darkness, that ole serpent who spoke to her, but an angel of light from our Father who told her of the Fathers plan. The difference between her and Eve was Marys OBEDIANCE, "be it unto me according to thy word"

So by OBEDIANCE of Mary, we inherit eternal life thru Yeshua or Messiah.

Mary was not born sinless. She was made perfect by her OBEDIANCE to God, and thru the redeemtive work of Yeshua.

If Mary was born of immaculate conception, just as Yeshua was, then we have no Trinity. We would have God the Father, God the Son(Yeshua) God the Holy Spirit, and God the daughter(Mary).

The ark of the covenant symbolized Gods presence among His people in Old Testament times.

When Yeshua came to earth, born of a virgin, HE was that symbol of the ark.Immanuel,-God with us or in our presence.

If Mary was already sinless, being born of the Fathers seed, not like unto the rest of mankind, then shouldnt it have been Mary who died for the origional sins of mankind?

She was numbered as one of the followers as you said, She was in that upper-room as you said, recieving the baptisim of the holy Ghost. But why would she need it if she was already without spot or blemish? Yeshua had it. Wouldnt she have had it also? Yeshua said it was expediant that He go to the Father so He could send the Holy Spirit back to mankind. Why didnt Mary just give it to them by the laying on of hands?

Did the apostles and disciples pray thru Mary then or was this something that came many years later? I know prayer beads were used by pagans at that time, and are used today by budhists, muslims, wiccans and such. Why would Mary tell us to use pagan emplements of worship?

And baptisim was always practiced in the old Testament. It is called Mikveh in the Hebrew . John came Baptizing in the wilderness, not the temple, to prepare mens hearts for the coming of Messiah. Nothing about Mary here.

Grace and favor were also poured out by God to people in the Old Testament. Nothing new here either. Only it is by his grace thru our faith that we are saved thru His Son Yeshua. In the same way He poured grace out onto the Israelits to save them from Pharoah, thru their obediance and faith that if they put the blood over the doorposts the death angel would pass over them.

Job found grace and favor also. Job 10:12

We all who are born of Him and His spirit find grace and favor. It is bestowed on all who are His OBEDIANT ones.

Read Jerm. 16:19-21 "O LORD, MY STRENGTH AND MY FORTRESS, AND MY REFUGE IN THE DAY OF AFFLICTION, THE "GENTILES" SHALL COME UNTO THEE FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH,AND SHALL SAY, SURELY OUR FATHERS HAVE INHERITED LIES, VANITY, AND THINGS WHERIN THERE IS NO PROFIT. SHALL A MAN MAKE GODS UNTO HIMSELF, AND THEY ARE NO GODS? THEREFORE, BEHOLD, I WILL THIS ONCE CAUSE THEM TO KNOW, I WILL CAUSE THEM TO KNOW MINE HAND AND MY MIGHT; AND THEY SHALL KNOW THAT MY NAME IS THE LORD."